The Last of Us The Last Of Us 2

[Havok83]

Im quite a ways into the game now and all I have to say is Abby....ugh, Naughy Dog, WHY?!?!

 

[Sundancer]

I'm trying to figure out why Naughty Dog felt compelled to

Spoiler

make Abby so masculine looking. I kinda read somewhere Naughty Dog is looking to represent the transgender community, but doesn't Ellie represent the LGTBIA? From what I can tell, transgender transitioning doesn't exist in this world because the medical science to transition has been lost. I really wish..though I'm not 100% sure why...Abby was less masculine. Their struggle could then have potentially symbolized the tension between the hetero and "non-hetero" communities. I think it also may have helped getting more people to identify with one or the other--or both, and to be honest, make it seem less of an agenda decision. It can be tricky to promote a lesser group without being preachy

 

[Snow Queen]

I'm trying to figure out why Naught Dog felt compelled to

Spoiler

make Abby so masculine looking. I kinda read somewhere Naughty Dog is looking to represent the transgender community, but doesn't Ellie represent the LGTBIA? From what I can tell, transgender transitioning doesn't exist in this world because the medical science to transition has been lost. I really wish..though I'm not 100% sure why...Abby was less masculine. Their struggle could then have potentially symbolized the tension between the hetero and "non-hetero" communities. I think it also may have helped getting more people to identify with one or the other--or both, and to be honest, make it seem less of an agenda decision. It can be tricky to promote a lesser group without being preachy

Spoiler

Abby is not transgender. Their decision to to make her buff is just presumably because they wanted to make her buff. Lev is the transgender character in the game. "Representing the LGBTQIA community" is something of a complicated matter as it's not really as simple as there being a gay character. There being a gay character isn't the same thing as there being a trans character, the same way there being an Asian character isn't the same as there being a black character, for example. It's representation for a racial minority group in US media, but there is a distinction and not everyone is going to feel represented by that. There's also no reason to have one character represent any community, for that matter.

 

[Sundancer]

Spoiler

Abby is not transgender. Their decision to to make her buff is just presumably because they wanted to make her buff. Lev is the transgender character in the game. "Representing the LGBTQIA community" is something of a complicated matter as it's not really as simple as there being a gay character. There being a gay character isn't the same thing as there being a trans character, the same way there being an Asian character isn't the same as there being a black character, for example. It's representation for a racial minority group in US media, but there is a distinction and not everyone is going to feel represented by that. There's also no reason to have one character represent any community, for that matter.

True, they're not the same, but they are often grouped together when discussing diversity, and people's emotions seem to represent that thinking for good or ill. In my experience, complaints and solutions to diverse movie casting go along with this way of thinking,.

Spoiler

"because they wanted to make her buff" -- I'm doubting it was a whim. You don't make a story like this without attention to detail.. And how is Lev transgender?

 

[Snow Queen]

True, they're not the same, but they are often grouped together when discussing diversity, and people's emotions seem to represent that thinking for good or ill. In my experience, complaints and solutions to diverse movie casting go along with this way of thinking,.

Spoiler

"because they wanted to make her buff" -- I'm doubting it was a whim. You don't make a story like this without attention to detail.. And how is Lev transgender?

Spoiler

Lev just is transgender. It's the basis for why the Seraphites are after him. He's a trans man, they tried to force him to be a wife for their leaders, he shaved his head to be like the other men in the cult and they had to run away or else he'd be killed. His mother tries to kill him because his identity is considered wrong in their cult. They misgender him and use his deadname while attacking and Yara explains it to Abby at the aquarium.

 

[Sundancer]

Spoiler

Lev just is transgender. It's the basis for why the Seraphites are after him. He's a trans man, they tried to force him to be a wife for their leaders, he shaved his head to be like the other men in the cult and they had to run away or else he'd be killed. His mother tries to kill him because his identity is considered wrong in their cult. They misgender him and use his deadname while attacking and Yara explains it to Abby at the aquarium.

Spoiler

All I remember from that convo was ' they tried to force him to be a wife for their leaders.'
I remember thinking it odd, but it didn't occur to me Lev was born a female. I thought just shaving your head in general was frowned upon, and the term 'wife' was redefined by the cult.

EDIT: I just re-watched the scene on YouTube. I see it now.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Abby is just an attempt to broaden female portrayal by adding sort of a butch female character. But damn did they pick a wrong story for that? I mean, the story where you're supposed to hate and be disgusted by everyone?

 

[Sundancer]

Spoiler

Abby is just an attempt to broaden female portrayal by adding sort of a butch female character. But damn did they pick a wrong story for that? I mean, the story where you're supposed to hate and be disgusted by everyone?

Spoiler

I don't think she was meant to be hated by the game's end to show this is not a black and white world.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

I don't think she was meant to be hated by the game's end to show this is not a black and white world.

Spoiler

The story got out of it's way to make players hate Abby and looks like a lot of people didn't get over it even by the end of the game. Obviously, it aimed to be transformative experience. If it failed at that for so many people, not sure it helped representation. Only provoked more bigotry and prejudice.

 

[Bobber]

Spoiler

The story got out of it's way to make players hate Abby and looks like a lot of people didn't get over it even by the end of the game. Obviously, it aimed to be transformative experience. If it failed at that for so many people, not sure it helped representation. Only provoked more bigotry and prejudice.

Spoiler

Bigotry and prejudice against who, though?
Muscular women?

To me, they were clearly going for a Terminator 2 - Sarah Connor vibe.
People thinking that Abby is transgender, and the hatred and vitriol they bring to that, is all on them, not on Naughty Dog or Neil Druckmann.

 

[Brother Jack]

Spoiler

Abby is buff because she's trained herself for four years to get revenge for her father's death. Her self-consuming devotion to finding and killing Joel is manifested in her physicality, where she has this kind of archetypal warrior woman appearance. This is not outright stated in the game, but it's implied by how single-minded she is about her mission, to the point that it ruins her relationship with Owen, and how she changes from the girl we see in the flashbacks with her dad to the hardened fighter she is in the present. It has little to do with representation.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Abby is buff because she's trained herself for four years to get revenge for her father's death. Her self-consuming devotion to finding and killing Joel is manifested in her physicality, where she has this kind of archetypal warrior woman appearance. This is not outright stated in the game, but it's implied by how single-minded she is about her mission, to the point that it ruins her relationship with Owen, and how she changes from the girl we see in the flashbacks with her dad to the hardened fighter she is in the present. It has little to do with representation.

Spoiler

It's obvious they wanted to bring different type of female sexuality into the media. Halley Gross herself said she was willing to join the project because she saw a buff woman on concept arts. Nobody says it's not justified in the setting/story.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Spoiler

Bigotry and prejudice against who, though?
Muscular women?

To me, they were clearly going for a Terminator 2 - Sarah Connor vibe.
People thinking that Abby is transgender, and the hatred and vitriol they bring to that, is all on them, not on Naughty Dog or Neil Druckmann.

Non-feminine looking women, transsexual people. It's not on Druckmann, but it doesn't help the situation either. The way they tried to do it is misguided, imo.

 

[henzINNIT]

The amount of confusion around Abby's gender proves that TLOU2 was right to attempt to tackle trans representation. I say attempt because I have read some criticism from the trans community about whether the game handled it well. It seems like they fell short for some, objections to dead-naming and concerns that the character is too defined by being trans. I think those are good points, but I think the game is progress none-the-less, and I learned quite a bit from the whole thing. I'd call it a success for the most part.

 

[OutOfBoose]

At this point probably any kind of inclusivity is progressive.

 

[Sundancer]

The amount of confusion around Abby's gender proves that TLOU2 was right to attempt to tackle trans representation..

In the real world it is my understanding that some/most trans are willing to talk about their experience, at least it has been that way in my limited interactions. We can't talk to Abby to get to know her. I wish we could. As controversial as it may seem to say, I think people still like labels because it helps them understand their surroundings and the world they are interacting with. Problems occurs when you only see a person as one label or that label is incorrect. I'm defining 'label as 'a noun that describes part of a person.'

 

[Bobber]

In the real world most will explain that they are trans. Abby can't do that. People still like labels because it helps them understand their surroundings and the world they are interacting with. It's what shared language is based upon.

What?

 

[Sundancer]

What?

Yeah, that wasn't clear. I edited it. I'll review it once more later. Considering the sensitive topics, wording is extremely important.

On a different note, I thought it was cool that

Tommy was a 'boss fight' for Abby as the sniper?

 

[Bobber]

Yeah, that wasn't clear. I edited it. I'll review it once more later. Considering the sensitive topics, wording is extremely important.

On a different note, I thought it was cool that

No, it's cool, I wasn't trying to call you out, I just didn't really understand.

I still think I'm a bit confused, because... Abby isn't transgender? Or am I understanding you wrong?

 

[henzINNIT]

In the real world it is my understanding that some/most trans are willing to talk about their experience, at least it has been that way in my limited interactions. We can't talk to Abby to get to know her. I wish we could. As controversial as it may seem to say, I think people still like labels because it helps them understand their surroundings and the world they are interacting with. Problems occurs when you only see a person as one label or that label is incorrect. I'm defining 'label as 'a noun that describes part of a person.'

I don't know what you're getting at here pal. We got to know Abby pretty well in the game. She's a girl, born a girl, remains a girl, then gets buff. We're clear that people are mis-labelling her as trans right?

 

[Sundancer]

I don't know what you're getting at here pal. We got to know Abby pretty well in the game. She's a girl, born a girl, remains a girl, then gets buff. We're clear that people are mis-labelling her as trans right?

I agree, but from what I gather it's still a point of contention for some people.

I still think I'm a bit confused, because... Abby isn't transgender? Or am I understanding you wrong?

My original and current point is that I'd like to know why Naughty Dog chose to make Abby buff as it seems there could be several reasons. I'm just curious from a creative point of view.

 

[Bobber]

My original and current point is that I'd like to know why Naughty Dog chose to make Abby buff as it seems there could be several reasons. I'm just curious from a creative point of view.

I obviously don't know what their intention was, but my guess would be that

A) As has been mentioned in here before, it's a bodytype rarely seen on women in videogames
B) To show how far Abby's pushed herself as a reaction to what's happened in her past. How much she is driven by it, to make herself into a cold, hard killing machine. It's very Sarah Connor in T2.

 

[jmc]

The amount of confusion around Abby's gender proves that TLOU2 was right to attempt to tackle trans representation. I say attempt because I have read some criticism from the trans community about whether the game handled it well. It seems like they fell short for some, objections to dead-naming and concerns that the character is too defined by being trans. I think those are good points, but I think the game is progress none-the-less, and I learned quite a bit from the whole thing. I'd call it a success for the most part.

That’s the problem when you try to fit a subject matter into a game where it doesn’t belong though. That’s what’s noticeable about this game. With the first game nothing about the game, either in story or the design, felt misplace. But here you’ve things like that trans character and Abby being overly buff, neither thing makes a lot of sense in the context of that world. Like I said a few pages back, Abby’s diet and exercise routine would need to be of the highest level to maintain that level of fitness, eating constantly and working out 3 hours a day. It makes no sense. There are bigger issues within that world, like the basic need to survive, that would frankly trump anything else that some characters go through.

 

[Man in the Suit]

Glad he's finally trolling the gamers.

 

[Bobber]

That’s the problem when you try to fit a subject matter into a game where it doesn’t belong though. That’s what’s noticeable about this game. With the first game nothing about the game, either in story or the design, felt misplace. But here you’ve things like that trans character and Abby being overly buff, neither thing makes a lot of sense in the context of that world. Like I said a few pages back, Abby’s diet and exercise routine would need to be of the highest level to maintain that level of fitness, eating constantly and working out 3 hours a day. It makes no sense. There are bigger issues within that world, like the basic need to survive, that would frankly trump anything else that some characters go through.

Spoiler

I guess the realities of keeping that physique is a valid argument, but haven't we seen men that are basically as bulky as Abby in the game? Also she hasn't lived in the random wilderness, she's lived in a military-esque compound that seemed pretty well equipped, for at least the last five years.

And as to whether or not bulky women or transgender characters "fit" into the universe, I simply don't understand that argument. It's still the real world, so I don't see why gender identity would just suddenly go out the window?