The European Union

[regwec]

Yes, but the European Commission, the finance ministers of most €urozone member states, and by extension the Council and Parliament were well aware of what was going on and have gone on record saying so.

Edit: A view from outside Europe (Bloomberg).

 

[herakles]

That still doesn't matter. Personally knowing dozens of people does not mean she has an accurate picture of the entire country.

Still doesn't matter to you! People had to work two job just make ends meet in a post Euro adopting Athens. Please show me the "accurate picture"? Did or do you live in Greece? If not then your counter is not as accurate as someone who lives in the capital city which houses over 40% of the total population of a nation.

Your comment about the summer vacations is spurious at best.

Even if it is "spurious" we all know the Germans and the Dutch want to force Greece to sell sovereign land.

Your people are suffering because of your politicians. Greece wasn't in the best shape even before they entered into the Euro.

Question for you. Is it not ethical to give open lines of credit to someone that you know can not possibly repay that loan? That is what the Germans and the Dutch have done.

The EU allowed a nation entrance into Euro zone that it had suspicions that it was not ready to enter the Eurozone.

I wish the Greeks have never forgiven the debt owed to them buy Germans in the 1950s.

 

[Mechanix]

Still doesn't matter to you! People had to work two job just make ends meet in a post Euro adopting Athens. Please show me the "accurate picture"? Did or do you live in Greece? If not then your counter is not as accurate as someone who lives in the capital city which houses over 40% of the total population of a nation.


Even if it is "spurious" we all know the Germans and the Dutch want to force Greece to sell sovereign land.




Question for you. Is it not ethical to give open lines of credit to someone that you know can not possibly repay that loan? That is what the Germans and the Dutch have done.

The EU allowed a nation entrance into Euro zone that it had suspicions that it was not ready to enter the Eurozone.

I wish the Greeks have never forgiven the debt owed to them buy Germans in the 1950s.

You really need to learn what anecdotal evidence means.

Selling land to pay off debts isn't unheard of.

I think it's ridiculous to assume that the Greek government was naïve enough to accept loans without understanding what credit is. They took the loans and used them irresponsibly. That is the fault of the government.

You seem to forget that the Germans signed a treaty with Greece to pay them back in 1960. All of these threats now to seize German assets is a pathetic attempt by the Greek government to deflect from the current issue, which is their mounting debt. If you want to blame anyone for the Germans not repaying their debts, it should be the US.

 

[regwec]

So, when the Greeks take on debt that they cannot repay, it is their fault.

When Germans take on debt they cannot repay, it is America's fault.

Right.

 

[Mechanix]

So, when the Greeks take on debt that they cannot repay, it is their fault.

When Germans take on debt they cannot repay, it is America's fault.

Right.

The Americans forced European countries to sign waivers that stated they were not to go after Germany for war reparations if they wanted to receive help from the US (Marshall Plan). The Americans wanted their money from Germany first. They effectively wiped out 85% of the German debt.

It's not like the Germans would say no to that. No one would.

So, yeah.

 

[regwec]

Ah, so Germany is now able to treat its debtors so cruelly because its creditors treated it so leniently after WWII.

I see.

 

[Mechanix]

Ah, so Germany is now able to treat its debtors so cruelly because its creditors treated it so leniently after WWII.

I see.

What? I never said that. Seriously, you're infuriating.

I was responding to the claims about German debt to Greece. It wasn't the Germans who wiped it out, it was the Americans. There were clearly other political factors at play. Not only is this Greek crisis an entirely different issue, but shifting the discussion from how to solve the Greek debt to "well the Germans owe us money from decades ago" doesn't move anything forward.

 

[regwec]

It is certainly something that is convenient to Germany to forget.

 

[herakles]

I think it's ridiculous to assume that the Greek government was naïve enough to accept loans without understanding what credit is. They took the loans and used them irresponsibly. That is the fault of the government.

So you think it is ethical to give money to people who are 1. lying 2. you know or suspect they are lying. 3 you that there is a high probable chance that they will not be able to repay the loan.

Also every grain of dirt of Greek land is sacred to a Greek. We fought, died, were enslaved and gained our freedom on our land!

 

[Mechanix]

It is certainly something that is convenient to Germany to forget.

It's not that simple.

 

[herakles]

I for one hope that Greece leaves the Eurozone. Greece can not sustain high costs of having the Euro as it's currency.

 

[Mechanix]

So you think it is ethical to give money to people who are 1. lying 2. you know or suspect they are lying. 3 you that there is a high probable chance that they will not be able to repay the loan.

Also every grain of dirt of Greek land is sacred to a Greek. We fought, died, were enslaved and gained our freedom on our land!

If it pays off the debt, sell it or lease it.

And the Greek government had Goldman Sachs to help it fudge the numbers.

Really, the people who lied to get the money are no less at fault than those who gave it to them. And it's not like they lied and then used the money well. They spent it like drunken sailors in a brothel and then covered their tracks.

And Greece saw growth during its first years in the Eurozone. It allowed them to borrow more because of the good credit of the Euro.

 

[herakles]

If it pays off the debt, sell it or lease it.

And the Greek government had Goldman Sachs to help it fudge the numbers.

Really, the people who lied to get the money are no less at fault than those who gave it to them. And it's not like they lied and then used the money well. They spent it like drunken sailors in a brothel and then covered their tracks.

And Greece saw growth during its first years in the Eurozone. It allowed them to borrow more because of the good credit of the Euro.

They are also unable to repay the loans because they can not print money. They are forced to use the money of the debtors so the debtors have in a sense turned Greece into indentured servants. Greece now has to repay loans but can not replay the loan because the debtor has control of the currency used to replay the loans.

How about force Greece out of the Eurozone and allow Greece a means to actually repay the loan.

 

[regwec]

Everyone would be better off outside the €urozone, and outside the EU.

If there is one thing for which we can thank the dumbo Tsipras and the tinpot dictator Merkel, it is that they have probably made the disintegration of the EU inevitable.

 

[herakles]

Everyone would be better off outside the €urozone, and outside the EU.

If there is one thing for which we can thank the dumbo Tsipras and the tinpot dictator Merkel, it is that they have probably made the disintegration of the EU inevitable.

I agree with you on that!!!

 

[Mechanix]

Everyone would be better off outside the €urozone, and outside the EU.

If there is one thing for which we can thank the dumbo Tsipras and the tinpot dictator Merkel, it is that they have probably made the disintegration of the EU inevitable.

Tinpot dictator?

Whatever, man.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I for one would like to thank Feenix for filling in for me on this one.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I for one hope that Greece leaves the Eurozone. Greece can not sustain high costs of having the Euro as it's currency.

Greece cannot sustain a return of the drachma. A new drachma would be utterly worthless and it doesn't have the export economy necessary to allow them to recover with a lower currency. Not only that but getting booted out of the euro will significantly reduce trade (the euro has increased trade within the EU, and Greece's biggest trading partners are EU member-states), cause even higher prices (because goods are not going into Greece), and create a banking crisis.

 

[Red Mask]

Even so, I don't think they should have bailed out Greece. It would have been a rude awakening to be cut off but they deserved it. The fact that they've moving forty plus ships to Nigeria shows they aren't as competitive as they should be.

 

[regwec]

I for one would like to thank Feenix for filling in for me on this one.

Really? I didn't realise German nationalism was your schtick.

Greece cannot sustain a return of the drachma. A new drachma would be utterly worthless and it doesn't have the export economy necessary to allow them to recover with a lower currency. Not only that but getting booted out of the euro will significantly reduce trade (the euro has increased trade within the EU, and Greece's biggest trading partners are EU member-states), cause even higher prices (because goods are not going into Greece), and create a banking crisis.

No, devaluation will improve exports. You are right to say that it will mean Greece will buy imports at much greater relative cost, but a re balancing of its economy in the long term is clearly needed. You are also right to say that a banking crisis would be caused, but they are currently in a banking crisis. Greek banks have no liquidity and they are shut- this is part of the ECB and Germany's punishment for Greeks rejecting the bailout terms.

Nobody predicts anything other than a calamity in the short to medium term if Greece rejects the €uro, but it would give Greece the opportunity to rebuild, rebalance and regenerate over the long term. It would also restore its political and economic freedom, and spare future generations from having to kowtow to the troika and whomever Merkel's successors in Germany may be.

It should also be remembered that few European states are as ruthless and vengeful towards the Greeks as Germany. Others are likely to do what they can to prevent Greece becoming a failed state. That is certainly in the interests of NATO, and the West more broadly.

 

[Mechanix]

Really? I didn't realise German nationalism was your schtick.

Stop.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Really? I didn't realise German nationalism was your schtick.

It's not nationalism for any one nation, it's looking at reality and the facts that Greece would be worse off outside of the Eurozone and overall the European Union has been beneficial to all of Europe.

And while Germany is without a doubt the EU's most powerful member, it isn't the insane cackling dictator that you're portraying it to be. If Germany had its way, Greece would be out now after the way SYRIZA had conducted itself over the negotiations. Greece still being in the euro, is France's doing.

No, devaluation will improve exports.

I know that this is hyperbole, but zero times zero is still zero. A devalued currency works when there is a vibrant export economy which Greece doesn't have. It's an economy that is too reliant on tourism and shipping.

To quote a Greek CEO who acknowledges that Greece would be screwed out of the Eurozone: "Greece is a country that doesn’t produce anything."

You are right to say that it will mean Greece will buy imports at much greater relative cost,

Which will not only hurt Greek consumers, but also Greek businesses. The vast majority of raw materials that Greek businesses need come from outside of Greece.

but a re balancing of its economy in the long term is clearly needed.

The things that Greece needs to do in order to re-balance its economy: lowering costs (primarily labor costs), weeding out corruption, improving exports, etc. can all be done within the Eurozone.

You are also right to say that a banking crisis would be caused, but they are currently in a banking crisis. Greek banks have no liquidity and they are shut- this is part of the ECB and Germany's punishment for Greeks rejecting the bailout terms.

This banking crisis is not the ECB and Germanys' fault. The fault here lies entirely with Tsprias and SYRIZA for playing a game of brinkmanship. They could have completely avoided it.

And seriously, the demands that Greece were asking in order to keep their banks open were ridiculous. They amounted to "Give us money, in return for nothing."

Nobody predicts anything other than a calamity in the short to medium term if Greece rejects the €uro, but it would give Greece the opportunity to rebuild, rebalance and regenerate over the long term. It would also restore its political and economic freedom, and spare future generations from having to kowtow to the troika and whomever Merkel's successors in Germany may be.

Germany is not some awful dictatorship that you're making it out to be. Merkel is in no position to just give into the Greeks and do anything to preserve its status in the Eurozone. It would most likely lead to a collapse of her government with massive repercussions for generations within her country like the revival of the extreme right that she has successfully kept at bay.

It should also be remembered that few European states are as ruthless and vengeful towards the Greeks as Germany. Others are likely to do what they can to prevent Greece becoming a failed state. That is certainly in the interests of NATO, and the West more broadly.

The Eastern European nations of the Eurozone and Finland have been far more harsh than Germany. During the post-Cold War era and even during the worst of the Eurozone crisis they have done the necessary reforms and austerity measures that Greece needs to do without acting like petulant children. To act as if this is all Germany's doing is completely inaccurate when Greece's strongest critics are not Germany. According to Varoufakis, despite their public comments, Italy and Spain have been absolute nightmares towards Greece. Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Slovakia, Ireland, and Portugal have been much harsher on Greece in demands and criticisms than Germany has been.

The reality is that Greece's government has created so much mistrust, that it has very few friends left within the Eurozone. The nations that should have been the most sympathetic towards Greece, are actually the ones who have been the harshest. The majority of Eurozone nations are just done with Greece and are willing to cast it aside because it has been a poor negotiating partner and has been too slow in implementing the necessary reforms. The only real friends Greece has left within the Eurozone are France and Luxembourg.

 

[regwec]

The ECB is required to keep Greece's banks capitalised. This is not the same as bailing out the Greek treasury. This was the key plank of the European Stability Facility, as hatched by Draghi. The ECB has failed to do this, however, because the rest of the troika wanted to inflict exemplary punishment on the Greek people for failing to vote as they were instructed in their referendum.

I agree with much of the rest of what you say, HH, except that (probably with the virtue of distance) you are extremely naive about the motives of the EU institutions and some of the €urozone governments. We are both fully aware that life for Greece post-default will be a nightmare. The point is, however, that in the €urozone it is already a nightmare and it is just going to get worse and worse and worse not least because, as you have pointed out, Germany and its axis have no solidarity with or sympathy for the Greeks whatsoever. Greece is far better off facing the future alone without being bullied or raped of its assets by these fair-weather friends. European solidarity is dead. The EU project is dead. In the end, it only took an argument over one member state's debt for the mask to slip and for all that empty rhetoric to blow away on an Aegean breeze.

 

[Mechanix]

Dramatic much? Yeesh.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The ECB is required to keep Greece's banks capitalised. This is not the same as bailing out the Greek treasury. This was the key plank of the European Stability Facility, as hatched by Draghi. The ECB has failed to do this, however,

Because in the end, it was Greece's government that called off negotiations, acted in bad faith, and completely demonized its creditors. But yes, just keep giving them money in return for nothing. That will sure send a great message that all you have to do is elect an intransigent, uncooperative, petulant, extremist government and all will be okay to solve your countries woes because the EU will capitulate and foot the bill.

because the rest of the troika wanted to inflict exemplary punishment on the Greek people for failing to vote as they were instructed in their referendum.

This is where I literally have no sympathy for the Greek people. Despite Tsprias' assurances that by voting no, Greece would have a stronger hand in the negotiations, the Troika, EU, and ECB all said that Tsprias' claims were baseless and would actually weaken Greece's position. They flat out, freaking, said it. Very clearly. What Greece did was essentially the equivalent if I told you not to touch the stove while it's on because you will get severely burned and then you proceed to touch it anyways despite how very clear and adamant I was over how hot it was and how burns really, really hurt.

So no, it's not punishment, it's they got what they asked for.

I agree with much of the rest of what you say, HH, except that (probably with the virtue of distance) you are extremely naive about the motives of the EU institutions and some of the €urozone governments.

There are no devious motives of the EU and Eurozone. The EU excels at creating an economic superbloc that allows Europe to be on par with the United States and China on the global scale. The EU has allowed Eastern Europe to thrive as fully functioning liberal economies and be a part of the global economy after the fall of the Communist order. The EU has been the key to peace on a continent that has been rife with war for centuries. It has promoted and increased trade. It has created a uniform set of regulations to make it easier to conduct business on a continental wide scale. These are the motives. And these are good things.

We are both fully aware that life for Greece post-default will be a nightmare. The point is, however, that in the €urozone it is already a nightmare and it is just going to get worse and worse and worse not least because

The Eurozone was a nightmare because at first, the Eurozone did not have the enforcement and unifying mechanisms necessary to ensure that others are following the rules and to make things smoother. Keep in mind that the other PIIGS nations and Eastern Europe are not having the same problems that Greece is having.

But it has changed now. Under Merkel's leadership, backed by the majority of Eurozone members, it's going to be, that member-states have to follow the rules or there will be Hell to pay for. One insolent member is not going to drag down all of the others because it doesn't want to play ball.

as you have pointed out, Germany and its axis have no solidarity with or sympathy for the Greeks whatsoever.

Germany and its axis. I think you mean Germany and almost everyone in the European Union. Even if Germany weren't putting a lot of pressure on Greece, many of these countries would still be furious at Greece. Debt is based on trust. It always has been. This trust relationship was one of the key basis of Hamilton's points when the US started issuing debt. Trust is a key component between financial institutions and consumers. Greece eroded that trust and destroyed any sympathy they should have had.

Greece is far better off facing the future alone without being bullied or raped of its assets by these fair-weather friends. European solidarity is dead. The EU project is dead. In the end, it only took an argument over one member state's debt for the mask to slip and for all that empty rhetoric to blow away on an Aegean breeze.

The EU is not dead, if anything, this crisis will make it even more stronger and cohesive. The Eurozone needed reforms and this crisis will ensure that those reforms will happen now.