The Immortal Iron Fist Thread - Part 1

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]244321[/split]

 

[GNR]

We all saw the announcement in the last issue of DD.

Bru also talks about it here:http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=78460

That Aja's art looks fantastic from those 3 preview pages alone.I am so looking forward to this title.Bru launching an ongoing of a C-Lister with potential?That is going to be gold.

Oh yea,Matt Fraction is the guy relaunching Punisher in the MU,kickass.

Discuss!!!!

 

[Sebastos]

Edit.

 

[Sebastos]

Yet another cool Iron Fist pic David Aja recently did:

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Why the heck did Aja stop drawing Iron Fist if he's still doing sketches of him like every other day now?

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Ha, seriously

 

[JewishHobbit]

What is he doing now?

 

[kguillou]

Seriously, what is Aja doing now? I hate it when artists start to gain a little popularity, they end up dropping from the face of the earth. He should be doing another ironfist book.

 

[Sebastos]

Why the heck did Aja stop drawing Iron Fist if he's still doing sketches of him like every other day now?

I forget the reason, but man would I love to see Aja on an Iron Fist book again.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd love to see him try a more overtly superheroic comic. Like a fill-in arc on Secret Avengers or something.

 

[NDX]

I wouldn't mind seeing Aja take one a supernatural one shot with Hellstorm. Him or Gabriel Hardman.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Hardman's Hulk is actually exactly the thing that got me thinking about Aja on a bigger superhero comic. Never would've thought Hardman's style would work so well with Rulk, yet it does.

 

[NDX]

Is that a story worth following? I don't much like Rulk as a character, but he's interesting to draw.

 

[kguillou]

Eh...Aja on Hulk doesnt seem like a good match. Thats like asking Michael Lark to draw a book like Thor. Aja works well with the street heroes. I think he'd be great on Secret Avengers.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Is that a story worth following? I don't much like Rulk as a character, but he's interesting to draw.

I only read the issue where Thor guest-starred. That one was surprisingly good. If I had any interest at all in Ross as a character, I would've probably stuck with it.

 

[NightBeetle]

Power Man and Iron Fist #1 Preview

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Don of the Dead returns!

 

[Sebastos]

Looks like Danny will be keeping the white suit afterall.

 

[Dread]

Not a fan of the white suit. It still reeks of Danny shopping at the same store as Jean Grey.

I am a fan of Don of the Dead returning.

Looks to be a great series. The Power Man back-up strip in ASM was pretty spiffy, too.

 

[kguillou]

I'm not a fan of the white suit either, but its not a biggie.

My issue is...why's Danny wasting time with this kid? Why cant we just have a Luke Cage/ Ironfist series, that would kick so much ass and i'd think it'd be a no brainer.

 

[Dread]

I'm not a fan of the white suit either, but its not a biggie.

My issue is...why's Danny wasting time with this kid? Why cant we just have a Luke Cage/ Ironfist series, that would kick so much ass and i'd think it'd be a no brainer.

The SHADOWLAND: POWER MAN series spelled out why Iron Fist is training Victor Alvarez. In a way, he ties into both Rand and Cage's past.

Luke Cage and Iron Fist have not been able to translate Avengers appearances into sales success outside of it. Luke Cage has had a few mini's outside of NEW AVENGERS that sank like a stone. Iron Fist at least had his series last 27 issues, although 14 of them were written by Brubaker and/or Fraction, two hot writers. Marvel probably thinks a real Cage/Fist buddy series wouldn't sell, or isn't "new" enough.

It actually is very common that when Marvel seeks to relaunch a franchise, they don't relaunch it with the elements it had in it's prime that made it notable. That is too easy. Instead they try to find a new hook or angle to sell it with, sometimes a hook or angle that has nothing to do with the franchise itself. NAMOR and the NEW WARRIORS have had at least 1-2 relaunches like that. The last two NEW WARRIORS series were about a reality TV show super-team and a bunch of depowered former X-Men led by Night Thrasher's brother. The only HEROES FOR HIRE launch that starred Rand and Cage was the one from the late 90's, I think. The ones since haven't starred them; they're only guest characters. Amazingly, relaunching a franchise with new hooks rather than what once made it work has only failed every time it is been attempted for an ongoing series, but the great thing about Marvel is they're so smart, they're beyond learning from mistakes.

In terms of story, I think the idea is that Luke Cage and Iron Fist have moved onto doing their own thing more than they team up. Cage is running the T-Bolts and Rand is running his dojo. They are both NEW AVENGERS and team up but they don't live together and all that anymore. Or something.

I actually like Victor Alvarez and think the angle of Rand playing mentor is interesting. This series is a mini series, and I liked Fred Van Lente on more or less anything.

 

[kguillou]

The SHADOWLAND: POWER MAN series spelled out why Iron Fist is training Victor Alvarez. In a way, he ties into both Rand and Cage's past.

Luke Cage and Iron Fist have not been able to translate Avengers appearances into sales success outside of it. Luke Cage has had a few mini's outside of NEW AVENGERS that sank like a stone. Iron Fist at least had his series last 27 issues, although 14 of them were written by Brubaker and/or Fraction, two hot writers. Marvel probably thinks a real Cage/Fist buddy series wouldn't sell, or isn't "new" enough.

It actually is very common that when Marvel seeks to relaunch a franchise, they don't relaunch it with the elements it had in it's prime that made it notable. That is too easy. Instead they try to find a new hook or angle to sell it with, sometimes a hook or angle that has nothing to do with the franchise itself. NAMOR and the NEW WARRIORS have had at least 1-2 relaunches like that. The last two NEW WARRIORS series were about a reality TV show super-team and a bunch of depowered former X-Men led by Night Thrasher's brother. The only HEROES FOR HIRE launch that starred Rand and Cage was the one from the late 90's, I think. The ones since haven't starred them; they're only guest characters. Amazingly, relaunching a franchise with new hooks rather than what once made it work has only failed every time it is been attempted for an ongoing series, but the great thing about Marvel is they're so smart, they're beyond learning from mistakes.

In terms of story, I think the idea is that Luke Cage and Iron Fist have moved onto doing their own thing more than they team up. Cage is running the T-Bolts and Rand is running his dojo. They are both NEW AVENGERS and team up but they don't live together and all that anymore. Or something.

I actually like Victor Alvarez and think the angle of Rand playing mentor is interesting. This series is a mini series, and I liked Fred Van Lente on more or less anything.

Thats a great point Dread. Marvel does do that alot.....why? I dont get it. Marvel knows this Power Man/ Ironfist series is gonna tank so why not say, get David Aja to draw it and give a boost or something? Obviously Ironfist was at his best when Aja was drawing him with brubaker and Fraction. So why not at least put him back on there?

I mean, maybe im just being cynical and its not nearly that easy, but if theres an element that worked well with a certain character then why not bring that element back? Especially when we're dealing with a character like Ironfist who isn't that popular?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd prefer the green suit, but white isn't a deal-breaker or anything.

 

[Dread]

Thats a great point Dread. Marvel does do that alot.....why? I dont get it. Marvel knows this Power Man/ Ironfist series is gonna tank so why not say, get David Aja to draw it and give a boost or something? Obviously Ironfist was at his best when Aja was drawing him with brubaker and Fraction. So why not at least put him back on there?

I mean, maybe im just being cynical and its not nearly that easy, but if theres an element that worked well with a certain character then why not bring that element back? Especially when we're dealing with a character like Ironfist who isn't that popular?

Without being insulting, I think Marvel does this because they over-think, or try to out smart their audience. The philosophy is, "this franchise isn't as popular as we would like it to be, that is why it got canceled, so there must be something that didn't work and thus we have to tinker with it." The idea that things run in cycles and everything needs a rest is a foreign concept to an editorial regime in which no outside opinion is heard, and all interior opinions are about how awesome things are.

For example, nobody at Marvel goes, "the New Warriors ended in the 90's because after 75 issues it needed a rest". They go, "it ended after 75 issues because obviously something was wrong with the concept so we'd better tinker with it." The idea of comics that never end, such as your ACTION COMICS or your AMAZING SPIDER-MAN or so on, makes it seem as if something that is popular should always remain in print, otherwise something is wrong. In this modern age when even Wolverine and Fantastic Four need relaunches and renumbering stunts, though, this is perhaps an old opinion that needs to go. But change is difficult for people who have been in the biz 10, 20, 40 years sometimes.

Also, a relaunch of a franchise is often seen as an easier way to try to sell a new idea. Using the New Warriors again, Marvel thought that a series about Reality TV superheroes was a good concept - and to a degree maybe it is. However, trying to sell it as a new series with new characters would result in low sales. Retailers and fans are not accepting of new characters - perhaps because Marvel tends to abandon them at the first sign of struggle (or go the opposite route and have them guest star so often your head spins). Thus, the new concept gets slapped onto an old franchise and the idea is to use that to springboard it. The downside is that this act neither fools the old fans, and newer fans can smell the desperation. Marvel genuinely believes their tactical moves are mysterious and clever, even though, literally, every comic reader who buys their comics from a shop can see them coming. For example, in a year's time Marvel will believe they are being brilliant when they end FF and relaunch FANTASTIC FOUR #600. The problem is every retailer knows they are doing that, and so does any fan with even a passing knowledge of the market.

Marvel is plagued by something that in social psychology is called "groupthink". It has plagued them at the very least since the new century and it may still plague them.

I suppose someone might go, "There aren't enough fans of New Warriors to play it straight," or "there aren't enough Power Man/Iron Fist" fans or whatnot. And maybe there aren't. But that audience hasn't been reached out to in a while. The irony is by dressing up so many old franchises in "trying to be hip" clothes, it only gives the impression of how "old" they are and that alone repels people. If you are confident about something you don't act like you are ashamed of it and put it's best foot forward.

To be fair, I actually like this new Power Man. I think Fred Van Lente is a great writer and I like his new character. Victor has ties to two legacies and so on. That said, it has been a very long time since we got a Rand/Cage team up series. Or a New Warriors series that actually had those characters in it as the stars. Before you write off a franchise, Marvel, at least try actually selling that particular franchise not The Emperor's Latest Groove.

 

[kguillou]

Yeah but I mean, what im trying to understand is, if you have a winning formula for a character then why wouldnt you follow it? Captain America for example. No one bought Cap's book until Brubaker and Epting came along and tried a different approach with the character, they made the book more of a dark espionage book rather than a superhero one and that formula worked and continues to work for Cap and now he's a big player in the MU again.

Now by all means, even when Brubaker, Fraction and Aja were on the book, Ironfist wasnt exactly selling gangbusters but it was garnering critical acclaim and selling steadily and gaining a fanbase. As soon as those guys left, the book sank like the titantic because the creative team that made them good was no longer there. Now of course, you cant FORCE Brubaker or Aja to work on the book forever i guess but look at what happened with Daredevil. Bendis and Maleev worked magic on the character and found a winning formula. So when it was time for them to leave, Marvel put a creative team on the book that was damn near identical to Bendis and Maleev's style because that was what made Daredevil work.

I guess what im saying is... BRING AJA BACK DAMMIT! Or if you cant, find an artist or a writer that could evoke that same atmosphere that made the book work with that creative team. Again, i fully acknowledge that maybe its not nearly as easy as it sounds but i dont think people want to read about Danny running around with this young kid with funny looking glasses. Give us the semi-noir, mystical kung fu laden stories that brought Ironfist back from obscurity. I know im not being totally fair to Van Lente, but when i read that preview it just made me miss Brubaker and Aja.