The European Union

[regwec]

The EU has wasted almost 5% of its last annual budget. This is the 20th successive year that it has failed its audit.

But it wants its budget to increase.

 

[Kelly]

The EU has wasted almost 5% of its last annual budget. This is the 20th successive year that it has failed its audit.

But it wants its budget to increase.

Well, hell at least they have a budget AND they audit it.....

 

[EyesSkyward]

The EU is a necessity if only because it does a great job dissuading us from inflicting another horrifying war on the world. It also helps to give opportunity to the poorer and freedom of movement, while a bug bear of the middle class, is a life changing proposition for many in poverty.

Ideologically, I am a big supporter. Functionally, like all administrations, it needs work.

 

[regwec]

Do you honestly suppose that Britain would have invaded another European country were it not a member of the EU? If so, why didn't we invade any European countries between 1945 and 1972?

The EU makes us all poorer and less free by making Europe uncompetitive in the world and by insulating the centers of power from democratic accountability.

The EU does not "work" and not solution to its countless ills will be found by trying to make it "work". It needs to be unraveled and consigned to history.

 

[EyesSkyward]

Do you honestly suppose that Britain would have invaded another European country were it not a member of the EU? If so, why didn't we invade any European countries between 1945 and 1972?

The EU makes us all poorer and less free by making Europe uncompetitive in the world and by insulating the centers of power from democratic accountability.

The EU does not "work" and not solution to its countless ills will be found by trying to make it "work". It needs to be unraveled and consigned to history.

I honestly believe that in the last hundred years Europe inflicted the most horrifying armed conflicts the world has ever seen.

And I honestly believe that co-operation between governments is a good thing. And I honestly believe that should the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland leave the EU, she will find her voice, economic power, and ability to compete severely damaged.

I also believe that a large opposition to the EU comes from the rich (middle class) fearing the arrival of the poor. I believe in the freedom of movement, the right to work, and the right to build a better life. Is that an easy promise to deliver upon? No. But we should try.

Both practically and idealistically, it makes sense to me.

 

[chamber-music]

I actually think it is the poor who dislike freedom of movement more than the middle class/rich.

It is usually the working class and poor people I hear complain most about immigration, benefits, ect. The people complaining about immigrants stealing their jobs don't tend to be the middle classes because they don't feel as threatened.

Personally I feel as long as the immigrants are not criminals then I don't have a problem with them coming to work and live in the UK. I think there is a argument about how you manage demands on public services because a rapid influx into one area without proper planning can be a strain but beyond that I don't have any issues.

 

[EyesSkyward]

I actually think it is the poor who dislike freedom of movement more than the middle class/rich.

It is usually the working class and poor people I hear complain most about immigration, benefits, ect. The people complaining about immigrants stealing their jobs don't tend to be the middle classes because they don't feel as threatened.

Personally I feel as long as the immigrants are not criminals then I don't have a problem with them coming to work and live in the UK. I think there is a argument about how you manage demands on public services because a rapid influx into one area without proper planning can be a strain but beyond that I don't have any issues.

Yes you raise a good point. Perhaps I should clarify to say the "poorer countries". The working class and lower income workers you refer to are as such are in the richer countries. A working class person in the UK is, I would posit, better off than one in Hungary.

I also think there is a lot of misinformation on the strain to the welcoming country. I am far more cheesed off at buying out banks than I am improving our infrastructure for a growing population.

 

[regwec]

So we should remain in the UK to redistribute wealth from the UK to poorer countries.

 

[EyesSkyward]

So we should remain in the UK to redistribute wealth from the UK to poorer countries.

YES!

Also, to further empower UK businesses to profit from European markets.

 

[DeadPresident]

YES!

Also, to further empower UK businesses to profit from European markets.

Because the UK produces...what exactly? It benefits in no way, shape or form from being parasitically linked to the rest of Europe. It's time countries start taking responsibility for their actions, instead of doing what they want and getting perpetually bailed out by Germany. If those countries can't take care of their citizens it's the responsibility of the citizens to correct it.

Whatever benefits UK businesses would receive from other European countries would be there irrespective of whether or not the EU exists. The UK has a strong financial sector, its success isn't contingent on the EU.

 

[regwec]

YES!

Also, to further empower UK businesses to profit from European markets.

I find the first pronouncement astounding. How many Britons, I wonder, would assent to an arrangement aimed at the impoverishment of their country and their children for the benefit of foreign citizens?

British businesses are little benefited by being locked into the world's only shrinking trade block. European nations would still trade with us if we left anyway (we import from Europe more than we export to it), but Europe is failing economically and it is constantly on the precipice of widespread recession and sovereign debt crisis. It is a bad bet, and membership of the EU prevents the UK concluding trade agreements with less enfeebled foreign powers that have a future. Meanwhile, British businesses are made less internationally competitive by being hamstrung by EU regulation.

 

[EyesSkyward]

Because the UK produces...what exactly? It benefits in no way, shape or form from being parasitically linked to the rest of Europe. It's time countries start taking responsibility for their actions, instead of doing what they want and getting perpetually bailed out by Germany. If those countries can't take care of their citizens it's the responsibility of the citizens to correct it.

Whatever benefits UK businesses would receive from other European countries would be there irrespective of whether or not the EU exists. The UK has a strong financial sector, its success isn't contingent on the EU.

Yikes. We are a diminishing global financial sector. Also, of our top 15 trading partners, I think about 9 are EU members. We talk about competition? I'd rather not tamper with that motivation on their end.

I find the first pronouncement astounding. How many Britons, I wonder, would assent to an arrangement aimed at the impoverishment of their country and their children for the benefit of foreign citizens?

This is common language when it comes to immigration and it;s been talked about like that for over a hundred years. None if it meant impoverishment. But I agree, I am in a minority. Can only speak for myself.

 

[regwec]

On the first point, only our EU membership threatens to undermine our financial sector (see Tobin tax). The City remains one of the most important global command centres, despite the efforts of our rivals in the EU. Meanwhile, Europe is shrinking while the world's other trade blocks are growing. Europe is feeble, sclerotic and corrupt; we will always trade with it as a neighbour, but we have no need to be immersed in that political and economic mess.

On the second point, uncontrolled immigration will always make a rich country poorer, as it creates a downward pressure on wages and a simultaneous pressure on infrastructure, welfare and resources. Naturally, we do need some immigration; leaving the EU would allow us to be selective. You are entitled to your view that Britain should try to give its wealth away to foreign citizens. I think it's immoral.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Europe is shrinking simply because they need to become more than just a consumerist society. At least the other major trade blocs offer something to the world and that is why they show growth. Europe being far too much of a consumer society with little to offer the world has nothing to do with the EU.

 

[chamber-music]

I wouldn't say Europe has little to offer the world. People the world over still by German cars, drink Scottish whiskey, drink French wine, eat Italian made pasta, buy Swedish furniture, store their money in Swiss banks, vacation in Spain and so on.

I think how Europeans manage their industries, trade and compete in the markets are the issue rather than them having a lack of things to offer.

 

[regwec]

Europe is shrinking simply because they need to become more than just a consumerist society. At least the other major trade blocs offer something to the world and that is why they show growth. Europe being far too much of a consumer society with little to offer the world has nothing to do with the EU.

We've been over this so many times. Most of the world's luxury goods are made in Europe, a lot of high tech development occurs there, and London still leads the world for legal, financial and other professional services. The problem is that many industries are rendered uncompetitive by invasive EU regulations, high tax, corruption, poor rule of law, etc. Much of this is from the EU itself; some comes from member states under their own auspices.

 

[Lilbaz]

So Greece goes for elections on Monday. Leading the polls are a far left party that will demand from the EU that most of their debt to be written off and an end to austerity or else they will leave the Euro. The Germans are unlikely to agree. Spain also has a far left party leading the polls making similar demands.

Could this be the beginning of the end for the Euro?

 

[hippie_hunter]

So Greece goes for elections on Monday. Leading the polls are a far left party that will demand from the EU that most of their debt to be written off and an end to austerity or else they will leave the Euro. The Germans are unlikely to agree. Spain also has a far left party leading the polls making similar demands.

Pure bluster IMO. Greece leaving the Euro would be a complete disaster for Greece, the Euro and the ECM are what is giving Greece any bit of security right now, and SYRIZA knows it, they're not dumb enough to bring their country to the brink of utter ruin.

Could this be the beginning of the end for the Euro?

No.

 

[chamber-music]

So Greece goes for elections on Monday. Leading the polls are a far left party that will demand from the EU that most of their debt to be written off and an end to austerity or else they will leave the Euro. The Germans are unlikely to agree. Spain also has a far left party leading the polls making similar demands.

Could this be the beginning of the end for the Euro?

Thee BBC did a whole piece the other day on the rise of these new political parties that may reshape Europe.

I know many Europeans are struggling right now but I would be very weary about some of these new political groups getting in positions of power. I don't trust them and many of them make potentially dangerous outlandish policies.

Fir all the hate the traditional mainstream parties get at least they are devils you know.

I would trust UKIP and these other European countries to watch my car let alone run my country.

 

[regwec]

Greece would be much better off outside the €, which has its rates set in Frankfurt to suit the Franco-German axis. If they had the Drachma, they could devalue it and begin to recover exports.

The "new" parties may well be deserved of criticism, but it is the old Europhile ones that have brought Greece to ruin.

 

[Lilbaz]

Greece would be much better off outside the €, which has its rates set in Frankfurt to suit the Franco-German axis. If they had the Drachma, they could devalue it and begin to recover exports.

The "new" parties may well be deserved of criticism, but it is the old Europhile ones that have brought Greece to ruin.

If they do go to the drachma though all their debt would be in euros. The drachma would quickly lose value making paying off their debt impossible. They would have to default (although they already have to a certain extent a couple of times already, having large parts of their debt written off). They would probably have a lot of short term pain but long term they may be better off.

As for the new parties, yes it is a dangerous time. People when suffering go to extremes. These parties reflect that. Yet their creation was caused by the complacency/incompetence by the main parties. The main parties need to take a long hard look at themselves and come up with new ideas. Inequality is out of control and their needs to be a rebalancing between the richest and the poorest.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Greece would be much better off outside the €, which has its rates set in Frankfurt to suit the Franco-German axis. If they had the Drachma, they could devalue it and begin to recover exports.

Which will result in Greece defaulting. The debt market would still cripple Greece. Even worse than it has now. Also trade with Europe, Greece's biggest trading partner would most likely decline with Greece leaving the Euro, which would hurt Greece tremendously.

EDIT: To further expand as to why Greece would be utterly ruined. First of all, unlike previous years, the only people that would be ruined in a Greek default would be Greece. The bailouts resulted in the debts transferring from financial institutions that would have been ruined to various global financial institutions and EU governments which can handle a Greek default, but as a result new bonds that Greece would issue would be junk resulting in massive interest rates and premiums to investors. So basically, the only people hurt by a Greek default, would be Greece and its citizens. A New Drachma would need to have financial controls to prevent Greeks from moving their euros outside of Greece which would ruin economic activity within Greece. An exit from the Eurozone could lead to Greece getting kicked out of the European Union which would devastate Greece's trade capabilities. All of this would create a New Drachma that would essentially be garbage, like the German mark during the Great Depression.

The "new" parties may well be deserved of criticism, but it is the old Europhile ones that have brought Greece to ruin.

You can't blame Europe for the financial recklessness of New Democracy and PASOK. Not only that but they blatantly lied to get into the Euro. The only real criticism the EU deserves is that they didn't have any teeth to punish Greece when they found out they lied and they didn't have teeth to enforce the rules.

 

[hippie_hunter]

If they do go to the drachma though all their debt would be in euros. The drachma would quickly lose value making paying off their debt impossible. They would have to default (although they already have to a certain extent a couple of times already, having large parts of their debt written off). They would probably have a lot of short term pain but long term they may be better off.

As for the new parties, yes it is a dangerous time. People when suffering go to extremes. These parties reflect that. Yet their creation was caused by the complacency/incompetence by the main parties. The main parties need to take a long hard look at themselves and come up with new ideas. Inequality is out of control and their needs to be a rebalancing between the richest and the poorest.

My fear is that when SYRIZA fails miserably, we could see the rise of even worse parties in Greece like Golden Dawn.

 

[Spitfire]

It is usually the working class and poor people I hear complain most about immigration, benefits, ect. The people complaining about immigrants stealing their jobs don't tend to be the middle classes because they don't feel as threatened.
.

The poor and working class are always the most affected by immigration. The town where I live has witnessed a large influx of workers from Eastern Europe who mostly work in local factories. These companies hire migrants at minimum wage (and often less) which has driven down wages and has had an impact on the incomes of local communities. Add in the social pressures caused (for example friends who are teachers complain about having to teach several children with no English language skills causing a strain on already stretched resources) and resentment has grown and UKIP has a strong presence now.

EU policies like freedom of movement are fine in theory but practical considerations are required. In this case its about numbers and how well equipped the host country is to accommodate any long-term visitors and ensure fairness (e.g. child benefit for kids living outside of the UK is a joke).

Reducing genuine attempts to discuss practical problems to accusations of racism and bigotry doesn't help and encourages support for UKIP.

 

[regwec]

Which will result in Greece defaulting. The debt market would still cripple Greece. Even worse than it has now. Also trade with Europe, Greece's biggest trading partner would most likely decline with Greece leaving the Euro, which would hurt Greece tremendously.

EDIT: To further expand as to why Greece would be utterly ruined. First of all, unlike previous years, the only people that would be ruined in a Greek default would be Greece. The bailouts resulted in the debts transferring from financial institutions that would have been ruined to various global financial institutions and EU governments which can handle a Greek default, but as a result new bonds that Greece would issue would be junk resulting in massive interest rates and premiums to investors. So basically, the only people hurt by a Greek default, would be Greece and its citizens. A New Drachma would need to have financial controls to prevent Greeks from moving their euros outside of Greece which would ruin economic activity within Greece. An exit from the Eurozone could lead to Greece getting kicked out of the European Union which would devastate Greece's trade capabilities. All of this would create a New Drachma that would essentially be garbage, like the German mark during the Great Depression.

You can't blame Europe for the financial recklessness of New Democracy and PASOK. Not only that but they blatantly lied to get into the Euro. The only real criticism the EU deserves is that they didn't have any teeth to punish Greece when they found out they lied and they didn't have teeth to enforce the rules.

No, Greece will cope better with its inevitable default with its own flexible currency.