The Double Standards Against Superman

[Human Torch]

My problem is that most modern versions of Superman always feel like forced attempts to make him "edgy" or "modern" or "human". They're trying too hard.

I think people will, for the most part, come to like a different/modern interpretation of something as long as the presentation's right.

Much like MOS, "Skyfall" and the Doctor Who episode "Day of the Doctor" were both big anniversary projects. Skyfall and Day of the Doctor took their respective franchises to new places and were critically praised. IMO, its inaccurate to say MOS gets bashed solely because it tried to do something new.

Bingo.

 

[Human Torch]

Y'know,having just watched the film again last night,I think it's fair to say the U.S armed forces were every bit as reckless firing on a small city street,but I've yet to hear that criticism.How sure were they that the civilians were clear?At least we know Supe tried to clear the Smallville streets,and presumably knew they were clear.(X-ray vision,you know)

 

[Darkstar]

It might be so, but when you portray Superman as one that wouldn't save his father's life - no matter what - when he could have, then something's off, and goes further mere nostalgia.

Maybe Jonathan Kent wanted to die to show his son something (humans can be heroes too), or maybe, just maybe, he didn't want his son's powers shown out in the open brazenly just like that. FWIW, it was a great sacrifice to be made, and Jonathan Kent died a hero.

*shakes head* I'm not even sure some of the folks who have a problem with the double standard are actually Superman fans. A lot of them seem very uninformed to be claiming that.

Whatever it is, they're acting in the same way that I've described; another way that they're acting is like religious foundamentalists (that's right, foundamentalists-as per what Irshad Manji said about how Muslims act with regards to Islam in her book The Trouble With Islam Today.) Both treat what Superman does/Star Trek is as some kind of religion, with sacred texts/rituals that aren't to be violated, with the minor proviso that Trekfans view Gene Roddenberry as a visionary who had a view of Star Trek that's being violated by Abrams, Orci, & Kurtzman (he didn't really have a vision-old age, time and his own ego got to him to the point where he believed his own press spun [partially] by him and by fans.) Superman fans believe that Snyder violated Superman's basic tenets by having him kill (forgetting how he's had to do so in the comics a few times)-to me, it's all the same.

 

[Lord]

Skyfall and Day of the Doctor were so well received by most fans because they were celebrations of their respective franchises, going the classic route, The Man of Steel tried to be different and it still wasn't that good in that, people are acting as if the critics are Superman 70s fan at heart, which just isn't true, that's generalising the criticism.

Y'know,having just watched the film again last night,I think it's fair to say the U.S armed forces were every bit as reckless firing on a small city street,but I've yet to hear that criticism.How sure were they that the civilians were clear?At least we know Supe tried to clear the Smallville streets,and presumably knew they were clear.(X-ray vision,you know)

The armed forces aren't Superman, armies are generally known for being destructive, expecially in movie, while Superman is supposed to be the oposite.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Maybe Jonathan Kent wanted to die to show his son something (humans can be heroes too), or maybe, just maybe, he didn't want his son's powers shown out in the open brazenly just like that. FWIW, it was a great sacrifice to be made, and Jonathan Kent died a hero.

That's fine and all, but it has nothing to do with what I said. I don't question Pa Kent's intentions (although there were like dozens of ways to do it without dying), but Superman's actions. I doubt he would let someone die, let alone his father. Even if there was no choice - which is not the case - he wouldn't allow someone to die because of him.

 

[charl_huntress]

Does the fact he wasn't Superman at that point bear no relevance? You keep saying Superman would have saved his father, but he wasn't Superman then.

 

[The Batman]

Skyfall and Day of the Doctor were so well received by most fans because they were celebrations of their respective franchises, going the classic route, The Man of Steel tried to be different and it still wasn't that good in that, people are acting as if the critics are Superman 70s fan at heart, which just isn't true, that's generalising the criticism.

While Day of the Doctor and Skyfall were celebrations, they were by no means taking a classic route.

Day of the Doctor mainly focuses on a storyline that started with the rebooted series, and throws out everything you thought you knew about the Doctor by introducing an incarnation that we didn't even know about. The mere fact that the episode itself focused mainly on The Doctor made it atypical.


Though there are some pretty locales, Skyfall mostly takes place in rainy gray london, and ends in foggy Scotland, compared to most Bond films that are mostly centered around exotic locales. It literally ends with them destroying the classic James Bond car....if that wasn't a blatant metaphor for "out with the old", I don't know what was. Not to mention killing off M, making moneypenny black, and making Q a tech geek instead of an old man.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

Does the fact he wasn't Superman at that point bear no relevance? You keep saying Superman would have saved his father, but he wasn't Superman then.

His values, holding life as sacred, those things didn't come with the suit, you see. It's not a super-power that goes away with kryptonite. It's who he is. I mean, you don't even need to be Superman/Clark Kent to go and save your father if you can. But if you are Superman/Clark Kent, that goes double.

 

[charl_huntress]

His values, holding life as sacred, those things didn't come with the suit, you see. It's not a super-power that goes away with kryptonite. It's who he is. I mean, you don't even need to be Superman/Clark Kent to go and save your father if you can. But if you are Superman/Clark Kent, that goes double.

I just said this in another thread, but it feels right as a response here too.

Well it's certainly your right to have that opinion. One thing I think people are failing to see, and it's funny because I'm literally watching Jonathon die on my screen right now, is maybe the world and Clark weren't ready. Listening to Clark when he's in the car before the tornado, he sounds like an immature child and not someone who is ready to be a great hero or savior. So, Jon's sacrifice to prevent Clark from revealing himself was twofold because the world wasn't ready and neither was Clark.

Day of the Doctor mainly focuses on a storyline that started with the rebooted series, and throws out everything you thought you knew about the Doctor by introducing an incarnation that we didn't even know about. The mere fact that the episode itself focused mainly on The Doctor made it atypical.

I just want to add I really enjoy reading people talking about Dr. Who. The posts are always so insightful and well-thought...I feel bad I have never seen one episode of that show. Not one.

 

[The Batman]

^ Doctor Who is one of the few shows I still bother to watch. Really fun, imaginative, witty, varied, adventurous.

Honestly, I've always felt that Superman should essentially be an American version of Doctor Who.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

I just said this in another thread, but it feels right as a response here too.

Well it's certainly your right to have that opinion. One thing I think people are failing to see, and it's funny because I'm literally watching Jonathon die on my screen right now, is maybe the world and Clark weren't ready. Listening to Clark when he's in the car before the tornado, he sounds like an immature child and not someone who is ready to be a great hero or savior. So, Jon's sacrifice to prevent Clark from revealing himself was twofold because the world wasn't ready and neither was Clark.

But again, it's not even about what was on Pa Ken't mind. Any human being (I'm talking in general, there are specific cases of course), specially those who love human life and their parents, which is more often than not, would do something to prevent their death.

So, whatever Pa Kent's sacrifice mean or symbolizes is irrelevant here. There was simply no reason at all why Clark didn't save him. And it's not like he didn't care, as he was crying. He just stood there without doing a thing. Someone (Snyder I presume) didn't even think the scene through. Apparently - and this is my personal opinion - they were too in love with the idea of adding as much tragedy as they could, to even solve the logic of the scene.

Add to that that Pa Kent's idea was to stop Clark from saving people... and that's exactly what he did soon afterwards (oil rig). So Pa Kent's death was left without any gravity.

 

[charl_huntress]

^ Doctor Who is one of the few shows I still bother to watch. Really fun, imaginative, witty, varied, adventurous.

Honestly, I've always felt that Superman should essentially be an American version of Doctor Who.

OMG...someone else said that to me recently but I have to admit I am daunted by how many seasons there are. I have Netflix, so I'm always tempted to watch an episode here or there, but then I start to feel like young Clark in MOS during that scene at the school. "The world's too big, Mom". t:

But again, it's not even about what was on Pa Ken't mind. Any human being (I'm talking in general, there are specific cases of course), specially those who love human life and their parents, which is more often than not, would do something to prevent their death.

So, whatever Pa Kent's sacrifice mean or symbolizes is irrelevant here. There was simply no reason at all why Clark didn't save him. And it's not like he didn't care, as he was crying. He just stood there without doing a thing. Someone (Snyder I presume) didn't even think the scene through. Apparently - and this is my personal opinion - they were too in love with the idea of adding as much tragedy as they could, to even solve the logic of the scene.

Add to that that Pa Kent's idea was to stop Clark from saving people... and that's exactly what he did soon afterwards (oil rig). So Pa Kent's death was left without any gravity.

The oil rig scene happened before the scene with Pa Kent dying. F.Y.I.

Perhaps it would have played better if Clark tried to save Jon, and Martha restrained him. I can see why some have an issue with the execution. This seems to be what I usually hear, and the blame is generally directed at Snyder.

For me, the scene didn't play badly, but I do hear and acknowledge it could have played with more resonance. Yet, I think it has to be acknowledged at that time "Superman" did not exist, and this was just a young man who had all the power in the world, but he couldn't do anything with it because he really wasn't ready to be that hero. I think it's also fair to point out Clark was not in the same emotional place as a full-fledged Superman would be.

 

[The Batman]

OMG...someone else said that to me recently but I have to admit I am daunted by how many seasons there are. I have Netflix, so I'm always tempted to watch an episode here or there, but then I start to feel like young Clark in MOS during that scene at the school. "The world's too big, Mom". t:

Lol...

Most people just watch the rebooted series, which is only 7 seasons so far, at 13-14 episodes a season. The original series is pretty spotty overall from everything I've seen/heard, so I wouldn't check that out unless you become a die hard fan.

But yeah, I would just start from the new series. You won't be lost.

 

[charl_huntress]

Lol...

Most people just watch the rebooted series, which is only 7 seasons so far, at 13-14 episodes a season. The original series is pretty spotty overall from everything I've seen/heard, so I wouldn't check that out unless you become a die hard fan.

But yeah, I would just start from the new series. You won't be lost.

Okay...I think I will. I'll start off light.

 

[Lord]

^ Doctor Who is one of the few shows I still bother to watch. Really fun, imaginative, witty, varied, adventurous.

Honestly, I've always felt that Superman should essentially be an American version of Doctor Who.

I hope not, British should keep Dr.Who in their pants

 

[The Batman]

Okay...I think I will. I'll start off light.

I look forward to seeing your reaction. The great thing about the show is, if you don't necessarily like a producer's take on it, you might like someone elses.

I hope not, British should keep Dr.Who in their pants

Eh, a lot of shows could learn something from Doctor Who.

 

[Lord]

I'm just kidding Though i only watched the first season and really disliked it, do the later ones get better?

 

[charl_huntress]

I look forward to seeing your reaction. The great thing about the show is, if you don't necessarily like a producer's take on it, you might like someone elses.

I will post my thoughts in the Dr. Who thread. There are six seasons currently available on Netflix. I'm going to watch the first episode in a little bit. It's a non-cooking night, so once the pizza arrives then it's on and poppin'. Thanks again for the recommendation.

 

[Senator Pleasury]

The oil rig scene happened before the scene with Pa Kent dying. F.Y.I.

But... you know that those events happen after Pa Kent's death... right?

Meaning that Pa Kent died so Clark wouldn't save pople exposing his identity. And after he died Clark... well, went on saving people showing his face anyways.

Perhaps it would have played better if Clark tried to save Jon, and Martha restrained him. I can see why some have an issue with the execution. This seems to be what I usually hear, and the blame is generally directed at Snyder.

I guess I blame Goyer as well. And I get Cavill was just doing what he was told, but seriosly, didn't he think at one point... 'so ok, I'm Superman, I'm super-powered, I hold life as sacred... and yet for no reason I won't do anything to save my father' life.'

For me, the scene didn't play badly, but I do hear and acknowledge it could have played with more resonance. Yet, I think it has to be acknowledged at that time "Superman" did not exist, and this was just a young man who had all the power in the world, but he couldn't do anything with it because he really wasn't ready to be that hero. I think it's also fair to point out Clark was not in the same emotional place as a full-fledged Superman would be.

Once again, the fact that "Superman" existed or not is irrelevant. All Clark knew was that his father was about to die and that he could save him. You don't need a superhero training or the correct emotional state to understand that.

And in fact, it's not that "he couldn't do anything with hi powers." He could. So much so that Clark had in fact saved people before (the school bus incident).

So it's not even that he was "not ready," no matter how much the movie repeat that. The only problem the movie actually shows is that he wasn't able to use his super powers without exposing his identity.

As for Pa Kent's relevance, the movie shows that Clark forgot about what his father wanted to achieve pretty quick. After Pa Kent's death, Clark went on to save people, showing his face and all. What happened in between? How did Clark put his father's death aside? Snyder and Goyer just didn't tell us.

 

[The Batman]

I'm just kidding Though i only watched the first season and really disliked it, do the later ones get better?

It depends:

1. Was it the first season of the old show or the new one?

2. Assuming its the latter, what didn't you like about the first series?

Seasons 1-4 are under Russell T Davies, so if you didnt like whole thing, you might be better off restarting at season 5, where a new producer takes over.

I will post my thoughts in the Dr. Who thread. There are six seasons currently available on Netflix. I'm going to watch the first episode in a little bit. It's a non-cooking night, so once the pizza arrives then it's on and poppin'. Thanks again for the recommendation.

Glad to be of service

 

[Lord]

The new one, i didn't like the whole look, which felt really cheap, from the looks of it even cheaper than some of the older episodes, didn't like the explanation for the "Bad Wolf", not only did i find that sub-plot kinda boring, but the resolution was even more half-a****d, unlike many i'm not a big fan of Rose, neither of the Doctor, in some of the episodes it seemed like he was more willing to help women than men, or maybe it was because the people who were the most adventurous and went with him were women.

I like random stuff, as long as the mythology makes sence, which is why i enjoy Star Trek: The Original Series and One Piece so much, but some of the stuff was just a little too childish and cheesy.

 

[GremlinZilla89]

The new one, i didn't like the whole look, which felt really cheap, from the looks of it even cheaper than some of the older episodes, didn't like the explanation for the "Bad Wolf", not only did i find that sub-plot kinda boring, but the resolution was even more half-a****d, unlike many i'm not a big fan of Rose, neither of the Doctor, in some of the episodes it seemed like he was more willing to help women than men, or maybe it was because the people who were the most adventurous and went with him were women.

I like random stuff, as long as the mythology makes sence, which is why i enjoy Star Trek: The Original Series and One Piece so much, but some of the stuff was just a little too childish and cheesy.

This hurts me.

 

[The Batman]

The new one, i didn't like the whole look, which felt really cheap, from the looks of it even cheaper than some of the older episodes, didn't like the explanation for the "Bad Wolf", not only did i find that sub-plot kinda boring, but the resolution was even more half-a****d, unlike many i'm not a big fan of Rose, neither of the Doctor, in some of the episodes it seemed like he was more willing to help women than men, or maybe it was because the people who were the most adventurous and went with him were women.

I like random stuff, as long as the mythology makes sence, which is why i enjoy Star Trek: The Original Series and One Piece so much, but some of the stuff was just a little too childish and cheesy.

Yeah, I would definitely check out Series 5 onwards. The look is much, much better and The Doctor is more likable.

 

[Lord]

This hurts me.

Sorry t:

Yeah, I would definitely check out Series 5 onwards. The look is much, much better and The Doctor is more likable.

Thanks, before i started it i had this as the image of what i thought the Doctor was like

The Doctor ended up being nothing like i was expecting Does Season 5 offer a kind of restart for the series besides just a new show runner?

 

[charl_huntress]

But... you know that those events happen after Pa Kent's death... right?Meaning that Pa Kent died so Clark wouldn't save pople exposing his identity. And after he died Clark... well, went on saving people showing his face anyways.

Yes, I do realize that, but the way you phrased it sounded like you meant the scene happened before it in the movie. That is what I was correcting.

I guess I blame Goyer as well. And I get Cavill was just doing what he was told, but seriosly, didn't he think at one point... 'so ok, I'm Superman, I'm super-powered, I hold life as sacred... and yet for no reason I won't do anything to save my father' life.'

I think the point I am trying to make is the values you attribute to Superman did not exist in Clark at that time. He did value life, which is obviously shown by him saving the kids and Pete when he was younger, but he also valued his father's advice. He believed what Jon told him when he said the world was not ready, and he did not act because of that, even though he really wanted to. I would also argue at that time he wasn't even emotionally ready for that sort of responsibility. The scene inside the car before the tornado is proof of this. He sounds and is acting like an immature man-child.

Once again, the fact that "Superman" existed or not is irrelevant. All Clark knew was that his father was about to die and that he could save him. You don't need a superhero training or the correct emotional state to understand that. And in fact, it's not that "he couldn't do anything with hi powers." He could. So much so that Clark had in fact saved people before (the school bus incident).

I see what you are saying, but up until that point every time he did save someone and put himself at risk of being exposed, he was always admonished by Jonathon NOT to do that. Clark, in fact, wanted to save him, but Jon didn't want him to because he would have exposed himself which was what he had been warning Clark against his whole life. Jonathon firmly believed one day the world would be ready (unfortunately it wasn't that day), but as he told Clark when he was younger, the secret was bigger then just him. It had global implications, and Clark respected and understood that.

I understand you feel the execution of this was poorly done, and it didn't "sell" it enough for you to buy it, but it was all there in the movie.

So it's not even that he was "not ready," no matter how much the movie repeat that. The only problem the movie actually shows is that he wasn't able to use his super powers without exposing his identity.

As for Pa Kent's relevance, the movie shows that Clark forgot about what his father wanted to achieve pretty quick. After Pa Kent's death, Clark went on to save people, showing his face and all. What happened in between? How did Clark put his father's death aside? Snyder and Goyer just didn't tell us.

Again, exposing his powers would have led to him being exposed as an alien. That's no small matter. Try to look at the consequences that would have occurred if he did reveal himself. Jonathon would have been alive, but likely he and Martha would have been interned, and Clark would have been hunted by the U.S. government and the world police. If Clark would have revealed himself then they all would have lost their lives in a way, so that is why Jon made the sacrifice he did. It was to protect Clark...which is what he had been doing since he found him in the corn field.

Also, I don't think Clark put Jon's words or actions aside. He just continued to do what he had always did, which was try to help without getting caught, even though doing so put him at great risk and prevented him from forming meaningful relationships. He still tried to help, but he also still respected and believed in his father's words, which is basically what he was telling Lois at the graveyard.