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The Last Stand vs Wolverine

I guess you weren't around for the whole X3 script debacle at AintItCool.com. There were scores of people decrying the script and asking to make a 100% faithful transfer of the Phoenix Saga.

Now, I'm not going to say X3 is perfect, because it's far, FAR from it. If there's someone I'm going to hate on, it's the editors for deleting tons of footage from the final print (including more scenes with Rogue, extended fights, the extended Phoenix Rage during the climax and a larger focus on characters like Colossus and Psylocke).

I was around for that script debacle, and dont remember many people outright complaining that the Shi'ar werent includeded, I wouldnt have expected Singer to include them, so I have never complainted about Ratner not using them. Also, about the footage you mentioned, it wouldnt have improved the movie that much, the whole thing was simply an abomination to me.

Scott always was the third man in the love triangle. That's all he ever was. He had one or two interesting moments in the franchise (blasting Toad's spit off Jean Grey, blasting Lady Deathstrike), but almost all the time, he was an arrogant, whining brat. You can lay that at the feet of Singer.

Sorry, but no, he totally and utterly wasnt the third man at all, remember these parts:

Logan coming onto Jean

Jean: "I love him."

Logan "Do you?"

Jean: "Girls flirt with the dangerous guy Logan, they dont take him home, they marry the good guy."

In the damn with Scott:

Jean:"I thought i'd lost you.....I love you so much."

At the end of X2:

Logan:"Hey, hey, she did make a choice, it was you."

Scott sigh's and walks away.

Doesnt sound like the 3rd man to me, Jean CHOSE Scott over Logan, just because Scott isnt there doesnt mean he wasnt her choice. Even when Scott wasnt there and was possibly dead, Jean refused Logan.

I don't think you understand the meaning of the words "downright raped". These characters had been changed long before X3 came along. Now, we're at Wolverine, and we're getting more stupid changes. Throwing in a fifteen-second scene with Deadpool at the end of the credits doesn't count as respecting a character.


Really? Wolviclops, Dark Willow Pheonix, weakling Rogue after her becoming much more confident in X2, Callisquicksilver, Vinny Jones Juggernaut. Thats outright rape to me.
 
Wolverine: "I think she killed Scott."

Xavier: "Look what happened to Scott. You killed the man you loved because you couldn't control it."

Wolverine: "We lost Scott. We lost the Professor..."

tombstone.jpg


I hate the "direction" they took with Cyclops just as much as anyone, but no, he was not forgotten about.

Yeah, not forgotten about? Wolverine THINKS she killed Scott but no one even makes the effort to check, he didnt even get a funeral and no one even showed sadness that he died, Not even Xavier or Storm who knew him for years, ridiculous.
 
This movie was better than its three predecessors.
 
If there's someone I'm going to hate on, it's the editors for deleting tons of footage from the final print (including more scenes with Rogue, extended fights, the extended Phoenix Rage during the climax and a larger focus on characters like Colossus and Psylocke).
the studio and director decide what scene gets deleted. editors work together with the director and they listen to him.
you think they delete the scene and then the movie is realesed?
 
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I enjoyed X3 much much more than Wolverine. X3 felt like a big blockbuster film, the FX were good, I really enjoyed the characters (even the bastardized ones like Juggernaut) and X3 felt more complete. XMO:W felt poorly put together, all of it's scenes were rushed, it felt like a made for TV movie. They could have done straight to DVD with it. I did enjoy Sabretooth and Blob and Wade (with what little time they had), but all around, X3 feels like a better film. If you ignore the changes made to the characters from the comics and just take each film as a film X3 is a better film.
 
Scott was never the third man. Ever.

Wolverine just wanted him to be.

While the movies were decidedly Logan-centric, Scott always had Jean's heart (except when she turned EVIL, people), and he was always the team leader.

Why some fans think Jean had less of a thing for Scott than she did for Wolverine, I will never, ever understand. Well, that's not entirely true. It's as simple as them not paying logical attention and rationally assessing the films.

Yeah, not forgotten about? Wolverine THINKS she killed Scott but no one even makes the effort to check, he didnt even get a funeral and no one even showed sadness that he died, Not even Xavier or Storm who knew him for years, ridiculous.

They're in the middle of a fairly desperate situation. Someone they believed to be dead has come back to life. The events of Scott's disappearance fairly logically takes a backseat.

Yes, not showing a funeral or some mourning is a weakness of the film on some level, but let's face it, other than Xavier, and Phoenix, and Magneto, who knows that Scott is truly dead? It is a forgiveable script issue, really, given the more pressing story needs of the film.

Fact is...they don't really seem to know what's going on with Scott. Only Xavier seems to truly "know", and he keeps it to himself. It's almost played as a surprise of sorts for the audience.

True, we could totally have seen them all screaming at the sky in grief. :).

How could it not be? Aside from the writers and Tim Rothman, who else can the blame be put on?

Well, that depends on which element of the movie you have an issue with.

If your issue is Cyclops' treatment, take it up with Tom Rothman and James Marsden himself. Rothman, who hates Cyclops and essentially mandated smaller roles for him in all three films, and Marsden, who forced the studio's hand in a sense when he decided to follow Singer to SUPERMAN RETURNS.

If your issue is dialogue, take it up with the writers.

If your issue is music, take it up with the composer.

And so on and so forth.

Ratner is the director, yes, but he cannot control every element of the film, especially in this situation. He came into X3 to shoot a script that was already written, because another director, Matthew Vaughn, couldn't handle the pressure, and essentially abandoned the project. Ratner had little to do with developing the story, he handled some smaller casting details, and moved the third act bridge sequence to the third act, instead of the second, where it was part of a cameo-laden sequence that was deemed too expensive.

to me X3 feels really out of place now, it feels cheaper and more staged, forced, short and rushed.

"Cheaper"? Nope. Just not seeing that one.

Staged? In what sense?

It's shorter, it could probably have been longer, yeah.

As far as "rushed", yes, it moves quickly, but most of the scenes are paced similarly to relevant scenes in the other two films.

it was much more of a disappointment too. It had a lot more on its shoulders than a simple wolverine movie. There are just tiny things that needed to change in order to make x3 an outstanding movie... things that didn't even make sense as to why they DIDNT do them.

Like what?
 
Scott was never the third man. Ever.

Wolverine just wanted him to be.

While the movies were decidedly Logan-centric, Scott always had Jean's heart (except when she turned EVIL, people), and he was always the team leader.

Why some fans think Jean had less of a thing for Scott than she did for Wolverine, I will never, ever understand. Well, that's not entirely true. It's as simple as them not paying logical attention and rationally assessing the films.

Totally agreed, people just need to LISTEN to the dialogue in the movies to know Jean wanted and loved Scott, not Logan.



They're in the middle of a fairly desperate situation. Someone they believed to be dead has come back to life. The events of Scott's disappearance fairly logically takes a backseat.

Yes, not showing a funeral or some mourning is a weakness of the film on some level, but let's face it, other than Xavier, and Phoenix, and Magneto, who knows that Scott is truly dead? It is a forgiveable script issue, really, given the more pressing story needs of the film.

Fact is...they don't really seem to know what's going on with Scott. Only Xavier seems to truly "know", and he keeps it to himself. It's almost played as a surprise of sorts for the audience.

True, we could totally have seen them all screaming at the sky in grief. :).

Then why didnt Xavier mourn if he 'knew' what happened Scott was his perfect student and Xavier obviously thought highly of him to give him the leadership of the team, yet he didnt give a **** when Scott died. X3 was just a poor movie on every level for me.
 
They're in the middle of a fairly desperate situation. Someone they believed to be dead has come back to life. The events of Scott's disappearance fairly logically takes a backseat.

It sounds like a copout, but it's true. Xavier simply has greater concerns. A plot unfolds from that point on that requires more than "Xavier sits alone and remembers", though that would certainly have been nice to see. And again...I'm pretty sure they wanted the fact that she actually killed Scott to be something of a surprise, something the audience wonders about due to the tidbits the writers provide until Xavier confronts her in her childhood home.
 
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They're in the middle of a fairly desperate situation. Someone they believed to be dead has come back to life. The events of Scott's disappearance fairly logically takes a backseat.

It sounds like a copout, but it's true. Xavier simply has greater concerns. A plot unfolds from that point on that requires more than "Xavier sits alone and remembers", though that would certainly have been nice to see. And again...I'm pretty sure they wanted the fact that she actually killed Scott to be something of a surprise, something the audience wonders about due to the tidbits the writers provide until Xavier confronts her in her childhood home.

Still not a good excuse im my book, they could have had a joint funeral for Xavier and Scott also, but didnt, it was poor writing from a terrible movie.
 
I say X3 for every reason we have been *****ing about for the past 3 years.

Wolvie only had Barakapool, Gambit fight being somewhat silly at parts, and a few small things.
 
Well, that depends on which element of the movie you have an issue with.

If your issue is Cyclops' treatment, take it up with Tom Rothman and James Marsden himself. Rothman, who hates Cyclops and essentially mandated smaller roles for him in all three films, and Marsden, who forced the studio's hand in a sense when he decided to follow Singer to SUPERMAN RETURNS.

If your issue is dialogue, take it up with the writers.

If your issue is music, take it up with the composer.

And so on and so forth.

Ratner is the director, yes, but he cannot control every element of the film, especially in this situation. He came into X3 to shoot a script that was already written, because another director, Matthew Vaughn, couldn't handle the pressure, and essentially abandoned the project. Ratner had little to do with developing the story, he handled some smaller casting details, and moved the third act bridge sequence to the third act, instead of the second, where it was part of a cameo-laden sequence that was deemed too expensive.
Great points. You're right. I guess I was a little harsh on Ratner, but he was still the director. As the director, you're responsible for everything that goes on during the production of the movie regardless of the situation, am I right?

My main problem was due to the writers and Rothman to be honest. They're the true villains. I hadn't heard of Rothman up until the production of X-Men 3. I couldn't believe what this guy had done before this movie. It just pissed me off when I was watching the movie in the theater. After re-watching it recently, it doesn't piss me off nearly as much. I still think it's the worst of the trilogy though.
 
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Great points. You're right. I guess I was a little harsh on Ratner, but he was still the director. As the director, you're responsible for everything that goes on during the production of the movie regardless of the situation, am I right?

In theory, sure. And for some baffling reason, this is what people seem to believe. But there is no way this is a realistic assessment of the reality of directing a major motion picture. You simply cannot control everything. You don't have the time to do so, for one thing. And in a movie like X3, where he was indeed a "hired gun" of sorts brought on to make an almost completed vision work, you are not allowed to control that much to begin with.

My main problem was due to the writers and Rothman to be honest. They're the true villains. I hadn't heard of Rothman up until the production of X-Men 3. I couldn't believe what this guy had done before this movie. It just pissed me off when I was watching the movie in the theater. After re-watching it recently, it doesn't piss me off nearly as much. I still think it's the worst of the trilogy though.

There's blame to share. Bryan Singer abandoned the project for SUPERMAN RETURNS, and took James Marsden with him. On some level, he is partially to blame for the final version of X3. I blame Rothman and the producers for the approach and what was allowed to be seen on film, because they were pretty vocal about their role in things and what they wanted. I blame whoever wrote certain dialogue for some of the dialogue. The quality of the script is, of course, down to the screenwriters, although I don't think it was that bad.
 
I have just watched X Men:The Last Stand the other day and i must say i think i like it better than Origins.For a couple reasons it looks a hell of a lot better with effects and cgi and i think the acting and action is way better in my opinion.They are a couple of redeeming scenes in The Last Stand and Origins doesn't really have that luxury.The Last Stand had good scenes such as Jeans House scene with Xavier,The Final Battle Scene and even showed some development in characters like iceman and even storm got a bigger role.Yes there are characters underused like Callisto/Quill/Psylocke but they were not central parts of the film like wraith/blob/ and deadpool were.
 
I have just watched X Men:The Last Stand the other day and i must say i think i like it better than Origins.For a couple reasons it looks a hell of a lot better with effects and cgi and i think the acting and action is way better in my opinion.They are a couple of redeeming scenes in The Last Stand and Origins doesn't really have that luxury.The Last Stand had good scenes such as Jeans House scene with Xavier,The Final Battle Scene and even showed some development in characters like iceman and even storm got a bigger role.Yes there are characters underused like Callisto/Quill/Psylocke but they were not central parts of the film like wraith/blob/ and deadpool were.

Wraith, Blob, and Deadpool were not central parts of the film.
 
^I'd say Deadpool was pretty important, but Wraith and Blob werent I agree.
 
Agreed, he was Weapon 11 after all and was essential to Strykers plan at that point. A bit more development was definately needed for Wade.
 
Both sucked. Wolverine sucked slightly less.

The plague >> Wolverine >> Last Stand
 
^Ha ha, I didnt think Wolverine was THAT bad, TLS was though, it just should have been so much better.
 
XOW > Last Stand

hated everything about the last stand, from the killing off of Cyclops, Professor X and the curing of Magneto, Mystique and Rogue. To the horrible casting of Ellen Page for Kitty and giving her a large role in general, never liked Halle's Storm either so her getting a larger role was a negative as well, to the characters that were thrown in for no reason: Beast, A.A., Iceman being Iceman for maybe 5 seconds at best

just a horrible movie all around

only gripes I have with origins are the fact that although it's suppose to be a prequel nothing in it syncs up with the original 3 movies whatsoever (which I look past by viewing it as a stand alone if you will) and the horrible execution of the last 5 minutes of the movie. I don't mind Wolvie getting shot with an Adamantium bullet, but just execute a little better than Wolverine blatantly jumping right infront of the damn bullet, arms wide open and all. Would've been better if Stryker had caught him a little more off guard than that (just all looked way too fake, took me out of the film, thank god it was the last 5 minutes).
 
X-Men Origins: Wolverine. It was better than all three X-Men movies combined.
 
Wolverine, EASILY for me.

At least it didn't try to shove two of the biggest X storylines into one 90 minute film. The acting was far superior (apart from McKellen and Stewart).

The first 40-50 minutes of Wolverine are actually very, very good IMO. It just falls down after that, after the experimentation scene. But with X-3, I thought the whole thing was a jumbled mess.
 
I preferred Wolverine but just because I got sort of used to the movie verse and kept my comic book knowledge in a back room while watch this movie.
 
^I thought Wolverine was more faithful to the comics than X3 was though, obviously both missed a lot out and unnecessarily changed stuff that didnt need to be, but on the whole I felt Wolverine was a lot more faithful than TLS.
 

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