The Guns thread

[The Overlord]

a. I'm not making excuses, I'm just disagreeing with the solution of banning certain types of guns that are already in wide circulation. It seems like the indiscriminate killings can be targeted through legislation regarding the mentally ill and Islamic extremists since those are most likely the perps of these shootings.

b. intentional or unintentional it's a lost life and kids die. People die in their homes, walking down their street etc from these types of shootings. Again, it's actually probably a bigger issue. I'm concerned that taking certain types of action against one might exacerbate the other. Black markets benefit gangs and organized crime and you would be creating one. Just like prohibition led to the mob and the current drug war led to all the street gangs we have today.

Well frankly it seems like the problem was having these guns in wide circulation was the problem in the first place, isn't it? But mitigating an existing problem is better then ignoring it.

This is like saying because murders still happen, there should be no laws against murder, at that point you are not even trying to fix the problem.

Also frankly I don't think most these shooters are mentally ill, I think most are psychopaths with a grudge against society, the treatment for these people is making sure they don't get guns or failing that punishing them as much as possible. These people know the difference between right and wrong, they don't care and there is no treatment for psychopaths. Mental treatment is not some magic solution that prevents bitter people from enacting revenge fantasies on people they decided no longer have a right to live. These shootings are pre planned and pre meditated, these are not insane acts but actively immoral acts.

I also fail to see how inaction on mass shootings does anything to solve gang violence, you are asking us to ignore one wound, so you slap a tiny bandaid on another, but you have put forward no real solutions to either problem.

And you are still ignoring my points about countries with less gun violence then the US, are you?

Also what stops gang members from legally buying assault riffles right now?

Plus isn't the black market far more expensive then the regular one? It seems like there would less assault riffles in circulation if it was banned, rather then more being around.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Well frankly it seems like the problem was having these guns in wide circulation was the problem in the first place, isn't it? But mitigating an existing problem is better then ignoring it.

This is like saying because murders still happen, there should be no laws against murder, at that point you are not even trying to fix the problem.

Also frankly I don't think most these shooters are mentally ill, I think most are psychopaths with a grudge against society, the treatment for these people is making sure they don't get guns or failing that punishing as much as possible. These people know the difference between right and wrong, they don't care and there is no treatment for psychopaths. Mental treatment is not some magic solution that prevents bitter people from enacting revenge fantasies on people they decided no longer have a right to live. These shootings are pre planned and pre meditated, these are not insane acts but actively immoral acts.

I also fail to see how inaction on mass shootings does anything to solve gang violence, you are asking us to ignore one wound, so you slap a tiny bandaid on another, but you have put forward no real solutions to either problem.

And you are still ignoring my points about countries with less gun violence then the US, are you?

Those countries are also not very good models since they are smaller in size (both area and population), mainly ethnically homogenous, have very little history of mass gun ownership like the US, and have geographic benefits that help control the flow of weapons.

 

[The Overlord]

Those countries are also not very good models since they are smaller in size (both area and population), mainly ethnically homogenous, have very little history of mass gun ownership like the US, and have geographic benefits that help control the flow of weapons.

Canada is a smaller version of the US in many ways and it still doesn't have the same gun problems. These problems will only get worse, the longer you ignore them.

I think US should try to address these issues, if the US tries and fails to do it, at least there was an attempt to make things better, trying to do something is better then doing nothing and simply hoping the problem goes away. I find too many GOP politicians simply want to accept this level of gun violence as a new reality, which is totally defeatist. There are no perfect solutions to these problems, but we have act and if a assault riffles ban is not the best solution, then I am all ears on a better solution, if anyone has one.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Those countries are also not very good models since they are smaller in size (both area and population), mainly ethnically homogenous, have very little history of mass gun ownership like the US, and have geographic benefits that help control the flow of weapons.

So yeah a history of mass gun ownership is a problem. Who would have thought that...

 

[summerteeth]

Well frankly it seems like the problem was having these guns in wide circulation was the problem in the first place, isn't it? But mitigating an existing problem is better then ignoring it.

This is like saying because murders still happen, there should be no laws against murder, at that point you are not even trying to fix the problem.

Also frankly I don't think most these shooters are mentally ill, I think most are psychopaths with a grudge against society, the treatment for these people is making sure they don't get guns or failing that punishing them as much as possible. These people know the difference between right and wrong, they don't care and there is no treatment for psychopaths. Mental treatment is not some magic solution that prevents bitter people from enacting revenge fantasies on people they decided no longer have a right to live. These shootings are pre planned and pre meditated, these are not insane acts but actively immoral acts.

I also fail to see how inaction on mass shootings does anything to solve gang violence, you are asking us to ignore one wound, so you slap a tiny bandaid on another, but you have put forward no real solutions to either problem.

And you are still ignoring my points about countries with less gun violence then the US, are you?

Also what stops gang members from legally buying assault riffles right now?

a. No, the problem is that there is a large demand for guns including assault rifles. The government trying to circumvent market forces usually doesn't work out too well. I'm sure you agree the War on Drugs failed, but you don't seem to acknowledge that part of my argument.

b. Okay, you don't "think" that they are mentally ill but the facts say otherwise. I don't know every case, but the ones that the media really focus on: Holmes (diagnosed mental illness), Lanza (diagnosed mental illness), San Bernardino (Islamic Radical), Oregon shooter (diagnosed mental illness), Planned Parenthood shooter (mental illness) Orlando (Islamic Radical). Chattanooga (Islamic Radical), Isla Vista (mental illness), Ft Hood (Islamic Radical) not sure about Roof is the only one that may not be.

c. I'm not for inaction, I keep saying that we just don't agree on the type of action. 1. I agree with Webfoot the mental health experts need to be a part of background checks so that the above doesn't happen. 2. People who are on the no fly list shouldn't be able to buy guns. If you can't fly you can't buy a gun.

d. The things webfoot brought up. I just don't see gun ownership as the major issue here when you look at Idaho for instance where you can buy real machine guns and it has the 6th most guns per capita in the country, you have one of the lowest gun murder rates per capita in the country. Lower than New Zealand, Germany, Sweden, Canada etc. Meanwhile, DC has highly restrictive gun laws and has the highest gun homicide rate per capita in the country.


e. Well gang members with criminal histories can't legally buy assault weapons. The issue is that you would be funneling money out of the economy and into these organizations. With greater money they can grow and you could see more killings as they grow.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well, there is only one thing that trumps Americans' love for guns. Their love for money. Perhaps a gun buy back program. Or a tax incentive?

 

[Sara Lance]

Well, there is only one thing that trumps Americans' love for guns. Their love for money. Perhaps a gun buy back program. Or a tax incentive?

Taxing the hell out of gun owners(especially those who have more then one gun and more powerful guns) and having them go a significant amount of testing and paperwork that has to be repeated every year would be probably the best way. Especially if you combine this by opening police controlled gun sites where for a small fee people can go in and fire any gun they want for fun.

And with time and tehcnology improving you can force people to updgrade their guns to have mandatory finger print trigger(so all those stupid children who get their parents guns stop killing themselves and so they don't get stolen) and so on

 

[Webfoot Hero]

The population, since 2004, has been increasing (9%)... the number of guns has been increasing...and the number of AR15's has exploded because the assault weapons ban ended in 2004... BUT the number of firearm homicides continue to diminish.

2004 (Assault weapons ban lifted, making AR-15s legal)
Population: 292,800,000
Firearm Homicides: 9,326
Rifle Homicides: 393
So 1 firearm homicide for every 31,396 U.S. citizens, and only 1/24 (4%) of those committed with a rifle. That includes ALL rifles, not just AR-15s, meaning something less than 4% of homicides involved an AR-15.

2014 (After 10 years of assault weapons supposedly flooding the streets)
Population: 318,900,000
Firearm Homicides: 8,124
Rifle Homicides: 248
One firearm homicide for every 39,254 U.S citizens, and only 1/33 (3%) involved a rifle.

So in the 10 years since AR-15s became widely available and prolifically owned, while the U.S. population increased by 9%:
- Total # of firearm homicides have decreased
- Total # of rifle homicides have decreased
- Firearm homicide rates have decreased
- Rifle homicide rates have decreased

 

[The Overlord]

a. No, the problem is that there is a large demand for guns including assault rifles. The government trying to circumvent market forces usually doesn't work out too well. I'm sure you agree the War on Drugs failed, but you don't seem to acknowledge that part of my argument.

b. Okay, you don't "think" that they are mentally ill but the facts say otherwise. I don't know every case, but the ones that the media really focus on: Holmes (diagnosed mental illness), Lanza (diagnosed mental illness), San Bernardino (Islamic Radical), Oregon shooter (diagnosed mental illness), Planned Parenthood shooter (mental illness) Orlando (Islamic Radical). Chattanooga (Islamic Radical), Isla Vista (mental illness), Ft Hood (Islamic Radical) not sure about Roof is the only one that may not be.

c. I'm not for inaction, I keep saying that we just don't agree on the type of action. 1. I agree with Webfoot the mental health experts need to be a part of background checks so that the above doesn't happen. 2. People who are on the no fly list shouldn't be able to buy guns. If you can't fly you can't buy a gun.

d. The things webfoot brought up. I just don't see gun ownership as the major issue here when you look at Idaho for instance where you can buy real machine guns and it has the 6th most guns per capita in the country, you have one of the lowest gun murder rates per capita in the country. Lower than New Zealand, Germany, Sweden, Canada etc. Meanwhile, DC has highly restrictive gun laws and has the highest gun homicide rate per capita in the country.


e. Well gang members with criminal histories can't legally buy assault weapons. The issue is that you would be funneling money out of the economy and into these organizations. With greater money they can grow and you could see more killings as they grow.

Well clearly gangs are still getting their hands on guns now, so clearly things are not working in this regard.
Canada has gangs too, Canada still doesn't have nearly the same level of gun violence as the US.

The war drugs comparsion does not work, because I have not heard of any civilian buying drugs and then killing 50 people. There is a bigger public safety issue here.

Also how restrictive are Florida's gun laws, considering this where this killing took place? Was every mass shooter in a state with restrictive gun laws?

Okay fine maybe I was being harsh on the mental illness argument, but okay, how about the fact that Republican politicians use this argument, but never do anything about it. Huckabee brought up this argument in regards to gun violence and his state has done a bad job of treating the mentally ill when he was in charge, so do these guys have any interest in solving the mental health crisis or is this just an excuse to do nothing about the gun issue? Heck didn't Reagan cut funding for mental treatment back in the 80s, as part of his crusade against "evil big government". The Republicans create these social ills by not thinking about the long term consequences of their actions.

I also wonder how much is this demand for assault rifles part of the destructive element in US gun culture? I think the US has a cultural problem in regards to its relationship with guns, it's not healthy and gun rights activists attitude towards guns is a big problem, it is a cavalier attitude towards guns, rather then respecting guns as tools.

 

[summerteeth]

Well clearly gangs are still getting their hands on guns now, so clearly things are not working in this regard.
Canada has gangs too, Canada still doesn't have nearly the same level of gun violence as the US.

The war drugs comparsion does not work, because I have not heard of any civilian buying drugs and then killing 50 people. There is a bigger public safety issue here.

Also how restrictive are Florida's gun laws, considering this where this killing took place? Was every mass shooter in a state with restrictive gun laws?

Okay fine maybe I was being harsh on the mental illness argument, but okay, how about the fact that Republican politicians use this argument, but never do anything about it. Huckabee brought up this argument in regards to gun violence and his state has done a bad job of treating the mentally ill when he was in charge, so do these guys have any interest in solving the mental health crisis or is this just an excuse to do nothing about the gun issue? Heck didn't Reagan cut funding for mental treatment back in the 80s, as part of his crusade against "evil big government". The Republicans create these social ills by not thinking about the long term consequences of their actions.

I also wonder how much is this demand for assault rifles part of the destructive element in US gun culture? I think the US has a cultural problem in regards to its relationship with guns, it's not healthy and gun rights activists attitude towards guns is a big problem, it is a cavalier attitude towards guns, rather then respecting guns as tools.

Well yes they do regardless of whether or not there are strict gun laws see Washington DC and Chicago which lead the country. So the argument for stricter gun laws as the solution doesn't seem to be working in those areas.

The amount of people that die from an overdose on drugs alone just about equals the amount of people who die from firearms. That's not even counting the violence caused by a gang controlled drug trade that leads to many of these mass shootings. That's sort of beside the point though. The reason why I brought up the war on drugs is to point out the failure in the ability of the Federal Government to thwart market forces. The Government says certain drugs are illegal but the sale and distribution of those drugs continues because of the demand for those products. You can also look at prostitution as another example. This fuels gang violence by taking money out of the economy and funneling it towards black markets operated by criminals and gangs. Adding another item or stream of revenue to these black markets isn't going to help stop the majority of mass shootings (which are gang related) and you could actually see an increase as organized crime would profit from these new laws.

I agree more needs to be done to treat mental illness. Jerry Brown (current and former Governor) Actually saw the largest decline in mental patient treatment in California when he was previously Governor in the 70's. A lot of it was based off the influence of One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest. Reagan gets the blame for it, but it had been building up in the 70's and then cities and communities had little recourse in the 80's to deal with the problem.

The discharge of mental patients was accelerated in the late 1960's and early 1970's in some states as a result of a series of court decisions that limited the commitment powers of state and local officials.

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html?pagewanted=all

She had then become mentally ill, was hospitalized, and discharged. While living on the street, Brown was observed urinating on the sidewalk, defecating in the gutter, tearing up money given to her by passersby, and running into traffic. New York mayor Ed Koch ordered her to be involuntarily hospitalized, well aware that the Civil Liberties Union’s lawyers would contest the case. Koch’s statement reflected the sentiments of many: “If the crazies want to sue me, they have every right to sue, and by crazies I’m . . . talking about those who say, ‘No, you have no right to intervene to help.’ ” The civil liberty lawyers prevailed, and the civil right to be both psychotic and homeless thus added another legal wrinkle to the ongoing homeless debate.

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

I love how everyone brings up DC and Chicago to try and make some point that stricter gun laws don't work. Stricter gun laws only work when everyone is adhering to them. You can't say this little bubble here is hard to get guns because guess what happens then? You go outside the bubble and get your guns. It's the dumbest argument in the gun control debate.

We need common sense laws and then those laws to be enforced. Obama just came out and said a few weeks ago that there are American citizens who frequent terrorist websites that he can put on the no-fly list but can't stop them from legally purchasing a firearm. Sound familiar?

Without getting into the whole mess that is restricting access for those with mental health issues we can do things like barring private sales at gun shows with little or no background information, and we can also make it a crime that if you don't go through the proper channels to sell your firearm and it is then used in an act of violence you should be held responsible.

We have companies that are making smart-firearms and yet gun nuts are sending them death threats simply because they make a weapon certain segments of the population want.

 

[summerteeth]

I love how everyone brings up DC and Chicago to try and make some point that stricter gun laws don't work. Stricter gun laws only work when everyone is adhering to them. You can't say this little bubble here is hard to get guns because guess what happens then? You go outside the bubble and get your guns. It's the dumbest argument in the gun control debate.

We need common sense laws and then those laws to be enforced. Obama just came out and said a few weeks ago that there are American citizens who frequent terrorist websites that he can put on the no-fly list but can't stop them from legally purchasing a firearm. Sound familiar?

Without getting into the whole mess that is restricting access for those with mental health issues we can do things like barring private sales at gun shows with little or no background information, and we can also make it a crime that if you don't go through the proper channels to sell your firearm and it is then used in an act of violence you should be held responsible.

We have companies that are making smart-firearms and yet gun nuts are sending them death threats simply because they make a weapon certain segments of the population want.

Not really, you would also have to explain why places like Idaho have such low rates of gun violence even though they have high rates of gun ownership and little gun laws.

Obama is 100% right on this and apparently Trump agrees as well. Maybe he can force the NRA to move on this issue. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/donald-trump-nra-meeting/index.html

 

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Not really, you would also have to explain why places like Idaho have such low rates of gun violence even though they have high rates of gun ownership and little gun laws.

Obama is 100% right on this and apparently Trump agrees as well. Maybe he can force the NRA to move on this issue. http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/politics/donald-trump-nra-meeting/index.html

So you really need me to explain to you why there is a significant difference between Idaho, who's largest city is Boise with a population of a little over 200k compared to Chicago which is a major metropolitan hub of America known throughout the world and boast a population of 2.7 million?

This is a laughable argument you made.

 

[regwec]

Taxing the hell out of gun owners(especially those who have more then one gun and more powerful guns) and having them go a significant amount of testing and paperwork that has to be repeated every year would be probably the best way. Especially if you combine this by opening police controlled gun sites where for a small fee people can go in and fire any gun they want for fun.

I am pretty sure most gun nuts would fail any verbal reasoning test of moderate difficulty.

 

[Matt Mortem]

Gun registration and licensing should be mandatory. Same as cars. If we accept it for automobiles why not guns.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Gun violence is not a problem. Access to guns is not a problem:

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-...yfriend-admitted-killing-berthoud-teen-ashley

Tanner Flores admitted to shooting his ex-girlfriend twice in the head, cleaning her body and driving the corpse from Larimer County to the Western Slope town of Collbran, about five hours from the spot she was killed, according to an arrest affidavit.

Flores, 18, is accused of killing Ashley Doolittle near Carter Lake, in unincorporated Larimer County. Mesa County deputies arrested him Friday after his family advised an investigator that Flores' truck was parked in the driveway of his deceased grandfather's home. Flores faces charges of first-degree murder and second-degree kidnapping.

Flores was upset that Doolittle had broken up with him after a relationship that had lasted more than a year, a friend of his told investigators, according to the affidavit.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I do wish liberals would learn some ****ing gun terminology. I'm in favor of putting serious restrictions on certain guns, magazines, etc. But when liberals talk about banning "assault weapons" and automatic rifles, I have to cringe.

I don't pretend to be an expert, but when it comes to this issue, liberals need to work on being less emotional.

 

[regwec]

I feel no more need to learn the nomenclature of guns than I do of any other toys.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I do wish liberals would learn some ****ing gun terminology. I'm in favor of putting serious restrictions on certain guns, magazines, etc. But when liberals talk about banning "assault weapons" and automatic rifles, I have to cringe.

I don't pretend to be an expert, but when it comes to this issue, liberals need to work on being less emotional.

Growing up I was big into guns in films and games. I it is actually how I learned a lot about them. Making models for Counter Strike and stuff like that. I have never touched a gun in my life. So I know a bit of gun lingo.

My question is what exactly out of place talking about "assaults weapons" or "automatic rifles"?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Growing up I was big into guns in films and games. I it is actually how I learned a lot about them. Making models for Counter Strike and stuff like that. I have never touched a gun in my life. So I know a bit of gun lingo.

My question is what exactly out of place talking about "assaults weapons" or "automatic rifles"?

Well, what the hell is an "assault weapon"? Seriously. Define it. It has no definition. It's a word created by politicians. "Assault rifle" actually has a standardized definition, which liberals misuse constantly to refer to any rifle that isn't bolt-action.

Most of these people don't seem to even know that there is a difference between automatic and semiautomatic.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I feel no more need to learn the nomenclature of guns than I do of any other toys.

Ignorance for the sake of ignorance. Great attitude.

 

[Marvolo]

Growing up I was big into guns in films and games. I it is actually how I learned a lot about them. Making models for Counter Strike and stuff like that. I have never touched a gun in my life. So I know a bit of gun lingo.

My question is what exactly out of place talking about "assaults weapons" or "automatic rifles"?

Because the guns civillians buy are semi-automatic rifles. Not automatic. Most celebrities that speak out about guns dont seem to have any ****ing clue about the difference between semi auto and auto. They seem to think the AR-15 is no different from an M4. They seem to not grasp the fact that automatic weapons are already banned in the US. The only way to get an automatic weapon in the US is a class 3 license which is a PIA to get and the requirements that must be met to get one are very strict. And even with a Class 3 license the gun has to be made prior to a certain year due to a law passed during Reagan's presidency.

If these people want to speak about guns they need to actually know what the hell they are talking about otherwise they come across like clueless snobs.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Because the guns civillians buy are semi-automatic rifles. Not automatic. Most celebrities that speak out about guns dont seem to have any ****ing clue about the difference between semi auto and auto. They seem to think the AR-15 is no different from an M4. They seem to not grasp the fact that automatic weapons are already banned in the US. The only way to get an automatic weapon in the US is a class 3 license which is a PIA to get and the requirements that must be met to get one are very strict. And even with a Class 3 license the gun has to be made prior to a certain year due to a law passed during Reagan's presidency.

If these people want to speak about guns they need to actually know what the hell they are talking about otherwise they come across like clueless snobs.

I do know they are semi-automatics. But the same companies who sell these semi-automatic rifles sell conversion kits that make it very easy to turn a semi-automatic weapon into a full automatic weapon. Heck there are youtube videos on AR-15s. And this of course goes for many pistols as well.

As to the law about getting an automatic weapon. So what happens when this person passes away? Can they pass their automatic weapons to their relatives?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well, what the hell is an "assault weapon"? Seriously. Define it. It has no definition. It's a word created by politicians. "Assault rifle" actually has a standardized definition, which liberals misuse constantly to refer to any rifle that isn't bolt-action.

Most of these people don't seem to even know that there is a difference between automatic and semiautomatic.

When someone says assault weapon I'd say they are talking about about any rifle with a standard magazine of 25 rounds plus and can be converted into an automatic weapon.

 

[Marvolo]

I do know they are semi-automatics. But the same companies who sell these semi-automatic rifles sell conversion kits that make it very easy to turn a semi-automatic weapon into a full automatic weapon. Heck there are youtube videos on AR-15s. And this of course goes for many pistols as well.

As to the law about getting an automatic weapon. So what happens when this person passes away? Can they pass their automatic weapons to their relatives?

Companies in the US do not legally sell coveraion kits. They are very illegal and being caught with a conversion kit is a serious federal crime. Some do howerever sell "bump stocks". These have springs in them. When the gun is thrust back into the shoulder it springs forward ramming the then reset trigger into the finger so essentially the shooter doesnt have to move his finger after the first shot. It simulates an automstic rifle but the fun isnt technically an automatic and yes I think bump stocks ahould be outlawed. And a bump stock system can conceivably rigged to any semi automatic long rifle. Not just AR-15 style weapons.

And no you cant gift a class 3 weapon or inherit a class 3 weapon. It is a serious federal crime.