The European Union

[herakles]

The Greeks lied about their debt to get into the EU in the first place. So they weren't exactly on the up and up before the lines of credit were extended to them.

Also, the government is not the same as an individual. I don't think it's right to baby the Greek government for not knowing how credit works.

That being said, the EU is definitely the main contributor to this whole crisis. But, I don't think its right to absolve Greece of blame.

I think this sums it up well:

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/30/8867939/greece-economic-crisis

Yes the Greek Government did lie BUT EU did not look thoroughly into Greece finances. Just like with the US housing market crash, banks did not look into the finances of prospective home owners they just gave out loans to people who could not afford to repay those loans. Also Greeks were forced to use credit as the Euro made things ridiculously expensive.

Greece's Elite lied got paid and now like with all things it's people are paying for it not the elite or the banks.

So it wasn't just the Greek's fault it was Europe's fault as well

 

[hippie_hunter]

And the referendum has totally blown up in Greece's face. I totally called it. I'd feel good about it if it weren't so pathetic.

 

[regwec]

They are in no worse a position than they were before, except that they have effectively killed the EU on the way out.

Good work, boys.

 

[herakles]

They are in no worse a position than they were before, except that they have effectively killed the EU on the way out.

Good work, boys.

The Euro is really only good for countries that have advanced economies like Germany, France and Netherlands.

The Euro actually made things worse for Greece. Everything got really expensive.

 

[regwec]

The €uro is a fiscal straitjacket that will end up proving bad for everyone except the biggest lender and exporter- Germany.

It looks like debt restructuring is on the table after all, however. Looks like the referendum and Syrzia holding their nerve have paid off. Big time.

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

They are in no worse a position than they were before, except that they have effectively killed the EU on the way out.

Good work, boys.

...

 

[hippie_hunter]

And the Greek government is now going to accept a deal that is harsher than the one that voters rejected. Now do you guys see why I was saying things why the referendum was a total joke:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...o-pass-tougher-three-year-rescue-package.html

 

[regwec]

A perplexing move that no one predicted. The elephant in the room is debt restructuring; if it does happen, then the Greeks have played a blinder. If not, then I can't really see what Tsipras is thinking. Perhaps he is planning to take the €€€ before defaulting, issuing scrip and cozying up to Putin.

 

[hippie_hunter]

A perplexing move that no one predicted.

Really? Because this was totally obvious. When I read about the deal on the news I turned into this:
[YT]PVVDCOWhpE0[/YT]

Frankly after the referendum, there were only two options, economic obliteration due to Grexit or accept an even harsher deal because the Troika tabled the "deal" that was being voted on. They were clear in how they were going to deal with Greece.

The elephant in the room is debt restructuring; if it does happen, then the Greeks have played a blinder. If not, then I can't really see what Tsipras is thinking.

There is a degree of debt restructuring, because of the recent reports stating how awful the conditions the Troika imposed were and pressure from Paris and Washington. But there is not a whole lot of restructuring in comparison to what Greece has to do.

This Greek government is done for now. After stupidly putting the austerity up for a vote and rejecting it by over 60% only to return with an even worse deal. Also voters genuinely believed Tsprias' claims that he could deliver. SYRIZA is too loose of a faction to stay together after this IMO and Greek voters can't take Tsprias seriously again with what he's about to do.

Perhaps he is planning to take the €€€ before defaulting, issuing scrip and cozying up to Putin.

SYRIZA and Tsprias have demonstrated that they are nothing but amateurs.

 

[regwec]

Really? Because this was totally obvious. When I read about the deal on the news I turned into this:
[YT]PVVDCOWhpE0[/YT]

Frankly after the referendum, there were only two options, economic obliteration due to Grexit or accept an even harsher deal because the Troika tabled the "deal" that was being voted on. They were clear in how they were going to deal with Greece.

No, Greece would be far better off taking the short-term pain of leaving the €uro in order to prosper in the long run. That goes for all €urozone nations, bar Germany, who own it and run it according to their needs.

It is disappointing that Tsipras' balls dropped off and another democracy has been smashed under Merkel's jackboot, but the good news is that resentment towards the Troika and faith in the EU project is at an all time low. The myth of solidarity is dead, and more and more Europeans have woken up to the EU's selfishness, vindictiveness, and hatred of democracy.

I am quite confident that Syrzia have brought the inevitable demise of the EU forward, and that is something for which all Europeans will thank them in time.

 

[regwec]

#ThisisaCoup demonstrates that Europeans are beginning to wake up to the reality of the EU project; economic imperialism undertaken for Germany's benefit, for whose enrichment democracy must be crushed and whole peoples impoverished and humiliated.

Be in no doubt that many Germans are themselves enjoying this a lot.

"Greece is put in its place".

That's what EU "solidarity" is all apart. Little has been learned since 1945, it seems.

An excellent commentary on how this whole affair has discredited the EU.

 

[Mechanix]

You seem to enjoy hating on the Germans.

 

[regwec]

I do not "hate" or otherwise preemptively judge any individual based on their nationality.

 

[Mechanix]

I do not "hate" or otherwise preemptively judge any individual based on their nationality.

I wasn't talking about individuals.

 

[regwec]

Are German people not individuals?

 

[Mechanix]

I'm talking about how you come across in your posts. You seem to think that the Germans are part of a dictatorship when it comes to the EU and that many Germans are "enjoying" the new, harsh deal with Greece. The people are clearly frustrated. This is the 3rd bailout.

 

[regwec]

I have said that the €urozone is concocted to work in Germany's favour (it is).

As for the image above; it is what it is. It was created by a German news source, not by me, and there were many approving German comments underneath. It is prima facie evidence that many Germans are enjoying the vengeful punishment and humiliation being inflicted on Greece. I am sure there are other Germans who disagree. It is a revealing illustration of the death of the EU myth of "solidarity", however.

 

[Mechanix]

The Greek politicians are also culpable in the "punishment and humiliation" as you say, of the people.

The Greeks see the Germans as cold and heartless and the Germans see the Greeks as lazy and irresponsible with money. I don't blame either party for how they see the other, it is what it is and their governments have fueled the fire.

 

[regwec]

Yes, and I do not find Syriza to be in any way blameless. They should have defaulted and left the €urozone of their own volition, long ago. I do not, however, think that the treatment of the Greek people by the rest of the €urozone in general and Germany in particular has been reasonable, logical or humane. It seems clear to me that an example is being made of Greece in order to bully other member states into curtailing their democratic processes to conform to centrally imposed policy. The important point, for the purposes of this thread, is that the €uro is a bankruptcy machine for all but its strongest user, and that the fanaticism with which Eurocrats will protect it is detrimental to peace, prosperity and democracy within Europe.

Edit: I think this, from the BBC's economics editor, is fairly balanced. I agree with most of it.

 

[herakles]

The Greek politicians are also culpable in the "punishment and humiliation" as you say, of the people.

The Greeks see the Germans as cold and heartless and the Germans see the Greeks as lazy and irresponsible with money. I don't blame either party for how they see the other, it is what it is and their governments have fueled the fire.

Greeks ARE NOT lazy! My cousin lives in Athens and she says that before the crisis people were working 2 jobs because the Euro made everything so damn expensive.

Yes the Greek government lied through their teeth to get into the Eurozone but the Germans like all shady banks/mortgage loan givers knew or had an idea that Greece was lying but still allowed them in.

The EU is just as quilty as the Greek government!

 

[Mechanix]

Greeks ARE NOT lazy! My cousin lives in Athens and she says that before the crisis people were working 2 jobs because the Euro made everything so damn expensive.

Yes the Greek government lied through their teeth to get into the Eurozone but the Germans like all shady banks/mortgage loan givers knew or had an idea that Greece was lying but still allowed them in.

The EU is just as quilty as the Greek government!

I didn't say they were. I quoted it from an article that I read. Calm down.

Also, the "my friend/relative says" evidence is considered anecdotal. It's not representative of an entire nation.

 

[herakles]

I didn't say they were. I quoted it from an article that I read. Calm down.

Also, the "my friend/relative says" evidence is considered anecdotal. It's not representative of an entire nation.

Given that 40% of the Greece's population lives in Athens and that is where most of the suffering is happening my cousin's comment is pretty valid. She personally knows dozens of people who did work two jobs.

Now my family in the village has not suffered as much if not at all from the crisis. Villagers tend to be farmers and simple people. Some who were dumb enough to buy into the German farce that is credit and mortgage loans have suffered.

Greeks are suffering. I truly believe this is a way to put shackles on the Greek people while securing summer holiday retreats for the Northern Europeans.

I still hope Greece leaves the Eurozone. My people's economic and cultural freedom/survival depends on them leaving.

 

[Mechanix]

Given that 40% of the Greece's population lives in Athens and that is where most of the suffering is happening my cousin's comment is pretty valid. She personally knows dozens of people who did work two jobs.

Now my family in the village has not suffered as much if not at all from the crisis. Villagers tend to be farmers and simple people. Some who were dumb enough to buy into the German farce that is credit and mortgage loans have suffered.

Greeks are suffering. I truly believe this is a way to put shackles on the Greek people while securing summer holiday retreats for the Northern Europeans.

I still hope Greece leaves the Eurozone. My people's economic and cultural freedom/survival depends on them leaving.

That still doesn't matter. Personally knowing dozens of people does not mean she has an accurate picture of the entire country.

Your comment about the summer vacations is spurious at best.

Your people are suffering because of your politicians. Greece wasn't in the best shape even before they entered into the Euro.

 

[regwec]

And yet, knowing that, the expansionist EU sucked it into the €urozone bankruptcy trap.

 

[Mechanix]

And yet, knowing that, the expansionist EU sucked it into the €urozone bankruptcy trap.

Goldman Sachs did a good job of hiding the Greek debt.