The Jared Leto is The Joker(?) Thread

[Timebomb]

There is a big difference between someone coming here to post negative things about the Joker if they could care less about the character and someone who cares about the character and hates this version. We all talk about things we are passionate about.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

They were exceptionally well done, and the guy did an incredible impression of Ledger. The make up was spot on, too.

Only saw the first couple minutes of the first one, I'll have to check out some more, but generally I'm not a fan of the Ledger impressions. They're not bad, but it's just too much of a rip off, like just taking things Joker did in TDK and recycling them, and sometimes badly or too much. Perfect example, Tell Gordon Hello, the guy is okay but he just takes those subtle tics Ledger added and overuses them, just constantly kicking his lips for example. or the guy at the beginning of Jokerblogs, "Hiii" directly from the Harvey Dent scene. They do a good job impersonating Heath, but I just don't see that as being how Heath would have played those scenes. It's obvious they're impersonating and not inhabiting the character, and sometimes it's cringe worthy. Not that I could do any better and I imagine it's really hard to try and recreate such an iconic character and make it unique and fresh, while still getting the audience to feel like they are watching that same character. You need subtlety and to be creative with it.


For example, take a deleted scene of Ledger's Joker, and give the script to the actor, the actor will play it like Heath did the mob scene or the Harvey Dent benefit scene, but Heath would play it as it's own scene, get creative with it, like he did in the hospital explosion scene. The impersonators wouldn't have done that, I don't think. They would channel from the "Hit Me! Hit me!" scene instead.


I'm sure it would be hard as hell to pull off, but that goes to show Ledger's genius with that particular character, he felt real not like a character. And The looks of the guys are pretty damn great, I'm not knocking that, just the acting was an impersonation, which would work if you're recreating the scene, but not in a completely different scene.


But I'm intrigued, I'm gonna watch the JokerBlogs. I love watching fan films, and despite how it sounds, I'm not overly critical. I thought that Dark Knight Returns fan film was awesome for what it was. But I appreciate the fan films more for the creativity, like watching Dennis and Mac's Lethal Weapon 5 on Always Sunny.

 

[DeadStroke]

Haha, Joker you feel the same way about Leto as I do about Tom's Spider-Man. Dude, we're like counter-parts to one another. But yeah, Leto left a lot to be desired.

The irony being that both only had about 8 minutes of screen time.

Most enjoy Holland in CW unlike Leto. His Spiderman was also a throw back to something very familiar while Leto's deviated a lot from what people are use too. (I'll still stand by that there are moments of Hamill) I think there was far less expectation and Marvel/Russo's never led people on like he would have a big role.

I thought they introduced him very well though. Hard for me to say he's better than guys like Toby or Andrew just off a little screen time. Still gotta see if he can carry a movie.

 

[harryoscop]

The irony being that both only had about 8 minutes of screen time.

Most enjoy Holland in CW unlike Leto. His Spiderman was also a throw back to something very familiar while Leto's deviated a lot from what people are use too. (I'll still stand by that there are moments of Hamill) I think there was far less expectation and Marvel/Russo's never led people on like he would have a big role.

I thought they introduced him very well though. Hard for me to say he's better than guys like Toby or Andrew just off a little screen time. Still gotta see if he can carry a movie.

That's true most people did enjoy Holland. But my problems parallel Joker. He was just as much of a reinvention from the source material as Leto's Joker was. I had high expectations too but what we ended up with was something completely different from what Kevin Feige initially described.

And many of the GA liked Leto's Joker. The girls in my High-school loved him. It's the fans (people who care about the character) who had a major problem with his characterization. I hope he can improve for future movies because like Joker, many things I saw him do made me raise an eyebrow. (Joker saving Harley and sacrificing himself??!) I think Leto has potential in him to make something terrifying.

 

[Wildcard]

The irony being that both only had about 8 minutes of screen time.

Most enjoy Holland in CW unlike Leto. His Spiderman was also a throw back to something very familiar while Leto's deviated a lot from what people are use too. (I'll still stand by that there are moments of Hamill) I think there was far less expectation and Marvel/Russo's never led people on like he would have a big role.

I thought they introduced him very well though. Hard for me to say he's better than guys like Toby or Andrew just off a little screen time. Still gotta see if he can carry a movie.

Hell yes. He's especially similar to Hamill's Joker in the Arkham scene (the Extended Cut exacerbates that facet) and when he & Harley are riding through Gotham.

Hell, he even reminds me of him during the helicopter sequence as well. Ironically, he evokes more of TAS Joker (for me, anyway) than Nicholson's take on the character and the latter was the inspiration for their animated counterpart.

 

[JOE]

Haha, Joker you feel the same way about Leto as I do about Tom's Spider-Man. Dude, we're like counter-parts to one another. But yeah, Leto left a lot to be desired.

For sure, exactly the same! #twinning

Oh wait? I didn't see the Joker running these boards calling Leto "the definitive Joker" for the first month after SS came out, then pretend to hate him... Oh harry!

 

[Luke234]

Thank you.



But that's you. Because you don't like discussing things you found bad or flawed is not universal for everyone. Don't judge everyone by your own standards. Sometimes the best discussions are ones based on criticism. By your logic why should people keep repeating the same praises about something when it's all been said before. It's the same broken record syndrome.

In fact if people followed your train of thought these forums would be a ghost town because 95% of what is discussed here has all been said before many, many, MANY times.

Where you get the idea people state their opinions here in the hope that WB or any movie studio reads here in the hope they will listen to us, I have no idea. I may have mentioned this before, but it obviously needs repeating even though it is obvious; this is a DISCUSSION forum. Not a fan forum, not lets try and get the movie studios to listen to us forum. Just discussion. That includes criticisms.

If you want to be surrounded by positive comments then go into one of the positivity threads the fans of the DCEU created because the forum itself is full of people criticizing the movies. Like most normal people do. Which reminds me....



The "safe" zones for those who can't handle criticism. Too hard to just state their own opinion and ignore the ones that they don't like.

It's not that I " can't handle criticism". Lol. I think I stated I wasn't trying to be judgemental. I was trying to understand. I totally respect your right to express whatever you want. I don't know if some people believe the people making movies read message boards. I didn't think so but I honestly wasn't sure. Maybe that was taken the wrong way.
True. I understand people gathering to talk and singing the same old praise more than singing the same old criticisms. It just doesn't seem fun. It seems miserable.
No need to get snarky, dude. I still don't get the usage of time. But it's all good. I hope it helps. There's obviously a ton of frustration for many lovers of these characters. I genuinely think that it blows that everyone can't get what they want.
I expect with changes coming up, I'll be unhappy with future films.
At least then people who grew up reading the comics may have a CHANCE at getting something closer to what they're looking for.
I really think there's light at the end of the tunnel for DC comic fans.

 

[Luke234]

That's true most people did enjoy Holland. But my problems parallel Joker. He was just as much of a reinvention from the source material as Leto's Joker was. I had high expectations too but what we ended up with was something completely different from what Kevin Feige initially described.

And many of the GA liked Leto's Joker. The girls in my High-school loved him. It's the fans (people who care about the character) who had a major problem with his characterization. I hope he can improve for future movies because like Joker, many things I saw him do made me raise an eyebrow. (Joker saving Harley and sacrificing himself??!) I think Leto has potential in him to make something terrifying.

I don't know much about Spider-Man. How was this latest kid different than the character people are familiar with. I didn't see the movie.

 

[The Joker]

It's not that I " can't handle criticism". Lol. I think I stated I wasn't trying to be judgemental. I was trying to understand. I totally respect your right to express whatever you want. I don't know if some people believe the people making movies read message boards. I didn't think so but I honestly wasn't sure. Maybe that was taken the wrong way.
True. I understand people gathering to talk and singing the same old praise more than singing the same old criticisms. It just doesn't seem fun. It seems miserable.
No need to get snarky, dude. I still don't get the usage of time. But it's all good. I hope it helps. There's obviously a ton of frustration for many lovers of these characters. I genuinely think that it blows that everyone can't get what they want.
I expect with changes coming up, I'll be unhappy with future films.
At least then people who grew up reading the comics may have a CHANCE at getting something closer to what they're looking for.
I really think there's light at the end of the tunnel for DC comic fans.

I never said you can't handle criticism. I said if you prefer to be surrounded by positive comments then hop into one of the positivity threads.

Most people find critical discussions fun because they are often insightful, interesting, and show fans beliefs on what makes characters they love great, and what doesn't work, and express their ideas on how characters can be improved and better adapted. They are great discussions, really enjoyable to be a part of, and that's a great usage of time. If people hated discussions like that, but still took part in them anyway, that would be a usage of time that would be questionable.

Furthermore how dreadfully DULL this place would be if everyone just agreed, and was singing praises all day long.

A movie is never going to satisfy everyone. Even the most popular ones have their detractors But I wouldn't have it any other way. They bring some spice and variety to the forums. Seeing different points of view, and differing opinions is part of the appeal to message boards. If I wanted to join in a bunch of like minded people who were all on the same page as me I'd be hanging around a fan forum.

 

[Luke234]

I never said you can't handle criticism. I said if you prefer to be surrounded by positive comments then hop into one of the positivity threads.

Most people find critical discussions fun because they are often insightful, interesting, and show fans beliefs on what makes characters they love great, and what doesn't work, and express their ideas on how characters can be improved and better adapted. They are great discussions, really enjoyable to be a part of, and that's a great usage of time. If people hated discussions like that, but still took part in them anyway, that would be a usage of time that would be questionable.

Furthermore how dreadfully DULL this place would be if everyone just agreed, and was singing praises all day long.

A movie is never going to satisfy everyone. Even the most popular ones have their detractors But I wouldn't have it any other way. They bring some spice and variety to the forums. Seeing different points of view, and differing opinions is part of the appeal to message boards. If I wanted to join in a bunch of like minded people who were all on the same page as me I'd be hanging around a fan forum.

Well put. I get it. I hear ya.

 

[The Guard]

The problem with Leto's Joker wasn't Leto's fault.

It's the way he was written. Ledger's Joker was introduced in a bank robbery where he guns down all his accomplices and escapes in a school bus.

Had Leto's Joker been established as almost supernaturally competent and chaotic the rest of his scenes would have earned the tension Ayer wanted the audience to feel.

I think there's something to this.

Nolan's Joker, for all his nuance, was larger than life in a lot of ways. He was introduced and characterized as something of a force of nature.

Leto's Joker was almost the opposite. He was a much more human thug type with human vices, more criminal than terrorist.

But I think that was supposed to be the point. He's a much more flawed character than Nolan's Joker, who as you pointed out, was almost supernaturally competent and somewhat singleminded, for all the "chaos" around him.

Meanwhile Leto's Joker was kind of the Golden Age version of the character, flying by the seat of his pants a bit, throwing **** at the wall and hoping it stuck until something worked out for him. Much more a blunt instrument than Ledger's Joker, who was a bit more surgical with his plans.

 

[BH/HHH]

Let's not forget that in Suicide Squad, Jared Leto's Joker was a supporting character to Harley Quinn's arc in the film. His character was there in service to hers, it's only when we see him in a full role as a villain that we will get to see his character fleshed out with his true moments. I personally loved what we got in Suicide Squad and cannot wait to see him come face to face with Ben Affleck's Batman at somepoint in the DCEU.

 

[The Joker]

He was a supporting character to Harley Quinn's origin story in Mad Love, too, but he didn't come across as a half baked, pathetic, ineffectual nonentity whom if you removed from the story it wouldn't make any difference to it. Take Joker out of SS, and the story doesn't change in any significant way.

It's about quality, not quantity. Joker can be in a supporting role and still be a very effectual character. Mask of the Phantasm is another great example. He shows up half way through that movie, and only has a handful scenes in it, but he's totally brilliant, and a vital element to the story.

SS failed to do that with him. There was no excuse for Joker to be so unimportant and out of character in it. They only put him in there as a marketing tool. Promote the Joker in your movie and it's instant audience interest.

 

[BH/HHH]

Well I respectfully disagree, I do agree the story wouldn't change as his story was a side story. But comic books have side stories all the time and I usually enjoy that aspect of comic books. Also as I said he was a supporting character to her in the flashbacks so he needed to be there. I loved the imagery and performance of Leto so I'm happy with what we got. The additional Harley chases Joker scene for example is one of my favourite Joker scenes put to film, he seems so fed up with her and I love how he tries to warn the trucker not to get too close. Typical Joker no idea what he's gonna do or say. The end scene where he breaks in to a rescue Harley is awesome too. The film gave me many great Joker moments.

I don't think he was out of character at all either. This was the first time we saw this version of the Joker so how can anyone say what is in and out of characater for him? That's projecting your version on him.

I think he served his purpose well in the film as a supporting characater to Harley's arc in the film.

 

[The Joker]

Well I respectfully disagree, I do agree the story wouldn't change as his story was a side story. But comic books have side stories all the time and I usually enjoy that aspect of comic books.

Comic books don't introduce major iconic villains into a new universe as a pointless side story.

Also as I said he was a supporting character to her in the flashbacks so he needed to be there. I loved the imagery and performance of Leto so I'm happy with what we got.

The flashbacks showed nothing of any significance. It didn't give any detail on how Joker mentally manipulated Harley, it didn't show how she slowly succumbed to him and fell in love. It just told us she was his shrink and fell for him, and showed us brief snippets like him sitting with her in therapy and asking for a machine gun. That's it. That's all we get as to how Harley went from psychiatrist to psychopath. It was rushed, half baked, and didn't feel authentic at all. So when we see the subsequent scenes of her willing to jump into a vat of chemicals for him, it didn't feel genuine or believable because we never saw how the character got to this point and became so infatuated with him that she would be willing to do it. We were just told she had. So Joker could have been left out entirely and they could have just told us the exact same info.

The additional Harley chases Joker scene for example is one of my favourite Joker scenes put to film, he seems so fed up with her and I love how he tries to warn the trucker not to get too close. Typical Joker no idea what he's gonna do or say. The end scene where he breaks in to a rescue Harley is awesome too. The film gave me many great Joker moments.

Joker wasn't the unpredictable one in that scene. Harley was. She shot the trucker. We're talking about a movie that flat out said Harley was more crazy and dangerous than the Joker.

I don't think he was out of character at all either. This was the first time we saw this version of the Joker so how can anyone say what is in and out of characater for him?

What are you talking about? What difference does this being the first time we saw him make? Do you discount Harley's characterization, too, because this was the first time we saw her as well? We saw his characterization in this universe which was a lovesick Joker who was depressed when Harley wasn't around, and moved heaven and earth to find her and be reunited with her. That was his sole motive in this story. What Joker tales have you read where he did that?

That's projecting your version on him.

There's no such thing as my version. I'm quoting the comics. What sources are you using to defend this?

I think he served his purpose well in the film as a supporting characater to Harley's arc in the film.

Harley's arc could have been done without him there.

 

[Wildcard]

Joker wasn't the unpredictable one in that scene. Harley was. She shot the trucker. We're talking about a movie that flat out said Harley was more crazy and dangerous than the Joker.

And then proceeded to show Harley was not crazier or more dangerous than the Joker because she was afraid to take a little dive.

 

[The Joker]

And then proceeded to show Harley was not crazier or more dangerous than the Joker because she was afraid to take a little dive.

You mean when she jumped in before him, and also smiled while she did it? Mmmm yes no sign of fearlessness or craziness there

 

[BH/HHH]

Comic books don't introduce major iconic villains into a new universe as a pointless side story.

They have side stories, always have always will doesn't matter who it is

The flashbacks showed nothing of any significance. It didn't give any detail on how Joker mentally manipulated Harley, it didn't show how she slowly succumbed to him and fell in love. It just told us she was his shrink and fell for him, and showed us brief snippets like him sitting with her in therapy and asking for a machine gun. That's it. That's all we get as to how Harley went from psychiatrist to psychopath. It was rushed, half baked, and didn't feel authentic at all. So when we see the subsequent scenes of her willing to jump into a vat of chemicals for him, it didn't feel genuine or believable because we never saw how the character got to this point and became so infatuated with him that she would be willing to do it. We were just told she had. So Joker could have been left out entirely and they could have just told us the exact same info.

I disagree we saw her love for him, which was the point. Doesn't matter if it's in 2 mins or 15 mins they still showed it.

Joker wasn't the unpredictable one in that scene. Harley was. She shot the trucker. We're talking about a movie that flat out said Harley was more crazy and dangerous than the Joker.

Yes he was, you don't know what the Joker is going to do. In that scene he tried to warn the guy, in another scene he kills that doctor. That's my point, as Paul Dini once said the a Joker can kill you or give you a $1000. The fact he tried to warn the guy was unpredictable for the Joker.

What are you talking about? What difference does this being the first time we saw him make? Do you discount Harley's characterization, too, because this was the first time we saw her as well? We saw his characterization in this universe which was a lovesick Joker who was depressed when Harley wasn't around, and moved heaven and earth to find her and be reunited with her. That was his sole motive in this story. What Joker tales have you read where he did that?

You are saying it's out of character thats what I'm talking about. But this is ther first time we have seen this movie version of the character so how is out it out character? Again you're projecting your preconceived notions on this version.

There's no such thing as my version. I'm quoting the comics. What sources are you using to defend this?

Why do I need sources? In the animation and comics he is in love with her.

Harley's arc could have been done without him there.

I disagree without him it would gave felt incomplete .

Look I really don't want to argue with you but I like it, it's the Joker and in my opinion a good characterisation and performance. I can't wait to see more.

 

[Greens]

The additional Harley chases Joker scene for example is one of my favourite Joker scenes put to film, he seems so fed up with her and I love how he tries to warn the trucker not to get too close. Typical Joker no idea what he's gonna do or say.

Huh? What did Joker do in that scene that was unpredictable? He stepped out of the car, talked to Harley a bit and that's it.

If that's one of your favorite Joker scenes, more power to you. I thought most of the scene was awkward. It didn't feel right at all. I don't know if it was the editing or the way Jared was directed but there was no flow to it. Leto didn't do the scene any favors with his weird, high-on-paint performance.

 

[BH/HHH]

Huh? What did Joker do in that scene that was unpredictable? He stepped out of the car, talked to Harley a bit and that's it.

If that's one of your favorite Joker scenes, more power to you. I thought most of the scene was awkward. It didn't feel right at all. I don't know if it was the editing or the way Jared was directed but there was no flow to it. Leto didn't do the scene any favors with his weird, high-on-paint performance.

He tried to warn the guy, the Joker as Paul Dini said the Joker will either kill you or give you a thousand dollars. The fact he didn't pull the gun out and just shoot the guy shows his reaction wasn't a predictable one.

I loved it, his performance was one if my favourite things. He's not all there, guts a whack job. That's the Joker.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I genuinely like the Batmobile chase scene and the club scene, but that's about it. I like the look of Leto's Joker, but his tics are so over the top

 

[The Joker]

They have side stories, always have always will doesn't matter who it is

Of course it matters if you are introducing one of comic book's greatest villains into a new universe. You don't reduce them to a pointless side story. Can you imagine Magneto being introduced into X-Men as some little side story? Or Luthor in Superman? An A-list character like this deserves to be introduced bigger and larger than life as a significant story element.

I disagree we saw her love for him, which was the point. Doesn't matter if it's in 2 mins or 15 mins they still showed it.

We didn't see how she came to love him. Going back to Mad Love it showcased in great detail how a psychiatrist could get her mind turned and manipulated. How she could go from being a doctor to a kooky crazy head over heels in love clown girl for the Joker.

Saying they showed she loved him didn't make it believable in those flashbacks.

Yes he was, you don't know what the Joker is going to do. In that scene he tried to warn the guy, in another scene he kills that doctor. That's my point, as Paul Dini once said the a Joker can kill you or give you a $1000. The fact he tried to warn the guy was unpredictable for the Joker.

This movie didn't showcase that unpredictable nature. Do you think audiences were aware of that Paul Dini quote when they were sitting there watching this movie lol.

The onus is on the movie to show the Joker is unpredictable and you never know what he's going to do. That trucker scene didn't show any unpredictable nature at all. It showed Harley is more of a loose cannon than he is.

You are saying it's out of character thats what I'm talking about. But this is ther first time we have seen this movie version of the character so how is out it out character? Again you're projecting your preconceived notions on this version.

That's the point. This version is out of character for the Joker. It's a poor adaption. How can you not have preconceived notions when this is an adaption of an iconic character.

When you hear Superman is going to be done in a movie, you have preconceived notions of traits that will be included that make him who he is don't you?

Why do I need sources? In the animation and comics he is in love with her.

Say what? He's in love with her? Show me where he is in love with her. Is it when he pushes her out a window? Is it when he leaves her to rot in Arkham and replaces her with a new cheaper henchgirl? Is it when he kicks her out of his gang and doesn't care a jot to getting her back? Is it when he plans to nuke Gotham with a bomb and leaves Harley to die with the rest of the Gotham populace etc?

Where are these stories you've been reading where Joker loves her? You have obviously never read the core basic Joker/Harley Quinn story that lays out exactly what their relationship is, a big sham;

That is the whole basis of the Joker/Harley relationship. He played her like a fiddle. She is nothing but hired disposable help to him.

I disagree without him it would gave felt incomplete

It already felt incomplete. They skipped over the essential elements of her origin.

Look I really don't want to argue with you but I like it, it's the Joker and in my opinion a good characterisation and performance. I can't wait to see more.

I have no argument with your personal liking of it, mate.

 

[BH/HHH]

Well I stand by what I said and I'm gonna leave it at that. Agree to disagree.

 

[Wildcard]

You mean when she jumped in before him, and also smiled while she did it? Mmmm yes no sign of fearlessness or craziness there

No, I'm talking about him crashing the car and her being afraid 'cause she couldn't swim. That dive, not the chemical one.

The chemical wedding scene is just an example of him manipulating her. Hell, he did it to get rid of her, which is overly apparent by the fact that he initially walked away.

 

[The Joker]

No, I'm talking about him crashing the car and her being afraid 'cause she couldn't swim. That dive, not the chemical one.

Oh you mean the scene where she fakes unconsciousness under water and attacks Batman with a knife?

The chemical wedding scene is just an example of him manipulating her. Hell, he did it to get rid of her, which is overly apparent by the fact that he initially walked away.

He jumped in after her. This was the beginning of lovesick whipped Joker. A proper Joker would have walked away.