The Jared Leto is The Joker(?) Thread

[The Guard]

Sorry, I mean in the SUICIDE SQUAD film.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Nothing of this is true. She wasn't meant for anything. She's just yet another toy of his, he has her heart and she proves useful from time to time. But mostly he doesn't give a damn about her, he isn't even interested in her whereabouts.

Agreed. Suicide squad ruin that. They not get Joker and Harley relationship. Joker made look like silly boyfriend who miss his sweetheart lol.

 

[2kt09]

Sorry, I mean in the SUICIDE SQUAD film.

That description is based on after he jumped into the chemical bath to retrieve her. Since then, he's been keeping in touch via her phone and kept trying to rescue her = "lovesick"

 

[Doctor Octopus]

It so annoying see Joker just trying to get Harley back all through movie. He whipped lol. Most cringey line he say when he rescues her in helicopter and says he has grape soda on ice for them.

 

[Flint Marko]

"Lovesick: in love, or missing the person one loves, so much that one is unable to act normally."

Don't see how that's far off the mark.

 

[The Guard]

"Lovesick: in love, or missing the person one loves, so much that one is unable to act normally."

Don't see how that's far off the mark.

I guess there's an element of "lovesick" to what's going on with him, he's kind of unfulfilled and lying around surrounded by weapons and baby clothes and so on in that one sequence.

I guess it's the lovesick "puppy" thing that gets me. That conjures up images of someone following her around and begging to be loved. It's not quite that in the film. She's his property, and he wants her back.

As has already been pointed out, The Joker treats her more as an object in the film, even seemingly being willing to "loan" her out to another thug, and he seems almost upset at himself that he cares about having her in his life at certain times, in both cuts of the film. He orders her around, he places her in danger, he essentially demands to be loved and sacrificed for...I don't see "lovesick puppy" in all that.

It was further stated that he was pining and pathetic. And here's the thing with that. The Joker acting pining and pathetic (be it an act he puts on or a serious emotion) is well within his character's potential. I've seen him act pining and pathetic in the comics over not having the perfect idea for his next crime, let alone not being with Harley Quinn. The post BTAS-No Man's Land era Joker exhibited this behavior often. So unless we insist on Joker fitting some narrow and limited criteria for the character, is that really an issue?

 

[The Joker]

That's totally different though. That's Joker wanting to be the best at what he does, and when he runs out of ideas it depresses him. Remember in Harley's origin story, Mad Love, when he can't come up with a great death trap idea for Batman;

Losing the fun of the battle with Batman also depresses him. In DKR he went into a depressed comatose state for 10 years after Batman retired. When he thought Batman was dead in TAS, he was really upset;

[YT]GdXCUHk1pg8[/YT]


Nobody is criticizing Joker's capacity to get depressed or upset. It's what he gets depressed or upset about that makes the difference. In this case missing Harley was totally wrong and pathetic for him. Unless Harley has something he wants, she doesn't register on his radar. SS gave no indication he needed Harley back because she had something he wanted, or he needed her for something. Letoker only wanted her back simply because he missed her. He couldn't function without her. That's where lovesick and pathetic comes from. That's not the Joker. The Joker would happily leave Harley to die and go off into the sunset by himself without a second thought, replace her with another henchgirl etc. I couldn't ever imagine Letoker doing any of those things.

 

[gdw]

That was hilarious when he's looking at the audition line up for new henchgirls.

[YT]m3pJ9mE5ogo[/YT]

And well said, Boom

Yet he still seems stuck on REPLACING her. Filling the void left by her, but more specifically, he's striking out at her to get under her skin. This is still all about her.

And yes, "He uses her for his own gains, but has shown time and time again that he's willing to throw her to the wayside." Absolutely, this is ALSO true. These are not mutually exclusive notions, especially for the Joker.

It is entirely at his whim. WHEN he wants her, no one else can have her. When HE rejects her, then we see him going after the good she stole. However, even this shows his inability to let her go.
He cannot let her be successful on her own, hence why he goes after her and Ivy to take their stolen goods. Why on Earth did he target THEM for this? Why not just steal the goods from any other thieves, or any other plan of his own he could preoccupy himself with?
Because he ultimately can't.

Hell, even when he's tries to kill her, he's quite often making it about HER. Hell, he killed dozens of random people, chained them up, allowed them to rot to varying degrees, just to try and "convince" Harley she was NOT the only one. Obviously he's trying to convince himself of her insignificance.
No one goes that far out of their way to convince someone they do NOT mean something to them, if they really don't.

Similarly, when he locked her in a rocket, he speaks to her about the feelings he's starting to have, and the twist being that he "hates" those feelings. Now, this does not show that he actually "loves" her, but rather that she has gotten under his skin in a way that he's not familiar with, and is, ultimately, uncomfortable with. Hence why he's literally trying to launch his "problem" into space.

She affects him, and in a way he is not used to experiencing. Batman is the only one who really affects him prior to her, and his constant pushing her away, and puling her back in, is his constant struggle with this, and his attempt to control it.

Batman he is familiar with, and their relationship is something he's always been full aware of, whereas everything with Harley ultimately snuck up on him while he thought he was just having fun, messing with another toy.


Ultimately what he "feels" for Harley, and what she "means" to him is nothing like any of the ways we relate to other people. It is not something we can genuinely relate to based on any of our relationships with others.
She is, like all people, essentially an "object" to him. She's become that object he can't seem to truly let go of.


Again, all of this is about the Joker and Harley of the books, and how they, apparently, ORIGINALLY shot their relationship for the film. This is NOT describing the relationship portrayed in the theatrical cut of Suicide Squad.

 

[The Guard]

Oh she's very much an object to him in the theatrical cut, too.

 

[The Joker]

Yet he still seems stuck on REPLACING her. Filling the void left by her, but more specifically, he's striking out at her to get under her skin. This is still all about her.

It had nothing to do with any void left by her. He says in his own words it's cheaper to hire a new hench girl. She's hired help. Just like Harley was. If it was all about Harley, he'd have just bought her freedom like he bought everything else in that episode. He could certainly easily afford it.

But he hires some random eye candy girl instead of the real deal simply because it's cheaper. Hired being the operative word. Goes back to what Batman said to Harley in Mad Love.

She was just hired help to him. Nothing more. If ever that was proven, it was in that episode, Joker Millions. The way he can just replace her with another paid hench wench without a second thought.

And yes, "He uses her for his own gains, but has shown time and time again that he's willing to throw her to the wayside." Absolutely, this is ALSO true. These are not mutually exclusive notions, especially for the Joker.

Yes, they are. He uses her when she has a usefulness to him, and he abandons her when she doesn't. That's their relationship. Like hired help.

It is entirely at his whim. WHEN he wants her, no one else can have her.

Name a time when someone else wanted her at the same time he did, and he wouldn't allow it.

When HE rejects her, then we see him going after the good she stole. However, even this shows his inability to let her go.

How does stealing her loot, but not trying to get her back show his inability to let her go? He has let her go. He is not trying to remove her from her partnership with Ivy, or get her back by his side. He is simply being an a-hole and stealing their cash.

He cannot let her be successful on her own, hence why he goes after her and Ivy to take their stolen goods. Why on Earth did he target THEM for this? Why not just steal the goods from any other thieves, or any other plan of his own he could preoccupy himself with?
Because he ultimately can't.

He targets them because it was easy cash. He knew they had just been on a huge publicized crime spree. How many other thieves did he know of who were making so much cash they were called the queens of crime? Then Harley phoned him, he traced the call, and went to make himself an easy buck. "I'm only staying long enough to collect what's mine".

Simple and straight forward.

Hell, even when he's tries to kill her, he's quite often making it about HER. Hell, he killed dozens of random people, chained them up, allowed them to rot to varying degrees, just to try and "convince" Harley she was NOT the only one. Obviously he's trying to convince himself of her insignificance.
No one goes that far out of their way to convince someone they do NOT mean something to them, if they really don't.

What are you talking about? Joker often make a big deal out of his victims to make a point. Look at his most famous one in The Killing Joke. Look at what he did to Commissioner Gordon, using his own daughter to try and drive him insane. You trying to tell me because he went to all that trouble that means he cares about the Gordons? That they are somehow significant to him?

Similarly, when he locked her in a rocket, he speaks to her about the feelings he's starting to have, and the twist being that he "hates" those feelings. Now, this does not show that he actually "loves" her, but rather that she has gotten under his skin in a way that he's not familiar with, and is, ultimately, uncomfortable with. Hence why he's literally trying to launch his "problem" into space.

No it doesn't. It shows he is repulsed by the idea of having any kind of feelings for anyone, and he is getting rid of the source of that disgust.

She affects him, and in a way he is not used to experiencing. Batman is the only one who really affects him prior to her, and his constant pushing her away, and puling her back in, is his constant struggle with this, and his attempt to control it.

If she affected him in any way, explain why he;

- Left her to die with the rest of Gotham when he planned to nuke the city with an atomic bomb he stole
- Why he hired a cheaper henchgirl rather than fork out cash he could well afford to get Harley free from Arkham
- Why he was only interested in the money she and Ivy stole, rather than taking her back into his gang if it was all about her
- Why he pushed her out a window in Mad Love

Batman he is familiar with, and their relationship is something he's always been full aware of, whereas everything with Harley ultimately snuck up on him while he thought he was just having fun, messing with another toy.

Considering he manipulated and used Harley's romantic feelings for him to turn her into a crazy loyal infatuated hench wench, that is completely inaccurate. He played her like a fiddle. He still does.

Ultimately what he "feels" for Harley, and what she "means" to him is nothing like any of the ways we relate to other people. It is not something we can genuinely relate to based on any of our relationships with others.
She is, like all people, essentially an "object" to him. She's become that object he can't seem to truly let go of.

He feels nothing for Harley. She means nothing to him. She is just one of the hired help to use and abuse. When you post evidence to the contrary, I'll concede to your point. Evidence, not your own interpretation.

Again, all of this is about the Joker and Harley of the books, and how they, apparently, ORIGINALLY shot their relationship for the film. This is NOT describing the relationship portrayed in the theatrical cut of Suicide Squad.

That we agree on.

 

[gdw]

You're making a HUGE mistake with presuming Joker is always acting fully consciously. One of the biggest factors of Joker's side of their relationship is his denial. If he really didn't care about her, he would never have wasted SO DAMN MUCH time trying to convince "her" that he doesn't.
You simply don't dwell on convincing people you don't care about them if you really don't care about them.


When he's stealing her loot, it's not about trying to steal her back; it's that he can't let her go. Again, hence why he's stealing HER loot. It's about injecting himself into her life, but specifically on HIS terms, and in a way that is clearly trying to make a point of how much he does "not" care about her.
Him ultimately going after her loot is NOT to show US how little he cares about her, it's to CONVINCE her, and himself, of how little he cares, or needs, her. He's peacocking saying 'See, I don't need YOU. I'm just taking your stuff.'

It's like when someone breaks up with a person, then can't stand to see that other person move on. Even striking out to sabotage them or their future relationships. That's PRECISELY what Joker is doing, constantly with her.

They are not taking any action to directly get them back, but they can not let them go. This IS him going after her because he can't let her be happy, or successful, without him.

Again, with the hired help, it has nothing to do with it being cheaper. That's certainly something Joker would say as part of his own rationalisation, to convince himself, or as part of his effort to torment her. Either way, it's still about HER.

If it weren't they wouldn't all be dressed like her. He wouldn't go out of his way to rub her face in it.
If it had anything to do with hiring help, then he would not have wasted the hours, days, even months, to set up the pit of rotting "others" just to torment HER.


As for what Batman says to her in Mad Love, yeah, at that point, and especially her time as Harleen, which is largely what Batman references, it's absolutely true. She was nothing more than something to pass the time, and a means to an end, AT FIRST.
At this point, Batman probably hadn't even seen it, as it had only just begun. Also, Batman's ****ing playing her. While there's truth in his words (hence why they're so effective) he's deliberately player her, and plucking very specific strings. It's another beautifully played mirroring of Batman and Joker in the story, despite the difference in motives, and degree.

This is still only the beginning of her story (and her relationship with the Joker.) It is only after Joker FIRST rejects her that we get to see how much she has gotten under his skin.

 

[gdw]

[YT]EtJNYXFHn4k[/YT]

Yeah, clearly, he doesn't care at all that she's moved on without him.

 

[The Joker]

You're making a HUGE mistake with presuming Joker is always acting fully consciously. One of the biggest factors of Joker's side of their relationship is his denial. If he really didn't care about her, he would never have wasted SO DAMN MUCH time trying to convince "her" that he doesn't.
You simply don't dwell on convincing people you don't care about them if you really don't care about them.

I'm sorry, but you are the one making the huge mistake if you think Joker making a big deal out of something to make a point is out of character for him. The Joker is a showman. When he is making a point about something, especially when it's about himself, he makes a big production about it. Hammering home the point to Harley that she is insignificant to him is exactly that. Joker putting in effort to make a point about himself. Like in TKJ when he's making the point that everyone is one bad day away from being as crazy as he is.

When he's stealing her loot, it's not about trying to steal her back; it's that he can't let her go. Again, hence why he's stealing HER loot. It's about injecting himself into her life, but specifically on HIS terms, and in a way that is clearly trying to make a point of how much he does "not" care about her.
Him ultimately going after her loot is NOT to show US how little he cares about her, it's to CONVINCE her, and himself, of how little he cares, or needs, her. He's peacocking saying 'See, I don't need YOU. I'm just taking your stuff.'

That makes no sense. He already kicked her out of the gang. She was gone. Done with. Rejected. He had already made that point. Taking their money was exactly that; he wanted the loot. He was not trying to convince her of anything. He'd already demonstrated he can get rid of her.

It's like when someone breaks up with a person, then can't stand to see that other person move on. Even striking out to sabotage them or their future relationships. That's PRECISELY what Joker is doing, constantly with her.

If that was the case, every time she teamed with Ivy, or joined the Suicide Squad, or went and did anything without him, Joker would be there to spoil it, or hire someone to spoil it for him. But he doesn't.

Your theory holds no credibility.

They are not taking any action to directly get them back, but they can not let them go. This IS him going after her because he can't let her be happy, or successful, without him.

You already said that, but have still failed to explain why he doesn't always try and sabotage her when she is off doing endeavors with Ivy, or the Suicide Squad. Why in TAS was he not ruining her hi jinx with Ivy in 'Holiday Knight', or 'Girls Nite Out' etc?

Rhetorical question. It's because he doesn't care what she does without him.

Again, with the hired help, it has nothing to do with it being cheaper. That's certainly something Joker would say as part of his own rationalisation, to convince himself, or as part of his effort to torment her. Either way, it's still about HER.

How can it be about her when she is totally irrelevant here? He is not acknowledging her, he is leaving her to rot in Arkham while he moves on with his millions and a brand new hench girl. This far flung theory about him rationalizing to himself is baseless conjecture on your part. It flies in the face of what was shown. He doesn't give a hoot about Harley. He leaves her at the beginning of the episode to be captured. He leaves her to rot in Arkham when he could buy her freedom. You psychoanalyze this as him trying to convince himself he doesn't need her. No sorry, but you're totally wrong on this. It is exactly as it's presented; he doesn't care about her. Simple as that.

If it weren't they wouldn't all be dressed like her. He wouldn't go out of his way to rub her face in it.
If it had anything to do with hiring help, then he would not have wasted the hours, days, even months, to set up the pit of rotting "others" just to torment HER.

How did he go out of his way to rub her face in it? I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to spending months with rotting bodies. What episode were you watching?

As for what Batman says to her in Mad Love, yeah, at that point, and especially her time as Harleen, which is largely what Batman references, it's absolutely true. She was nothing more than something to pass the time, and a means to an end, AT FIRST.
At this point, Batman probably hadn't even seen it, as it had only just begun. Also, Batman's ****ing playing her. While there's truth in his words (hence why they're so effective) he's deliberately player her, and plucking very specific strings. It's another beautifully played mirroring of Batman and Joker in the story, despite the difference in motives, and degree.

Batman probably this/maybe this or that......more baseless conjecture. This was Harley's origin story. This was spelling out to fans how she got where she was, and was a microscopic look at her relationship with Joker. The scene between Batman and Harley was one of the key scenes because it was FINALLY someone telling Harley the harsh home truths about her relationship with the Joker.

Simple as that.

This is still only the beginning of her story (and her relationship with the Joker.) It is only after Joker FIRST rejects her that we get to see how much she has gotten under his skin.

This was not the beginning of her story. Mad Love was written a couple of years after Harley's debut in TAS. She had gained immense popularity and fans wanted to know her back story. The scene between her and Batman was not the beginning of her story. The flashbacks were.

[YT]EtJNYXFHn4k[/YT]

Yeah, clearly, he doesn't care at all that she's moved on without him.

That's right. He doesn't. Showing annoyance that one of his hired help has suddenly shot up to be one of the queens of crime in Gotham right under his nose doesn't mean he cares she has moved on without him. She is stealing his limelight. Joker's hired gal is ranking higher than he is. He hates being upstaged. Look at how he reacted when she made a joke in front of Batman;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kwsV281XT0&t=2m20s

Btw you still have no addressed other mentioned instances like this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkcvRI-J8hw&t=0m15s Why is he willing to leave her to die with the rest of Gotham if she is significant to him?

 

[OutOfBoose]

[YT]EtJNYXFHn4k[/YT]

Yeah, clearly, he doesn't care at all that she's moved on without him.

He doesn't care for her. She's stealing his spotlight and his money. Not to mention, she didn't clean up the mess in his hideout.

 

[Wildcard]

Either way, it was displayed there that to some degree he needed her. Not at all unlike SS. Or any story. I don't give a damn how murderous he is or how psychopathic (even though clinically that doesn't fit) he is, he does care about Harley, even if it's not in the normal way we would rationalize showing affection.

If he didn't he wouldn't have ever kept her around as long as he has. Ergo, his actions in SS make perfect sense.

 

[shauner111]

They don't. And even if they did, they don't show us WHY he would care so much. That's the point really. If you're going to change the character so much and make him love Harley, then show why he loves her. Same with Harley loving Joker. They don't really show you why she loves him. So when Ayer is trying to make the audience feel bad for Harley or laugh with her, care about her in a weird way...we don't feel a thing when she's missing Mistah J.

No matter what it's just poorly done. They spent too much time...WASTING their time with Harley moments that don't matter or Suicide Squad moments that don't matter, instead of building the Joker and Harley relationship, and going deeper into their past. The flashbacks come down to "i love you Joker! why don't you love me!?" and you don't learn a single thing about WHY she feels this way.

And since when does the word "need" equal "love"?

 

[gdw]

Never said him making grand shows of things was out of character. It's the fact that he's REPEATEDLY shown trying to make this same point over and over again. If he didn't care, he'd move on from Harley. He clearly can't, not permanently. That is my point, not the overly theatrical nature of his actions.

Why doesn't he go after her every single time? Already answered that: This is all according to when it suits him. It's about control.

Regarding replacements, again, if it wasn't about her, why not go back to exactly what it was like before her? No, instead, he's specifically seeking another "henchGIRL," AND one who looks exactly like her. He even calls her "Fake Harley." But of course, "she is totally irrelevant here," and this is not at all about Harley. Has nothing to do with here what so ever. Sure.

And why on Earth would you take HIS word about why he doesn't just spring her? Claiming he doesn't care about her, while literally walking along a line of look-a-likes, and settling on the one that is a near mirror for Harley.

They are literally spelling it out for you with a blatant cliched tv trope, and you're still denying it?

As for stuff like this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkcvRI-J8hw&t=0m15s , same as every other single time he's tried to kill her.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that he can't "care" about her, and kill her. If this is still ringing as a contradiction for you, then we've nailed the root of things here. It's only a contradiction if you're projecting your preconceived "norms."

Anyhow, there's obviously a fundamental disagreement, or disconnect, that is not going to change, so, I'm done.

 

[gdw]

They don't. And even if they did, they don't show us WHY he would care so much. That's the point really. If you're going to change the character so much and make him love Harley, then show why he loves her. Same with Harley loving Joker. They don't really show you why she loves him. So when Ayer is trying to make the audience feel bad for Harley or laugh with her, care about her in a weird way...we don't feel a thing when she's missing Mistah J.

No matter what it's just poorly done. They spent too much time...WASTING their time with Harley moments that don't matter or Suicide Squad moments that don't matter, instead of building the Joker and Harley relationship, and going deeper into their past. The flashbacks come down to "i love you Joker! why don't you love me!?" and you don't learn a single thing about WHY she feels this way.

And since when does the word "need" equal "love"?

It doesn't. Who's been saying it does?

 

[Wildcard]

Never said him making grand shows of things was out of character. It's the fact that he's REPEATEDLY shown trying to make this same point over and over again. If he didn't care, he'd move on from Harley. He clearly can't, not permanently. That is my point, not the overly theatrical nature of his actions.

Why doesn't he go after her every single time? Already answered that: This is all according to when it suits him. It's about control.

Regarding replacements, again, if it wasn't about her, why not go back to exactly what it was like before her? No, instead, he's specifically seeking another "henchGIRL," AND one who looks exactly like her. He even calls her "Fake Harley." But of course, "she is totally irrelevant here," and this is not at all about Harley. Has nothing to do with here what so ever. Sure.

And why on Earth would you take HIS word about why he doesn't just spring her? Claiming he doesn't care about her, while literally walking along a line of look-a-likes, and settling on the one that is a near mirror for Harley.

They are literally spelling it out for you with a blatant cliched tv trope, and you're still denying it?

As for stuff like this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkcvRI-J8hw&t=0m15s , same as every other single time he's tried to kill her.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that he can't "care" about her, and kill her. If this is still ringing as a contradiction for you, then we've nailed the root of things here. It's only a contradiction if you're projecting your preconceived "norms."

Anyhow, there's obviously a fundamental disagreement, or disconnect, that is not going to change, so, I'm done.

I agree on all points.

Will always be hilarious how people were clamoring for Joker/Harley in live action & then complain about him breaking her out of prison/taking her from the Squad of all things.

It's just so obvious he's taking back what he sees as his object, even in the theatrical that rang clear. How you can classify it (incorrectly, I might add) as being "lovesick" is beyond me.

 

[OutOfBoose]

I hope one day, maybe in like 20-30 years, I'll see proper respect for Mad Love origin story of Harley Quinn. Yes, I'm an optimist.

 

[The Joker]

Never said him making grand shows of things was out of character. It's the fact that he's REPEATEDLY shown trying to make this same point over and over again. If he didn't care, he'd move on from Harley. He clearly can't, not permanently. That is my point, not the overly theatrical nature of his actions.

Are you kidding? Joker is all about repetition. How many times has he tried to kill Gotham? How many times has he pulled a crime just to get Batman's attention? Repeatedly trying to kill Harley is not a sign that he cares lol. It's the total opposite.

Does he care about Robin, Nightwing, and Batgirl, too, because he's tried to kill them lots of times lol?

Why doesn't he go after her every single time? Already answered that: This is all according to when it suits him. It's about control.

That's a cop out answer. Saying he only acts a certain way when it suits him. You could use such a flimsy excuse for any out of character behavior. You have nothing to substantiate that. Either he feels like he owns her, or he doesn't.

Regarding replacements, again, if it wasn't about her, why not go back to exactly what it was like before her? No, instead, he's specifically seeking another "henchGIRL," AND one who looks exactly like her. He even calls her "Fake Harley." But of course, "she is totally irrelevant here," and this is not at all about Harley. Has nothing to do with here what so ever. Sure.

Because he likes having the hired help of a henchgirl that's why. Doesn't matter who it is in the costume as long as he has one. That's why he hires the first pretty lookalike with the IQ of a slug. If it was about Harley he'd try and hire someone who was exactly like her rather than a superficial imitation that is literally in name only.

And why on Earth would you take HIS word about why he doesn't just spring her? Claiming he doesn't care about her, while literally walking along a line of look-a-likes, and settling on the one that is a near mirror for Harley.

Wait, you think him HIRING another hench girl when he could simply get the original back is a claim that he cares?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

They are literally spelling it out for you with a blatant cliched tv trope, and you're still denying it?

Of course. I can't admit to something that isn't true.

As for stuff like this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkcvRI-J8hw&t=0m15s , same as every other single time he's tried to kill her.

That's the point, it's not like every time he tries to kill her. She is just one of millions in the Gotham population. Just another statistic in the death toll he's going to rack up when he nukes the city.

Yet you claim he cares about her when he is happy to forget about her and leave her to blow up with the rest of the Gotham populace. You see why your argument has no validity.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that he can't "care" about her, and kill her. If this is still ringing as a contradiction for you, then we've nailed the root of things here. It's only a contradiction if you're projecting your preconceived "norms."

No, I'm under the factual impression that he doesn't care about her and that's why he tries to kill her.

Anyhow, there's obviously a fundamental disagreement, or disconnect, that is not going to change, so, I'm done.

Fair enough. Ciao.

They don't. And even if they did, they don't show us WHY he would care so much. That's the point really. If you're going to change the character so much and make him love Harley, then show why he loves her. Same with Harley loving Joker. They don't really show you why she loves him. So when Ayer is trying to make the audience feel bad for Harley or laugh with her, care about her in a weird way...we don't feel a thing when she's missing Mistah J.

No matter what it's just poorly done. They spent too much time...WASTING their time with Harley moments that don't matter or Suicide Squad moments that don't matter, instead of building the Joker and Harley relationship, and going deeper into their past. The flashbacks come down to "i love you Joker! why don't you love me!?" and you don't learn a single thing about WHY she feels this way.

And since when does the word "need" equal "love"?

Exactly. Either interpretation doesn't show through in SS. Not that the need one is a valid one.

He doesn't care for her. She's stealing his spotlight and his money. Not to mention, she didn't clean up the mess in his hideout.

Common sense prevailing

 

[The Joker]

I hope one day, maybe in like 20-30 years, I'll see proper respect for Mad Love origin story of Harley Quinn. Yes, I'm an optimist.

Ditto.

Another aspect of Mad Love they made a total mess of was when Harley was fantasizing about married life with the Joker. She was imagining being normal herself, with normal looking Jared Leto, in a normal house with normal kids. That was bull crap. When Harley fantasizes about married life with the Joker she imagines it as crazy as the love she thinks they have for each other;

Imagining him as normal implies she doesn't love him just the way he is, and would rather have a normal life. Just another important element of the Joker/Harley story they messed up.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Ditto.

Another aspect of Mad Love they made a total mess of was when Harley was fantasizing about married life with the Joker. She was imagining being normal herself, with normal looking Jared Leto, in a normal house with normal kids. That was bull crap. When Harley fantasizes about married life with the Joker she imagines it as crazy as the love she thinks they have for each other;

Imagining him as normal implies she doesn't love him just the way he is, and would rather have a normal life. Just another important element of the Joker/Harley story they messed up.

Absolutely. There's another page from the book, where Harleen talks to another doctor on her first day in the asylum and discusses the contingent. How she's attracted to extreme personalities, how they're exciting and so on. In her heart, she liked bad guys and their glamorous "rock-star" status. She liked them for what they are. And her imagining a normal married life as normal people is total rubbish (especially considering their criminal history together). Of course the page above is made as a comedic insight into Harley's mind, but I think if they wanted to adapt it into live action, they had to do it some other way.

 

[shauner111]

It's funny and disturbing, and that's who they are.

 

[gdw]

Are you kidding? Joker is all about repetition. How many times has he tried to kill Gotham? How many times has he pulled a crime just to get Batman's attention? Repeatedly trying to kill Harley is not a sign that he cares lol. It's the total opposite.

Does he care about Robin, Nightwing, and Batgirl, too, because he's tried to kill them lots of times lol?

No, ALL of that would be indicative of his "caring" about Batman. Again, something made pretty explicit that you want to ignore/twist to hold onto your position.
So, you've actually just provided more behavioural examples that SUPPORT my point.

That's a cop out answer. Saying he only acts a certain way when it suits him. You could use such a flimsy excuse for any out of character behavior. You have nothing to substantiate that. Either he feels like he owns her, or he doesn't.

Right, and every-time he DOESN'T intervene when Batman's dealing with any other villain proves he doesn't "care" about Batman either. You're essentially demanding he being doing the exact same behaviour at all possible moments. He's the Joker, he's also meant to be inconsistent and unpredictable.

Because he likes having the hired help of a henchgirl that's why. Doesn't matter who it is in the costume as long as he has one. That's why he hires the first pretty lookalike with the IQ of a slug. If it was about Harley he'd try and hire someone who was exactly like her rather than a superficial imitation that is literally in name only.

Are you serious? Man, you are desperately stretching to try to hold on here. I guess every time a tv show recycles the EXACT SAME TROPE of someone's rebound looking superficially like their ex has NOTHING to do with their ex either.

I'm not bothering with the rest. It's a bunch of "no, it's not" and un-backed assertions.
I'm done.