The Libertarian Thread

[Malice]

Paul did it to himself in the debates. Simple as that.

 

[The Senator]

So, the crackpot is suspending his campaign for a second time

Maybe if he does it a third time, people will care.

 

[Omega Wizard]

If you call following the constitution as being a qualification as a crackpot, then Ron Paul is a crackpot!

 

[The Senator]

If you call following the constitution as being a qualification as a crackpot, then Ron Paul is a crackpot!

Paul doesn't follow the Constitution.

He's opposed to the 'birthright clause' in the Fourteenth Amendment, which grants anyone born on U.S. soil birthright citizenship. He wants to deport children born to illegal immigrants in this country. That is highly unconstitutional.

Also, for a libertarian, his opposition to gay rights and abortion rights makes him a bonafide hypocrite, as far as I'm concerned. His calls to eliminate the federal reserve are unfeasible, and his plans to downsize the federal government is a disaster in waiting. So I stand by my statement.

 

[Darthphere]

I truly hope Americans will not regret thier choice on not nominating Dr. Paul.

Trust me, we won't.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

Ron Paul is a Republican who can be trusted. That's what I hear..

 

[Omega Wizard]

Hes the only one I like, actually.

 

[Superman4ever]

Paul doesn't follow the Constitution.

He's opposed to the 'birthright clause' in the Fourteenth Amendment, which grants anyone born on U.S. soil birthright citizenship. He wants to deport children born to illegal immigrants in this country. That is highly unconstitutional.

Also, for a libertarian, his opposition to gay rights and abortion rights makes him a bonafide hypocrite, as far as I'm concerned. His calls to eliminate the federal reserve are unfeasible, and his plans to downsize the federal government is a disaster in waiting. So I stand by my statement.

Well, you've said yourself that you didn't care about the fed. reserve or what it does. However, if you studied the way they worked, then you would, or at least should, care. It's not unfeasible if we really rallied to get rid of the Fed. It's ludicrous that one man, or a group of bankers, control our market. Unless we remove the FR than America will never truly control its own sovereignty.

I... don't care one way or another about the federal reserve.

It's illogical to support a system that creates it's own inflation and in turn it's own debt.

Paul has said numerous times that gay marriage should be a state issue NOT a federal one, and that he didn't care one way or the other. I don't think I've ever read him say that he was against gay rights, but given his position on the constitution and civil liberties, I can't see it.

About the abortion claim the man delivers babies for a living (4000-plus). If you made a living rearing bunnies you'd probably be against killing them too. He described the first abortion procedure he witnessed as a med student. It was a late term abortion, and as he described it, it was before newer techniques on how to kill the baby before extraction and so the baby was delivered ALIVE and was thrown in a bucket and thrown in the back of the examination room where it died slowly and completely inhumanly. If people defend animal right...

And, you once said:

But... but... he's against killing cells which will become babies...

Late term abortions are not just cells. None of it actually are a bunch of cells. That is a cheap political claim. There is NO doubt among the medical community that those cells constitute life...NO DOUBT. Besides the ability to reproduce, which it has the potential to do once mature, those cells at the onset of fertilization participate in ALL the 7 steps that constitute life. So those cells are life. I support a woman's right to chose and I support embryonic stem cell research but lets not distort science here for a cheap political motive.

 

[Superman4ever]

[YT]mO0LIUiW7QM&NR=1[/YT]

 

[The Senator]

\
Late term abortions are not just cells. None of it actually are a bunch of cells. That is a cheap political claim. There is NO doubt among the medical community that those cells constitute life...NO DOUBT. Besides the ability to reproduce, which it has the potential to do once mature, those cells at the onset of fertilization participate in ALL the 7 steps that constitute life. So those cells are life. I support a woman's right to chose and I support embryonic stem cell research but lets not distort science here for a cheap political motive.

Well, yeah, these cells are alive.

So is the bacteria currently forming the plaque around my teeth. But in a few hours, when I go to brush my teeth and kill all that bacteria, will I be destroying life? Will I be committing the same sins as abortion? I mean, if terminating a bundle of cells in the womb is murder, shouldn't the termination of cells in the mouth be considered murder too?

I personally do not believe that human life begins until there is a heartbeat. Otherwise, they are just a bundle of cells which have yet to form a living, breathing human being. Hence why I do not believe abortion should be considered 'murder.'

I am against third-trimester abortions, however, because I believe that the fetus is alive at that stage.

 

[Superman4ever]

Well, yeah, these cells are alive.

So is the bacteria currently forming the plaque around my teeth. But in a few hours, when I go to brush my teeth and kill all that bacteria, will I be destroying life? Will I be committing the same sins as abortion? I mean, if terminating a bundle of cells in the womb is murder, shouldn't the termination of cells in the mouth be considered murder too?

I personally do not believe that human life begins until there is a heartbeat. Otherwise, they are just a bundle of cells which have yet to form a living, breathing human being. Hence why I do not believe abortion should be considered 'murder.'

I am against third-trimester abortions, however, because I believe that the fetus is alive at that stage.

The bacteria comment is an asinine argument.

The heart, in human fetuses, forms by day 22 and the fetus begins pumping it's own blood. So are you for abortion before the 22nd day? A lot of women don't find out until after that point.

Again, I'm not against abortion whole-heartedly, but if you or any politician (I consider you a politician/law maker because of your education) is going to adopt a stance about "what life is" then you better know what you're talking about.

A baby is WAY more than just "alive" by the 3rd trimester.

Given my research background I, and the institution of American medical research in general, was dealt a HUGE blow by this ludicrous administration and it's right-wing propagandists when Bush disallowed stem cells. There are countries around the world, France, Sweden, Israel that are doing remarkable thing with stem cell research and, here in the US, where innovation, science and the human potential are suppose to be limitless are years behind S. Korea. And the reason is because we have people making policy and they have NO idea what they're talking about!

 

[BlackestNight]

Well, yeah, these cells are alive.

So is the bacteria currently forming the plaque around my teeth. But in a few hours, when I go to brush my teeth and kill all that bacteria, will I be destroying life? Will I be committing the same sins as abortion? I mean, if terminating a bundle of cells in the womb is murder, shouldn't the termination of cells in the mouth be considered murder too?

I personally do not believe that human life begins until there is a heartbeat. Otherwise, they are just a bundle of cells which have yet to form a living, breathing human being. Hence why I do not believe abortion should be considered 'murder.'

I am against third-trimester abortions, however, because I believe that the fetus is alive at that stage.

I’m sorry jmanspice but that has to be the most ******ed comparison I have ever seen any one make(and im a Pro-Choice Some what independent/Democrate). I'm sorry but you can’t compare the two. Comparing Germicide to Abortion is like comparing Homosexuality to Bestiality. Also I’m tired of people saying the heartbeat determines life. The Heartbeat has nothing to do with it. In my eyes life doesn’t begin until the fetus develops low-level cognitive abilities like the ability to feel and react to pain. (No brain activity no Life.)

 

[The Senator]

I’m sorry jmanspice but that has to be the most ******ed comparison I have ever seen any one make(and im a Pro-Choice Some what independent/Democrate). I'm sorry but you can’t compare the two.

Why can't you? You're killing living cells. Anti-abortion activists claim that abortion is murder because the fetus in question is alive. Well, the bacteria in my mouth are alive-- shouldn't there be laws against brushing one's teeth to prevent the murder of millions upon millions of cells?

As for Superman4ever's points... I was under the impression that a heartbeat was formed much later in the pregnancy, towards the end of the second trimester. However, I can admit that I know very little about human development. I guess I can change my stance to say that I oppose "partial birth abortions," as there is no question in my mind that the fetus is a fully-functioning human being.

 

[AllThingsComic]

edit

 

[Dark Vigilante]

Why can't you? You're killing living cells. Anti-abortion activists claim that abortion is murder because the fetus in question is alive. Well, the bacteria in my mouth are alive-- shouldn't there be laws against brushing one's teeth to prevent the murder of millions upon millions of cells?

This almost makes me sick.

 

[Humpty Dumpty]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/10/paul.newsletters/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A series of newsletters in the name of GOP presidential hopeful Ron Paul contain several racist remarks -- including one that says order was restored to Los Angeles after the 1992 riots when blacks went "to pick up their welfare checks."

This is a copy of one of the "Ron Paul Political Report" newsletters, which has stirred controversy.




1 of 2

CNN recently obtained the newsletters -- written in the 1990s and one from the late 1980s -- after a report was published about their existence in The New Republic.
None of the newsletters CNN found says who wrote them, but each was published under Paul's name between his stints as a U.S. congressman from Texas.
Paul told CNN's "The Situation Room" Thursday that he didn't write any of the offensive articles and has "no idea" who did.

Watch Paul's full interview with CNN »
"When you bring this question up, you're really saying, 'You're a racist' or 'Are you a racist?' And the answer is, 'No, I'm not a racist,'" he said.
Paul said he had never even read the articles with the racist comments.

See the newsletter excerpts for yourself »
"I do repudiate everything that is written along those lines," he said, adding he wanted to "make sure everybody knew where I stood on this position because it's obviously wrong."
But that's not good enough, says one political veteran.
"These stories may be very old in Ron Paul's life, but they're very new to the American public and they deserve to be totally ventilated," said David Gergen, a CNN senior political analyst. "I must say I don't think there's an excuse in politics to have something go out under your name and say, 'Oh by the way, I didn't write that.'"
Paul, who is not considered a front-runner, has become an Internet phenomenon in the current race, raising tens of millions of dollars from a devoted online base, many of them young people drawn to his libertarian straight talk.

See where the money is coming from »
Don't Miss

• Ron Paul rakes in millions
• CNN Election Center 2008

The controversial newsletters include rants against the Israeli lobby, gays, AIDS victims and Martin Luther King Jr. -- described as a "pro-Communist philanderer." One newsletter, from June 1992, right after the LA riots, says "order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks."
Another says, "The criminals who terrorize our cities -- in riots and on every non-riot day -- are not exclusively young black males, but they largely are. As children, they are trained to hate whites, to believe that white oppression is responsible for all black ills, to 'fight the power,' to steal and loot as much money from the white enemy as possible."
In some excerpts, the reader may be led to believe the words are indeed from Paul, a resident of Lake Jackson, Texas. In the "Ron Paul Political Report" from October 1992, the writer describes carjacking as the "hip-hop thing to do among the urban youth who play unsuspecting whites like pianos."
The author then offers advice from others on how to avoid being carjacked, including "an ex-cop I know," and says, "I frankly don't know what to make of such advice, but even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I've urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense. For the animals are coming."
In his interview with CNN, Paul said that's language he would never use. "People who know me, nobody is going to believe this," he said. "That's just not my language. It's not my life."
He added, "Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Ghandi, they're the heroes [of my life]."
Matt Welch, the editor-in-chief of "Reason" magazine who shares some of Paul's beliefs on big government, says he has never heard the congressman make racist comments like those in the newsletters.
"What I think some people are looking for him to do is to say, 'OK, who wrote that?' I mean, there's 20 years, give or take, worth of newsletters there," Welch said.
Paul said the editor of publications "is responsible for daily activities." But he also cited "transition" and "changes" and said that some people were hired to write stories "but I didn't know their names."
The presidential hopeful described the newsletter revelations as a "rehash" of old material dug up by his opponents because he is gaining ground with black voters due to his stance against the war in Iraq and the war on drugs.




"I am the anti-racist because I am the only candidate -- Republican or Democrat -- who would protect the minority against these vicious drug laws," he said.
"Libertarians are incapable of being a racist, because racism is a collectivist idea."

I don't understand how anyone could admire Ron Paul after this, unless they were a racist themselves.

 

[The Senator]

This almost makes me sick.

I'll tell you what makes me sick:

The heartless, thoughtless murders of trillions of innocent bacteria who are killed on a daily basis when Americans brush their teeth. They are alive, they deserve to live, too!

Now we know why the Brits were a little lax on the dental hygiene. They believed that all living things had a right to life, and they did not want to infringe on the bacteria's God-given rights.

 

[Joker]

I'll tell you what makes me sick:

The heartless, thoughtless murders of trillions of innocent bacteria who are killed on a daily basis when Americans brush their teeth. They are alive, they deserve to live, too!

Now we know why the Brits were a little lax on the dental hygiene. They believed that all living things had a right to life, and they did not want to infringe on the bacteria's God-given rights.

You're saying that plaque cells are on the same level as humans? That's somehow even crazier than the idiot vegetarian "cows are people too!" bulls**t.

Not that I disagree, but I only feel that they're all on the same level as compared to me. I am to people what people are to bacteria, miles above them. So really, when the only person you have agreeing with your poorly thought out argument is a sociopath, you should probably rework the argument.

 

[Comicfilmer]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/ron-paul-hold-majorpress-conference/story.aspx?guid=%7B50C1C571-ABC0-40F5-AF08-A12B319E106B%7D&dist=hppr

Ron Paul to Hold MajorPress Conference Wednesday


Last update: 6:11 p.m. EDT Sept. 8, 2008
ALEXANDRIA, Va., Sep 08, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Congressman Ron Paul will hold a press conference in the Ball Room at the National Press Club on Wednesday, September 10th at 10:00 a.m. Dr. Paul will announce his intentions for the fall presidential election and will be accompanied by several special guests.
This event comes on the heels of Dr. Paul's historic three-day Rally for the Republic in Minneapolis, Minnesota, that drew over 12,000 supporters.

--------------

Is it possible that Ron Paul will announce that he is going to be running as an independent in the election? If that is the case, he'll likely act as a foil for John McCain. For some reason, I'm reminded of the 1992 election.

Thoughts?

 

[Matt]

Paul will never get the support Perot had in 1992. Perot was taking 20-35 % of the vote in certain states and got 18 % of the national vote. Paul will never get that. Paul is the Snakes on a Plane of this election cycle. Sure, plenty of internet hype, but not much else with his 9 % primary showing. Furthermore, Republicans will not be splintered so easily. In 1992 it made sense. Bush went back on his vow of no new taxes and Clinton was a southern, relatable, moderate. Republicans did not fear his presidency. Obama on the other hand, comes off as fairly elitist to middle Americans and is very far to the left...plus he is black, which will play a factor. Republicans will not vote for Paul which is essentially a vote for Obama, especially since Palin has appeased many hard-core conservatives concerned about McCain. Even if Paul runs, he will simply embarrass himself again.

(and this is coming from someone who likes Ron Paul and his ideals).

 

[jaguarr]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...C1C571-ABC0-40F5-AF08-A12B319E106B}&dist=hppr

Ron Paul to Hold MajorPress Conference Wednesday


Last update: 6:11 p.m. EDT Sept. 8, 2008
ALEXANDRIA, Va., Sep 08, 2008 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- Congressman Ron Paul will hold a press conference in the Ball Room at the National Press Club on Wednesday, September 10th at 10:00 a.m. Dr. Paul will announce his intentions for the fall presidential election and will be accompanied by several special guests.
This event comes on the heels of Dr. Paul's historic three-day Rally for the Republic in Minneapolis, Minnesota, that drew over 12,000 supporters.

--------------

Is it possible that Ron Paul will announce that he is going to be running as an independent in the election? If that is the case, he'll likely act as a foil for John McCain. For some reason, I'm reminded of the 1992 election.

Thoughts?

I hope he does announce that he's going to run as an independent. between Paul and Bob Barr, McCain would have TWO Naders.

jag

 

[Darthphere]

Ron Paul: "I'm here to announce, that once again, I will be wasting everyone's time when it is clear that I have no conceivable shot at the Presidency!"

 

[SuBe]

I hope he does announce that he's going to run as an independent. between Paul and Bob Barr, McCain would have TWO Naders.

jag

Isn't Nader going to be the Nader too?

Too many f'n Naders!

 

[Comicfilmer]

Paul will never get the support Perot had in 1992. Perot was taking 20-35 % of the vote in certain states and got 18 % of the national vote. Paul will never get that. Paul is the Snakes on a Plane of this election cycle. Sure, plenty of internet hype, but not much else with his 9 % primary showing. Furthermore, Republicans will not be splintered so easily. In 1992 it made sense. Bush went back on his vow of no new taxes and Clinton was a southern, relatable, moderate. Republicans did not fear his presidency. Obama on the other hand, comes off as fairly elitist to middle Americans and is very far to the left...plus he is black, which will play a factor. Republicans will not vote for Paul which is essentially a vote for Obama, especially since Palin has appeased many hard-core conservatives concerned about McCain. Even if Paul runs, he will simply embarrass himself again.

(and this is coming from someone who likes Ron Paul and his ideals).

While I don't think for a second that Pual could have the support and impact of Perot, I think you underestimate the impact this could possibly have on the election.

 

[jaguarr]

Ron Paul: "I'm here to announce, that once again, I will be wasting everyone's time when it is clear that I have no conceivable shot at the Presidency!"

I miss the days with Perot jumping in and out of the election. SNL was absolutely hilarious in those days. Dana Carvey had me in stitches with his Perot impression.

jag