The Format War

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This is the best I could find about explaining PCM, it's from IGN.



Uncompressed PCM 5.1: Found on a large number of Blu-Ray discs but not supported on HD-DVD, uncompressed PCM 5.1 is simply that: an uncompressed version of the film’s standard 5.1 to 7.1 soundtrack. While that doesn’t sound too exciting, believe me when I say PCM 5.1 is a joy to hear. I’ll post my own experiences in a second, but here’s what many reviewers of BD and HD-DVD discs have to say about PCM audio:

”Buena Vista continues to aggressively support uncompressed PCM soundtracks on its Blu-ray releases, and I say cheers to that. With so much talk about new audio formats such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD (which are indeed great, make no mistake), it is easy to forgot that plain ol' PCM can produce some the best sound around.”

”If you haven't heard uncompressed PCM you really don't know what you're missing. I haven't heard anything from DD, DD+, True HD or even DTSHD quite on the same level. Of course the later can currently only be based on hearing the core DTS on DTS MA tracks from Fox. And I'm not convinced that the TrueHD tracks that I've heard were the best the codec can do. Regardless, PCM has delivered the most transparent audio presentations I've ever heard even at 16bit. It's like listening directly to the master tapes. Or so I imagine.”

” Buena Vista rolls out the red carpet with an uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround track at 48kHz/16-bit. What impressed me most were the quietest moments...'Flightplan' definitely delivers some of the best atmosphere I've heard yet on a Blu-ray release.”

” I have little doubt that the uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround track on this disc easily stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the best soundtracks I've heard on either next-gen format.”

”PCM again lives up to the hype, preserving a broad, open transparency with newfound detail and clarity that DVD just can't touch.“


While DD5.1 tracks for DVDs have been compressed to fit, PCM audio allows them to breathe. It’s like listening to an MP3 you downloaded off Limewire & then listening to the same track on the original CD. Another comparison would be listening to a movie with earmuffs on, and PCM audio taking those muffs off, allowing you to hear subtle details like the rain pitter-pattering on the windshield, the hum of an elevator as it moves upwards...if you think I’m exaggerating, believe me, I’m not. It’s incredible how much uncompressed PCM turns your room into a living, breathing environment. It’s almost like going from 5.1 to 20.1.

http://blogs.ign.com/chubigans/2006/12/29/41597/
 
imdaly said:
That's it?

You do realize that any studio could switch at any time, right?

So Blu-ray has Fox, which has had a pretty poor track-record for the format so far, with their titles being $39 each, with no extras, and sub-standard quality. Not to mention they've indefinitely-postponed now 13 of their titles that were supposed to be out by now, with no hint of why.

Blu-ray has Disney, which, with the exception of "Pirates of the Caribbean" and "Cars" (neither of which will even be out until May and June), has released crap titles such as "Eight Below".

Warner Brothers is supporting both, yet has a good handful of titles only released on HD DVD so far, such as "Batman Begins" and "V For Vendetta", because Blu-ray is having trouble getting it's BD-J feature to work.


Aside from all the extra studios supporting Blu-ray, Blu-ray has now 183 titles released, compared to HD DVDs 163...a 20-title difference.



I'm also curious as to why we would need any more space than what's already on these discs. With the great compression codecs available today, such as VC-1 which HD DVD uses almost entirely, there's plenty of room to fit any movie in HD on one disc, along with extras. And if Blu-ray's storage space is so superior to HD DVDs, then I'll ask why "Mission Impossible 3" and "World Trade Center" are 2-Disc sets for both HD DVD and Blu-ray. If you think you're going to get full seasons of a TV show on one disc, don't hold your breath. Studios know the virtual added value to multi-disc sets. Makes the consumer feel like they're getting more bang for their buck.
Click to expand...


Space is a big factor for me because I am wanting to put the dvds I already own onto a disc that is able to hold a bunch. Blu-Ray is coming out with 100GB blank discs am I right??? It would be awesome to convert movies I already own and put them onto one disc.
 
Here's a look at the titles (what's confirmed so far anyway) coming out for both formats through the end of May:

Already Released
Blu-ray - 183
HD DVD - 163


March 20
Big Fish (Sony)
Chicken Little (Buena Vista)
Eragon (Fox)
Finding Neverland (Buena Vista)
Rocky Balboa (Sony)

March 27
Happy Feet (Warner)
Happy Feet (Warner)
Incubus: Alive at Red Rocks (Sony Music)
March of the Penguins (Warner)
March of the Penguins (Warner)
National Geographic: Relentless Enemies (Warner)
National Geographic: Relentless Enemies (Warner)
The Pursuit of Happyness (Sony)
Children of Men (Universal)
Digital Video Essentials (DVD International)

April 3
G.I. Jane (Buena Vista)
Identity (Sony)
King Arthur Director's Cut (Buena Vista)
Me, Myself & Irene (Fox)
Volver (Sony)
Warriors of Heaven and Earth (Sony)
The Good Shepherd (Universal)

April 10
Dog Day Afternoon (Warner)
Dog Day Afternoon (Warner)
Payback: Straight Up - The Director's Cut (Paramount)
Payback: Straight Up - The Director's Cut (Paramount)
A Scanner Darkly (Warner)
A Scanner Darkly (Warner)

April 17
The Dirty Dozen (Warner) - already on HD DVD
Enter the Dragon (Warner) - already on HD DVD
Feast (Weinstein)
The Game (Universal)
The Jerk (Universal)
School for Scoundrels (Genius)
Smokin' Aces (Universal)

April 24
Deja Vu (Buena Vista)
Failure to Launch (Paramount)
Failure to Launch (Paramount)
Night at the Museum (Fox)
Planet Earth: The Complete Collection (BBC)
Planet Earth: The Complete Collection (BBC)
The Queen (Buena Vista)
Secret Window (Sony)
Ultimate Avengers Collection (Lionsgate)
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Universal)
The Nutty Professor (1996) (Universal)

May 1
Dreamgirls (DreamWorks)
Dreamgirls (DreamWorks)
Happily N'Ever After (Lionsgate Entetainment)
Alpha Dog (Universal)
The Hitcher (2007) (Universal)

May 8
Dirty Dancing (Lionsgate)
Donnie Brasco (Sony)
Revenge (Sony)
Black Christmas (2006) (Weinstein)
Harsh Times (Weinstein)

May 15
The Fountain (Warner)
The Fountain (Warner)

May 22
Closer (Sony)
Flags of Our Fathers (DreamWorks)
Flags of Our Fathers (DreamWorks)
M:I-2 (Paramount)
M:I-2 (Paramount)
Mission: Impossible (Paramount)
Mission: Impossible (Paramount)
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (Buena Vista)
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (Buena Vista)
The 40-Year-Old Virgin (Universal)
The Hurricane (2000) (Universal)
The Skeleton Key (Universal)
Smokey and the Bandit (Universal)

May 29
Basic Instinct (Lionsgate)
Weeds: Season One (Lionsgate)
The Big Lebowski (Universal)
Dragonheart (Universal)
The Frighteners: Director's Cut (Universal)
Lost in Translation (Universal)
Midnight Run (Universal)
The River (Universal)

Total Announced Titles Coming Between Now and the End of May:
Blu-ray - 42
HD DVD - 37

Total Number of Titles Available For Each Format By the End of May:
Blu-ray - 225
HD DVD - 200


So as of now, all those extra studios supporting Blu-ray are going to amount to 25 more titles available for Blu-ray over HD DVD at the end of May(that is, if Fox doesn't cancel their other 3 announced titles before then).
 
RedIsNotBlue said:
Space is a big factor for me because I am wanting to put the dvds I already own onto a disc that is able to hold a bunch. Blu-Ray is coming out with 100GB blank discs am I right??? It would be awesome to convert movies I already own and put them onto one disc.
Click to expand...

Blu-ray can in theory hold 200GB of space on a single 8-layered disc, and a HD DVD can in theory hold 120GB on an 8-layered disc. But these will not be discs used for media players, but rather for computer storage, and that is IF it ever actually gets created. They had a heck of a time simply getting a Dual-layered Blu-ray disc made at a successful rate. I shudder to think about how much a 200GB disc would cost anyway...




Besides, trust me when I tell you this:

After you get used to watching movies in High-Definition you will not want to watch your Standard-Definition DVDs any more.
 
Well I will see. I am still in the very beginning stage of learning about all of this technology. Hell I still don't even have an HDTV yet. Right now I am just trying to learn up on it but right now in terms of the future its looking blu.
 
How much do they pay you Imdaly.
laugh.gif
 
Yeah I mean I don't care if he is defending HD dvds but it seems like he is trying the turn the positives of blu-ray in negatives...haha.
 
Zenien said:
How much do they pay you Imdaly.
laugh.gif
Click to expand...

Haha, I wish. :)



But honestly, who here actually owns a player of either format?

<raises hand>

I own, as of today, 20 HD DVDs with the 3 more pre-ordered so far off of Amazon.

I've been keeping up on all things Blu-ray and HD DVD for over a year now, and have been seeing how things are going.

Yes, at this moment, and for the past 2 months, Blu-ray is ahead. But you've got to take a look at the bigger picture and really see how things are going.

HD DVD has, for the most part, had a fairly mundane number of releases in these past 2 months. Even with Blu-ray unleashing a bunch of titles during HD DVD's little break, with all the extra players out there (if you count the PS3), and with all the extra studio "help", Blu-ray has only managed to outsell HD DVD by a 2:1 ratio.

Don't you think that the fact that HD DVD can take such a break as it has while Blu-ray unleashes its titles faster than it ever has, and only manage to be outsold by such a small margin (considering all factors), that that says something about the staying power of HD DVD?

What happens if and when PS3 starts coming out with actual games, and the PS3 owners start having something else to put their money towards?


And what happens when the HD DVD players hit that magical $200 range first? ;)


I'm not trying to spin every Blu-ray advantage into a disadvantage, I'm simply trying to offer some insight and perspective. I'm sure everyone here is wise enough to know to not take things simply at face value.

HD DVD was supposed to be dead before it even launched at CES 2006...it wasn't.
Then it was supposed to be dead once Blu-ray launched...it wasn't.
Then it was supposed to be dead once PS3 launched...it wasn't.
Then it was supposed to be dead after CES 2007...it wasn't.

HD DVD is here to stay.
 
imdaly said:
What happens if and when PS3 starts coming out with actual games, and the PS3 owners start having something else to put their money towards?
Click to expand...

i just bought Motorstorm AND Casino Royal on Blu-ray within 3 days of each other :huh:

what happeneds when more people start buying PS3s as the exclusives start rolling in and then start buying up Blu-ray even more? :oldrazz:

or how about the people, who are looking to get a next gen console, that start realizing that they could pay $400 for a premium 360, and an extra $100 for an HD-DVD player, and then keeping in mind monthly or yearly payments on xbox Live when on PS3 online is free...you're already at a 20gb PS3...throw in the wireless internet and 40gb extra if you care for that sort of thing...well, PS3 is looking mighty tempting.

then think of the much larger plethora of amazing exclusives to already worthwhile games to come (to which there are currently many more than X Box) and you got yourself a killer console that is oh so sexy looking to boot.

blu-ray's not goin anywhere...
 
TheBat812 said:
According to IGN, Blu-Ray outsold HD-DVD for the second month in a row. In February, outsold it 2:1. That's a huge ratio.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/772/772518p1.html
Click to expand...

New Releases in Feb. 2007:

Blu-ray:Total - 27


HD DVD:Total - 7

So Blu-ray releases 4x's as many titles, yet only sells 2x's as many discs...


New Releases in Jan. 2007:

Blu-rayTotal - 28


HD DVDTotal - 16

And in January, it was 28 Blu-rays to 16 HD DVDs, just under twice as many titles released, and it outsold HD DVD by 2:1.


Like I said, let's see how well Blu-ray can hold up when HD DVD actually starts releasing movies again at a good rate, starting March 27th.

Also, keep in mind that, while this is Blu-ray's 2nd month in a row of outselling HD DVD, HD DVD outsold Blu-ray every single month before that.
 
Up until recently it was always Blu Ray that was the one proclaimed destined for failure. I'll post more on that tomorrow since I'm really tired right now. :o

It has been proven that it's not just the number of releases that have Blu Ray outselling HD-DVD, multi platform titles are selling better on Blu Ray, and we're not just talking about Departed.

The May- April timespan basically boils down to:

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Universal)
The Good Shepherd (Universal)
Children of Men (Universal)

Against

Rocky Balboa (Sony)
Ultimate Avengers Collection (Lionsgate)
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (Buena Vista)
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (Buena Vista)
Big Fish

I'd say that Blu-Ray has the raw sales advantage in these two months.
 
imdaly said:
New Releases in Feb. 2007:

Blu-ray:Total - 27


HD DVD:Total - 7

So Blu-ray releases 4x's as many titles, yet only sells 2x's as many discs...


New Releases in Jan. 2007:

Blu-rayTotal - 28


HD DVDTotal - 16

And in January, it was 28 Blu-rays to 16 HD DVDs, just under twice as many titles released, and it outsold HD DVD by 2:1.


Like I said, let's see how well Blu-ray can hold up when HD DVD actually starts releasing movies again at a good rate, starting March 27th.

Also, keep in mind that, while this is Blu-ray's 2nd month in a row of outselling HD DVD, HD DVD outsold Blu-ray every single month before that.
Click to expand...

And the only real power players released on any HD disc for Feburary were multi platform releases, the prior month was far more lopsided. In feb both formats received the titles that actually made big numbers and Blu Ray still held its lead. I mean seriously look at the release list not the numbers at the bottom.

March belongs to one movie:

Gcasino.jpg
 
I'll give you Rocky, and Pirates 1/2 easily.

But if you count Ult. Avengers and Big Fish, I'm counting Smokin' Aces, Alpha Dog, The Fountain, 40-yr-old Virgin, and Smokey & the Bandit, too.

Heck, I'd count Dirty Dancing, and Deja Vu for Blu-ray, too. :)

Like I said, it's going to be a very interesting period. Who knows which way it'll go. But you can bet yourself it won't be anywhere close to a 2:1 lead for Blu-ray like the past two months has been with HD DVD pretty much taking a breather.
 
Zenien said:
March belongs to one movie:

Gcasino.jpg
Click to expand...

I'll give you that.

If only an entire format could rely one one movie...


Personally, I'm far more excited for "Children of Men" than I am "Casino Royale", but that could simply be because I've never seen any Bond films before...
 
I am to. I didn't like Casino Royal and I've heard great things about Children of Men.

Ok fine Big Fish and Ultimate Avengers was silly of me :csad:

The war is going to be decided by these 3 things.

1. How the next few months pan out, which leads into number 2.

2. The state of the war by next Christmas which will help determine the impact of number 3.

3. The effect of the lowered cost of the Standalone players by next Christmas.

I think we'll know for (relatively) sure one way or another which format is coming out on top by next December.
 
Zenien said:
I am to. I didn't like Casino Royal and I've heard great things about Children of Men.

Ok fine Big Fish and Ultimate Avengers was silly of me :csad:

The war is going to be decided by these 3 things.

1. How the next few months pan out, which leads into number 2.

2. The state of the war by next Christmas which will help determine the impact of number 3.

3. The effect of the lowered cost of the Standalone players by next Christmas.

I think we'll know for (relatively) sure one way or another which format is coming out on top by next December.
Click to expand...

:) I agree with that entire post.

Sounds like a great jumping-off point for the night.

"TMNT: The Arcade Game" JUST came up on XBLA, so I'm off to play that for a bit before I finally get some sleep! :D

Nighty, Zenien.
 
Zenien said:
I am to. I didn't like Casino Royal and I've heard great things about Children of Men.
Click to expand...
I I had to pick one I'd plump for Children of Men too. Casino Royale underwhelmed me, whereas Children of Men surprised me. And yay for the English orientated films. :p
 
RedIsNotBlue said:
I have been looking through a bunch of LCD tv's and I came across this one it looks decent. http://www.plasmabay.com/plasma/product.asp?ref=BizRate&sku=42HL196 Anyone else have one of these or suggest one for me?
Click to expand...
This is the tv I have!!! Its one of the highest rated LCD's on the market. Cnet called "best LCD of its class" I love it! Its great for gaming and movies! You can even put it on a wall! Lastly, these baby's last 10-15 years!!!
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sams...45931/catOid/-12867/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
 
imdale said:
Blu-ray can in theory hold 200GB of space on a single 8-layered disc, and a HD DVD can in theory hold 120GB on an 8-layered disc. But these will not be discs used for media players, but rather for computer storage, and that is IF it ever actually gets created. They had a heck of a time simply getting a Dual-layered Blu-ray disc made at a successful rate. I shudder to think about how much a 200GB disc would cost anyway...
Click to expand...

Seeing as HD-DVD and Blu Ray have near identical production costs per disc, the cost of a 200 gig Blu Ray would be the same as a 120 Gig HD-DVD. :o

If only an entire format could rely one one movie...
Click to expand...

As we've seen, only having 1 movie isn't a problem either format, but Blu Ray seems to have the number and starpower advantage.

Personally, I'm far more excited for "Children of Men" than I am "Casino Royale", but that could simply be because I've never seen any Bond films before...
Click to expand...

That being said, they don't have anything in March that comes close to Casino Royal, and as these players go deeper into the mass market, it's the titles like Casino Royal, Pirates, and Spider-Man that will have a bigger impact then Children of Men.

HD-DVD reaching 200 dollars sooner

Will that really mean anything with Blu Ray Players going down to 300 dollars though. People aren't going to buy a 200 dollar HD-DVD player en mass when there's a 300 dollar Blu Ray player that has the bigger blockbuster titles and the most diverse industry support. There are more titles that joe average will want to buy on the Blu Ray side then there is on HD-DVD.

The Market

Retailers don't want two formats and if Blu Ray is the one that's leading, then Blu Ray is the one they'll go with. I think HD-DVDs best month will be in April but may will be Pirates and Rocky land. More and more we're seeing retailers choosing Blu Ray or putting on Blu Ray promotional deals. You can argue but what about if they do the same for HD-DVD, but that's only if retailers are interested in promoting HD-DVD at this point, it's a chicken or the Egg situation. Now to address the critisism of BR deals artificially inflating numbers, just remember that Toshiba throws in 3 free HD-DVDs when you purchase a player.

The backers

Any defections at this point are unlikely because no one wants to extend the war. You aren't going to see the CE community switch for obvious reasons, the content providers will follow to the tune of which is selling more and blu ray has shown they're giving content providers higher sales and higher sales when compared to the providers that are format neutral and also selling their titles on HD-DVD.

Beyond that there are bigger reasons like security measures that will be harder to crack obviously.

Going format Neutral would be a terrible move for the market and I doubt the content providers that are currently aligned to Blu Ray are going to defect or even think about unheavalling the market anymore when it's Blu Ray that has the rosier long term future here. As PS3s continue to sell an undetermined amount of those are being used as Blu Ray players by enthusiasts. You aren't going to bet against the house, as it were.

PS3 owners are just playing Blu Ray movies because there aren't any games to play

First it was: The PS3 won't have any real impact

The PS3 obviously has hand an impact.

Then it was: PS3 owners are just curious, the numbers after the second week go back down to their regular levels

Blu Ray numbers not only didn't decline, they continued to climb

Then it was: PS3 owners are just buying Blu Ray movies because there aren't any games out for them to buy.

I think that this arguement has a few holes in it that need to be addressed:

The overall situation

The PS3 is a price competitive Blu Ray player and also rated as one of the very best available on the market. There are enthusiasts who are buying the PS3 mainly for Blu Ray movie playback, this has pretty much been proven.

You can't just buy an HD movie and play it on your PS3 and get that experience. Unless you own an HD-TV you aren't going to be buying HD movies for it period.

People who are buying into this next gen media stuff are far more likely to be enthusiasts who stick with it then people who will buy a UMD on a whim to watch a movie on the the go. If they're buying Blu Ray movies now they aren't going to switch back to DVDs because some more good PS3 games have come out, they're probably people who buy movies in general.

The people who are owning an HD-TV and a PS3 are probably much more likely to be predesposed to buying into the movie side of the format in the first place. Meaning of those people who try Blu Ray, I'm pretty sure more of them would buy their releases on that format moving forward (thanks in part to the extra security that a person would have vesting themselves in the format thanks to the wide support afforded to it and the general "Blu Rays future is looking good" attitude among the HD crowd as of late).

In my estimation the amount of people who own an HD-TV a PS3 and who decide to try out Blu Ray on a whim and wouldn't stick with it would make up a relatively small percentage of the overall market of people who are buying Blu Ray movies. The continued sales levels of Blu Ray movies with the advent of the PS3 reflect that in my opinion, otherwise you would see numbers dropping back to how they were before 2007.


As far as the now good games situation is concerned:

1) There are plenty of good games already available on the PS3 for users to buy.

12 out of the 17 PS3 games released and reviewed on Gamerankings has a rating of above 75%

2) The PS3 userbase IS buying games and the PS3 has a relatively healthy games attach rate.

Believe it or not it have an attach rate similar to the Nintendo Wii which is considered by the media and public conciousness to have a good attach rate.

Also noted is that estimates include $70 million in software sales for the PS3 and Wii alone, based on a tie ration of 2.4 units per each system, compared to last month's 2.2 for the Wii and 2.7 for the PS3.
Click to expand...

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13105

So it's obvious that people are buying games for their PS3's and there are already good games available to buy. I mean there aren't really that many heavy hitters coming in the near future for the PS3 anyway, there are a lot of solid releases in the rsame quality as we've seen thus far. Oblivion I guess might be another top teir reelase?


It doesn't matter that HD-DVD isn't dead, it only matters that it's losing

Because the retailers and content providers want 1 format. The content providers who are format neutral really just want to make an extra buck until a winner is decided there needs to be winner and the industry will force the one with the edge to be the winner sooner rather then later because for the good of the industry there needs to be 1 winner. If I had to bet I'd bet Blu Ray. If the best HD-DVD can do in April is not lose to Blu Ray by a 2 to 1 ratio, then there's no hope for the format longer term because that's still not beating their competitor.
 
If Casino Royal can do this much, what does HD-DVD have to counter these Blu ray movies in 2007?

1. Spiderman 3
2. Pirates of the Caribbean 3
3. Fantastic Four 2
4. Ratatouille
5. Die Hard 4
6. Simpsons The Movie

These-

1. 300
2. TMNT
3. Harry Potter
4. Transformers
5. Shrek 3
6. The Golden Compass

- are all format neutral and will probably sell better on Blu Ray given the larger amount of players on the market.

HD-DVD has like

1. Bourne Ultimatum
2. Evan Almighty
3. American Gangster
4. Smokin Aces
5. Alpha Dog
6. Knocked Up

for 2007.

Bourne will be a good movie to be sure, but I'm not too sure about the others for HD-DVD.
 
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