World The Duality of Clark Kent / Superman

[hammy]

I know it's been discussed before, but it came up in another thread and I thought it was worthy of exploration. In your opinion, *Who* is Superman? Is he Clark Kent and being Superman is something he does on the side, or is he Superman and Clark is just his disguise?

What do you think? Nature or nurture?

 

[Andy C.]

I've always preferred it the Pre-Crisis/STM/Birthright version of it.

'Superman' is Kal-El doing what he's been raised to do: help people. While the Kents instilled that morality in him, and while his later knowledge of Krypton spurred him into donning the costume, the choice to use his abilities was something he did on his own. Even if he didn't have powers, he'd still be the kind of guy who'd lend a hand wherever he could. Bruce Wayne became Batman out of need for revenge. Peter Parker became Spider-Man out of guilt. But Superman actively chose to be Superman, because that's more or less who he's always been.

'Clark' (at least, Clark in Metropolis) is his way of trying to fit in with the human race, so he can continue to understand them and be like them. Keeping the name Ma and Pa gave him --as well as continuing his interest in journalism, pursuing a romantic relationship with Lois Lane, etc-- serve to remind him of how everyone else looks at the world, and of the life he could have had if he was fully human. But at the end of the day, he's not human, and the life he's built in Metropolis (except for his marriage to Lois) is all an elaborate fiction to fool not just everyone else, but himself as well.

So yeah, Superman's the real guy, Clark's the disguise. Otherwise, he's just another cape-and-tights job.

 

[Jack Rabbit]

Yeah. I liked the rationale Waid used in Birthright.

Growing up, Clark Kent was always an outgoing, charismatic individual who just wanted to help people, but was often shunned, or frightened people when he did so with his abilities.

So he created the guise of "Metropolis" Clark Kent to hide who he was, by becoming a dull, somewhat unextraordinary person.

Superman is a symbol, a superhuman people can relate to as a savior, rather than a strange man.

 

[CLARKY]

I know it's been discussed before, but it came up in another thread and I thought it was worthy of exploration. In your opinion, *Who* is Superman? Is he Clark Kent and being Superman is something he does on the side, or is he Superman and Clark is just his disguise?
What do you think? Nature or nurture?

Personally, I think Clark is the real persona. Not as dumb as the Donner movies make him look like but more like the cartoon. Clark like journalism, try his best professionally speaking, and live his life. Superman appears when Clark see something needed his help, and in order to avoid the whole front page hero stuff, he disguise as Superman. The guy in red and blue. When it goes beyond saving or rescue, for example talking to someone, or talking to the JLA, etc ... he's Clark, but just in the volunteer part of his personnality.

I think it depends how you take the character : Kal El, Superman or Clark. I choose Clark, but I'm sure the three solutions work fine.

BTW, I like your vision a lot Andy.

 

[ck51100]

This is one of those questions that I have flip-flopped on in the past. I see both sides of the argument and I really think that both sides can come off as believable. Honestly if you think about it I think that both Clark and Superman are a bit of an act. When he is Clark Kent, he can never be himself. Sure, he tries to be as normal as possible but there is always this white elephant in the room. There is always that secret that Clark can never tell. He has to hide who he is and what he can do. He has to be on guard at all time that he doesn't give away his secret. He has to constantly keep people at a distance for the danger that they may find out. I think that when he is Superman, then he can somewhat be more of himself physically, but there is still that disconnect from society. Who is the real guy? I really don't know. I tend to lean towards the whole "Superman, who disguised as Clark Kent" thing, but then again I really could be wrong. This really is one of the great philosophical arguments of our time.

 

[Gilpesh]

Kill Bill Vol 2...

Explains everything about this subject.

As you know, l'm quite keen on comic books. Especially the ones about superheroes. I find the whole mythology surrounding superheroes fascinating. Take my favorite superhero, Superman. Not a great comic book. Not particularly well-drawn. But the mythology... The mythology is not only great, it's unique. Now, a staple of the superhero mythology is, there's the superhero and there's the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When that character wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic Superman stands alone. Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears - the glasses, the business suit - that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us. Clark Kent is how Superman views us. And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent. He's weak... he's unsure of himself... he's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race.

 

[CLARKY]

^I disagree a litltle with that, I thought it was OK but the whole "this is how Superman see us" thing was wrong.

This is one of those questions that I have flip-flopped on in the past. I see both sides of the argument and I really think that both sides can come off as believable. Honestly if you think about it I think that both Clark and Superman are a bit of an act. When he is Clark Kent, he can never be himself. Sure, he tries to be as normal as possible but there is always this white elephant in the room. There is always that secret that Clark can never tell. He has to hide who he is and what he can do. He has to be on guard at all time that he doesn't give away his secret. He has to constantly keep people at a distance for the danger that they may find out. I think that when he is Superman, then he can somewhat be more of himself physically, but there is still that disconnect from society. Who is the real guy? I really don't know. I tend to lean towards the whole "Superman, who disguised as Clark Kent" thing, but then again I really could be wrong.

I disagree a little about the "disconnect from people" thing but I agree with you. I see him a little like this, yeah. I mean, I see a unique and very thin connection with what I explained above.
Anyway, I agree with the "he can somewhat be more of himself physically" thing. If I follow what you said, the "real" clark is when he is at Smallville with his parents or at the Watchtower. When he is clark kent, the superguy.

This really is one of the great philosophical arguments of our time.

Yeah, good thread casey.

 

[Karem-Knight]

I think he's Kal-El, A bit of Clark Kent and a bit of Superman which are both acts that make Kal/Clark/Superman who he is.

 

[ck51100]

I disagree a little about the "disconnect from people" thing but I agree with you. I see him a little like this, yeah. I mean, I see a unique and very thin connection with what I explained above.
Anyway, I agree with the "he can somewhat be more of himself physically" thing. If I follow what you said, the "real" clark is when he is at Smallville with his parents or at the Watchtower. When he is clark kent, the superguy.

Exactly. Superman in not necessarily an act, but he can't be completely honest with everyone around him. Clark Kent, is not a complete act, but he can't be completely honest with everyone around him. The only time he can be himself is on the farm in Smallville, alone with Lois (in the comics), or when he is in the Watchtower. You know honestly, as cool as I think it'd be to have those powers in some ways it has to be a really lonely exsistence.

 

[Andy C.]

Definitely, and I think that's one of the big reasons I enjoyed Superman Returns so much. Despite all of its faults, it got one thing right in that it really pegged Big Blue as a tragic character, which is something most people never really see. No matter how much good he does, no matter how hard he tries to be like everyone else- even in the midst of other superheroes, Superman is someone who feels completely alone.

That's the part of Superman I think an awful lot of people (especially comic fans) can identify with, and it's kind of a wonder that it really didn't get touched on before.

 

[gillberg2k1]

He's Kal-El. That's the beauty of the whole story and I think it's something that a lot of people are missing. He isn't truly Superman or Clark Kent. He can't be either, as both are merely extensions of his experiences and what he's learned from human beings. It's a beautiful example of someone truly alone and from the outside looking in. These are simply his responses. So, much like an artist would be inspired by the beauty surrounding him, so is Kal-El.

The persona of Clark Kent originated as a form of protection. Mostly out of necessity. The Kents raised Kal-El as their own and in turn, attempted to assimilate him with his peers under that guise. This later evolved into the Clark Kent guise that now exists not to protect himself, but to protect those he loves. If Clark was raised as Kal-El and treated differently, the results could have been disastrous. We're talking about a "man" who could, if he so desired, destroy the entire world. But he doesn't... and there's a good reason, which leads into the other persona...

Superman. Superman, in my opinion, is Kal-El's response to the extraordinary untapped potential of the human race. Humans experience love, anger, pain, suffering, joy, and a multitude of emotions that make us who we are. Kal-El in turn knows that we, as humans, can do great, extraordinary things... Why? Because he's experienced them. He's seen it all around him, starting at the beginning with the Kents. Superman is his symbol, his representation of what we, as humans are capable of. WE are Superman. Kal-El merely embodies our desires to love, to take care of one another, and to be "more." It's this outsider's way of connecting with us. He makes the decision to take on that symbol because just as we believe in him, he believes in us. We ARE worth saving. We ARE worth fighting for.

 

[Cosmic]

That's the part of Superman I think an awful lot of people (especially comic fans) can identify with, and it's kind of a wonder that it really didn't get touched on before.

Well, Superman: the Movie did include this particular theme. You have young Clark as an outsider and misfit, his happy home life which is suddenly shattered, and then the scenes in the fortress, among others. I can't understand why people on these boards are forgetting it, or not seeing it in there.

 

[Andy C.]

True, I guess you're right. But once he puts the costume on, they hardly bring it up again. It's definitely there for the first act of the movie, but after that, it's almost like they just switched off that part of the character.

(And that, for the record, is the only time you'll ever hear me speaking negatively about STM)

 

[Steve Rogers]

I know it's been discussed before, but it came up in another thread and I thought it was worthy of exploration. In your opinion, *Who* is Superman? Is he Clark Kent and being Superman is something he does on the side, or is he Superman and Clark is just his disguise?

What do you think? Nature or nurture?

There have been many different approaches to this in the many different icarnations of Superman in the various forms of media over the years. That said my favorite tales involve Clark being who Kal El is. I don't like the idea of Clark Kent reporter at the Daily Planet being a disguise. I like the idea of Clark/Kal El/Superman having a passion for journalism--a small Mid Western farm boy come to the big city to chase his dream whhile juggling being Superman at the same time. That is why I hated Superman Returns. His own humanity was stripped and replaced with this God like version of Superman that was, not onl boring and one dimensional, but uneasy to relate to.

 

[hammy]

Hmm. Well, thanks everyone for your responses. CK, I agree with a lot of what you said. My personal take on it is somewhat complicated, but I think Superman is a complicated character, so I suppose that fits. The thing is, he has so many different sides to him and so many different fronts he has to put up. It must be a very stressful and lonely life.

This is going to sound corny but, to me, he is like water, in a way. H2O can be experienced in different forms, solid, liquid and vapor, but when you get right down to it, it's all the same molecule. That's almost how I would describe Clark/Kal-El/Superman. Each part of his personality is distinct and unique, but when you get right down to it, they are all the same person. It's just that person is struggling to juggle all these different public personas and still be true to himself and ultimately, to his destiny.

I don't want to believe that Clark is merely a facade. To me, he was Clark before he was Superman. He was even Clark before he was Kal - EL, in a way, because he was living as Clark Kent before all of that was revealed to him. And the person he was and is as Clark was heavily influenced by his middle American upbringing, thanks to the Kents. (and that's not to say that Jor - EL and Lara wouldn't have been good role models, but they were scientists and their frame of reference would have been different than the Kent's.) Anyway, he wouldn't have been Superman on Krypton so it's kind of a moot point. But because of the Kent's training, and perhaps even his own innate moral compass, here he is able to make the necessary judgments that allow him to do his work as Superman.

Now as for Superman, we all know he is only Superman because of the earth's special circumstances. He would have been just another average guy on Krypton, but here he can really shine and put his learned sense of right and wrong to good use. So here he is, thrust in to a role he never would have lived, otherwise. Maybe on Krypton he would have been a scientist, like his father, an astronaut like his mother or simply a Kryptonian plumber. t: We'll never know. But here, here, he gets to be a Super man with incredible powers. He gets to be everybody's favorite hero and literally carry out justice, rescue people and beat up the bad guys. Yet, sadly, even though he is adored by millions, he is still a tragically lonely figure who is the last son of his planet, unable to be with a Kryptonian woman, unable to have Kryptonian children, unable to even fully experience his own Kryptoninan - ness, while at the same time living with, interacting with, and even falling in love with a species he can't fully comprehend, and all while he is unable to reveal the other sides of his personality. That really breaks my heart for him.

Regardless of which way you see it, whether Clark is the "real" person and Superman is just his job/duty/disguise, or whether Kal-El/Superman is the real person and Clark Kent is the disguise, either way, he's living a lie for a good part of his life. As Clark Kent, he lives in constant fear of being discovered as Superman. As Superman, he lives in fear of being discovered as Clark Kent.

What a life.

 

[Cyrusbales]

Whoever says clark is superman's take on the human race is wrong. He was raised as clark, clark is who he is. Superman represents his, and humanity's ideals.

 

[Andy C.]

I always figured that that part of Clark became Superman, while he just carried the name over into the 'Metropolis Clark' disguise.

And at any rate, considering how many different interpretations there are of the Clark/Superman duality, I'd hardly say it's fair to call any one version "right" or "wrong."

 

[Dr. Fate]

I prefer the John Byrne version, Clark Kent is the real person, smart & assertive enough to believably get the job he has (there's no way in Hell the Reeve/Donner version of Clark would have ever gotten hired at the Daily Planet in real life), Superman is just a disguise he uses to help others on a larger scale. I prefer a Clark who is not afraid to be himself in his civilian life.

 

[CLARKY]

That's my interpretation too.

 

[ck51100]

Hmm. Well, thanks everyone for your responses. CK, I agree with a lot of what you said. My personal take on it is somewhat complicated, but I think Superman is a complicated character, so I suppose that fits. The thing is, he has so many different sides to him and so many different fronts he has to put up. It must be a very stressful and lonely life.

This is going to sound corny but, to me, he is like water, in a way. H2O can be experienced in different forms, solid, liquid and vapor, but when you get right down to it, it's all the same molecule. That's almost how I would describe Clark/Kal-El/Superman. Each part of his personality is distinct and unique, but when you get right down to it, they are all the same person. It's just that person is struggling to juggle all these different public personas and still be true to himself and ultimately, to his destiny.

I don't want to believe that Clark is merely a facade. To me, he was Clark before he was Superman. He was even Clark before he was Kal - EL, in a way, because he was living as Clark Kent before all of that was revealed to him. And the person he was and is as Clark was heavily influenced by his middle American upbringing, thanks to the Kents. (and that's not to say that Jor - EL and Lara wouldn't have been good role models, but they were scientists and their frame of reference would have been different than the Kent's.) Anyway, he wouldn't have been Superman on Krypton so it's kind of a moot point. But because of the Kent's training, and perhaps even his own innate moral compass, here he is able to make the necessary judgments that allow him to do his work as Superman.

Now as for Superman, we all know he is only Superman because of the earth's special circumstances. He would have been just another average guy on Krypton, but here he can really shine and put his learned sense of right and wrong to good use. So here he is, thrust in to a role he never would have lived, otherwise. Maybe on Krypton he would have been a scientist, like his father, an astronaut like his mother or simply a Kryptonian plumber. t: We'll never know. But here, here, he gets to be a Super man with incredible powers. He gets to be everybody's favorite hero and literally carry out justice, rescue people and beat up the bad guys. Yet, sadly, even though he is adored by millions, he is still a tragically lonely figure who is the last son of his planet, unable to be with a Kryptonian woman, unable to have Kryptonian children, unable to even fully experience his own Kryptoninan - ness, while at the same time living with, interacting with, and even falling in love with a species he can't fully comprehend, and all while he is unable to reveal the other sides of his personality. That really breaks my heart for him.

Regardless of which way you see it, whether Clark is the "real" person and Superman is just his job/duty/disguise, or whether Kal-El/Superman is the real person and Clark Kent is the disguise, either way, he's living a lie for a good part of his life. As Clark Kent, he lives in constant fear of being discovered as Superman. As Superman, he lives in fear of being discovered as Clark Kent.

What a life.

You're so wise casey. You make the rest of us sound so inferior. We bow to your wisdom t:

 

[hammy]

t:

 

[Billy Batson]

Hmm. Well, thanks everyone for your responses. CK, I agree with a lot of what you said. My personal take on it is somewhat complicated, but I think Superman is a complicated character, so I suppose that fits. The thing is, he has so many different sides to him and so many different fronts he has to put up. It must be a very stressful and lonely life.

This is going to sound corny but, to me, he is like water, in a way. H2O can be experienced in different forms, solid, liquid and vapor, but when you get right down to it, it's all the same molecule. That's almost how I would describe Clark/Kal-El/Superman. Each part of his personality is distinct and unique, but when you get right down to it, they are all the same person. It's just that person is struggling to juggle all these different public personas and still be true to himself and ultimately, to his destiny.

Bruce Lee encourage us to be like water, become what ever the situations call for, free and formless until a form is required.
The son of Jor-EL & Lara [SIZE=-1]Lor-Van is indeed like water, I do not believe the [/SIZE] triplicity (Clark/Kal-El/Superman) of Kal-EL's life on Earth is as complex for him as it would be for us. Kal-EL a complex being, I believe life would be difficult for him if he did not have the different persona's.
Being Clark Kent will become difficult much later in life when he out live all of his loved ones.
Then and only then will he become a tragically lonely figure.

 

[buggs0268]

Casey asked me to post this here from a conversation we had in private about this subject. Here is what I said:

Well I prefer the pre-crisis Clark because the purpose of the Clark Kent personae is simple. To be in a place where he had access to news first to be able to respond to disasters. The second is to do this in a personae that is different from Superman in every way. Hence the slouching, the un-coordination, etc. I read this book that DC put out on superman facts after STM, and the thing is, Reeves did exactly everything that Clark does in the comics as Clark. He researched the role.

I don't like the post crisis Clark as that is just Superman wearing glasses. I mean anyone would be "Hey Supes? Why do you call yourself Clark and work here?"

And in Superman 4, although a bad film, it shows some real gems in terms of the character touched in the comics. The scene were he reads about Superman telling the kid to drop dead and goes to the window. In that scene, you see his 3rd personality that you only saw in the fortress when he was talking to his dad in the white shirt in the donner cut. That isn't Clark. That isn't Superman (who is also a personae-the macho personae that still isn't him). You see Kal-El. The real him. That is who he truly is as a person. If there was no Superman or Clark, that is who you would see.

And when she said:

Ahh, okay. So you subscribe to the Kal El is the real guy concept.

I said

Yeah. I think that Superman is a personae as much as Clark is a personae. It is in the comics as well. When you see Clark and Bruce talking to each other on the phone, you see Clark being Kal-El (even pre-crisis) and Bruce still being Batman. Bruce is Batman. That is what Batman 89 got wrong. They made Bruce a psychopathic weirdo when he put on the suit. He is always Batman, he plays at being Bruce Wayne. But yeah, the real guy is not Superman or Clark. Superman is the confident personae who has to be that way because he has Superpowers. Clark is the alter ego. I actually think that in his original intentions, Clark did not want to make friends at the Daily Planet. He would be corgial and all that, and more talkative then he was in SR, but he actually got along with Jimmy and Mr. White, and he fell in love with Lois. I think that isn't what he planned on, it just happened. And once it did, it made him realize his purpose. That was the thing about STM that was so great. When he found Lois dead, he could save all the world, but eventually the ones he loved he would not be there for when they needed him the most. And that is why he defied his father. And don't get me wrong, the one thing I don't like from STM is the "superman is on a mission" thing from his dad. I think he does it as the comics made him do it, and as he said directly from the comics in STM at his dads funeral. "all those things I can do. All those powers. And I could not save him." That is really in the comics where he decided to use his powers and become superman.

And those are my feelings on the topic.

 

[CLARKY]

^I don't think Batman 89 got "wrong". Batman is like Superman, you can work with bruce or batman. Personnally I like him to be Bruce Wayne. Anyway.

Bruce Lee encourage us to be like water, become what ever the situations call for, free and formless until a form is required.

Nice comparison.

 

[EagleVision]

I know it's been discussed before, but it came up in another thread and I thought it was worthy of exploration. In your opinion, *Who* is Superman? Is he Clark Kent and being Superman is something he does on the side, or is he Superman and Clark is just his disguise?

What do you think? Nature or nurture?

Nature Case. Clark is the cover-up, Supes is his true self. Remember, being Kal-el he had these natural gifts from birth. The Kents developed his secret identity from the time they adopted him but in the process they cultivated his sincere, great and loving heart for the earth and the people in it. His father Jor-El was just as passionate about the well-being of his wife and son as well as the Earth and the people in it and he sent him to be a help for a people that desperately could benefit from his gifts and ideals. It was said he scanned much of the universe and came upon Earth and the proper suitors for raising his son in Jonathan and Martha Kent. So Jor-El certainly had a love for Earth and that was revealed to his son as well.

Also, his S on his chest was a family crest of the El family that means Crusade. So although his mother made the suit if my memory serves me right, the S was with him from the beginning. Which makes you think, why wasn't Superman known a the Caped Crusader?? All this truly makes the suit and glasses the secret identity and Superman who he really is. Superman is just a code name for the people of Earth on who he really is and him taking his place, his proper destiny, Kal-El.

Now if u watch Smallville here's a question for u. What will the directors do being that Clark has no glasses and he's been in and out of the Daily Planet like he works there? Are we to expect no one will remember him at all or everyone will have a case of serious amnesia?

Just throwin' it out there.