Iron Man 3 The Mandarin in Iron Man 3...Love it or hate it? - Part 2

But you still monitoring this thread, despite its irrelevance.



As I've said, just because you try to present your subjectivity as a factual thing, it will not become a factual thing. You didn't gave me any legit reasons as to why you think Mandarin is "garbage", so I don't consider your opinion to be valid in this case.

By the way, Mandarin is still one of the best comic book villains ever created.

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Everyone unfamiliar with Mandarin needs to read your posts on the subject, 2002Spidey. They prove how much Marvel Studios failed with the character. While I have a moderate familiarity with Mandarin, you seem to have a greater wealth of knowledge that's illustrated my point (better than I could have) about the insult to Iron Man readers. Based on some of your scans, there are some worthwhile Mandarin stories that I need to track down.

I'm still bewildered as to why Marvel Studios, a name synonymous with action, discarded the prospects of Mandarin's martial arts skill and the plethora of unique abilities that his rings provide for a weak plot twist. The only acceptable way to rectify this is by eventually producing a more comic-accurate version of the character. Otherwise, Mandarin will continue to stand as one of Marvel Studios few mistakes, and perhaps the most glaring one.
 
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Everyone unfamiliar with Mandarin needs to read your posts on the subject, 2002Spidey. They prove how much Marvel Studios failed with the character. While I have a moderate familiarity with Mandarin, you seem to have a greater wealth of knowledge that's illustrated my point (better than I could have) about the insult to Iron Man readers. Based on some of your scans, there are some worthwhile Mandarin stories that I need to track down.

I'm still bewildered as to why Marvel Studios, a name synonymous with action, discarded the prospects of Mandarin's martial arts skill and the plethora of unique abilities that his rings provide for a weak plot twist. The only acceptable way to rectify this is by eventually producing a more comic-accurate version of the character. Otherwise, Mandarin will continue to stand as one of Marvel Studios few mistakes, and perhaps the most glaring one.

I think some comic book fans refuse accept that some characters have become dated and Mandarin is a dated character in the worse way.

There is not much to the character beyond dated asethics and a thin characterization that often just revolves around being evil for evil's sake, he is one of the most prominent Chinese Marvel characters, unlike Ra's Al Ghul who is a villain who has redeeming aspects. That's kinda sad, there is not even a psotive Chinese characters

Even their rivalry seems dated and racist, Tony Stark represents western enlightened technological progress, while Mandarin represents backwards evil Eastern savagery and superstition. Not only is it offensive, its just dated, no one sees China like that anymore.

It seems like Obadiah Stane and Zeke Stane have hurt Stark more personally then Mandarin ever did.

People say he is Iron man's arch nemesis, but what has he done to earn that title? His connection with Iron Mans origin was a retcon, that now seems to be retconned away, unless you point me to a story that connections Mandarin with Iron Man's new Afghanistan based origin.

The character's personality changes all the time, he is a mad scientist one story and then he hates technology in another, so which one is the real Mandarin?

People say Mandarin is a great character, but all he is an dated archetype, everything about him is surface stuff, he is some kung fu mad scientist wizard or whatever, but what's his deeper personality?

Edit: Plus does anyone think Marvel would risk access to the Chinese market to please a few Mandarin fanboys? I think the Mandarin is a no go for the Chinese market.
 
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I think some comic book fans refuse accept that some characters have become dated and Mandarin is a dated character in the worse way.

There is not much to the character beyond dated asethics and a thin characterization that often just revolves around being evil for evil's sake, he is one of the most prominent Chinese Marvel characters, unlike Ra's Al Ghul who is a villain who has redeeming aspects. That's kinda sad, there is not even a psotive Chinese characters

Even their rivalry seems dated and racist, Tony Stark represents western enlightened technological progress, while Mandarin represents backwards evil Eastern savagery and superstition. Not only is it offensive, its just dated, no one sees China like that anymore.

It seems like Obadiah Stane and Zeke Stane have hurt Stark more personally then Mandarin ever did.

People say he is Iron man's arch nemesis, but what has he done to earn that title? His connection with Iron Mans origin was a retcon, that now seems to be retconned away, unless you point me to a story that connections Mandarin with Iron Man's new Afghanistan based origin.

The character's personality changes all the time, he is a mad scientist one story and then he hates technology in another, so which one is the real Mandarin?

People say Mandarin is a great character, but all he is an dated archetype, everything about him is surface stuff, he is some kung fu mad scientist wizard or whatever, but what's his deeper personality?

Edit: Plus does anyone think Marvel would risk access to the Chinese market to please a few Mandarin fanboys? I think the Mandarin is a no go for the Chinese market.

What you've written here still stems from the fact that you don't like Mandarin as a character. That's an invalid argument. I've always thought Doc Ock was a poorly constructed, overrated character, but I never once questioned that he would be connected to Spidey's live action franchise. I could give all of the reasons why I don't care for the character, but it doesn't change his place as Spidey's #2 nemesis, or perhaps #1A. Had he been omitted over the course of 5 Spidey films or altered in such a way as to make him virtually unidentifiable to his fans, I would certainly understand their outrage.

Also, the "risking the Chinese" market argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There are about 1,000 ways to write a character to avoid any culturally problematic overtones. Marvel Studios could have come up with a scenario where Iron Man was aiding the Chinese government when Mandarin became particularly problematic for them, or some scenario that put the focus on a personal issue between the two men. Yet they wussed out, and they've even backhandedly admitted that they screwed up by making "All Hail the King." Yet it's clearly not enough as hardcore Iron Man fans continue to be upset ( you should read several pages back for 2002Spidey's testament for Mandarin's place in the IM books ) and are demanding that an accurate version of the character be produced.
 
What you've written here still stems from the fact that you don't like Mandarin as a character. That's an invalid argument. I've always thought Doc Ock was a poorly constructed, overrated character, but I never once questioned that he would be connected to Spidey's live action franchise. I could give all of the reasons why I don't care for the character, but it doesn't change his place as Spidey's #2 nemesis, or perhaps #1A. Had he been omitted over the course of 5 Spidey films or altered in such a way as to make him virtually unidentifiable to his fans, I would certainly understand their outrage.

Also, the "risking the Chinese" market argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There are about 1,000 ways to write a character to avoid any culturally problematic overtones. Marvel Studios could have come up with a scenario where Iron Man was aiding the Chinese government when Mandarin became particularly problematic for them, or some scenario that put the focus on a personal issue between the two men. Yet they wussed out, and they've even backhandedly admitted that they screwed up by making "All Hail the King." Yet it's clearly not enough as hardcore Iron Man fans continue to be upset ( you should read several pages back for 2002Spidey's testament for Mandarin's place in the IM books ) and are demanding that an accurate version of the character be produced.

Dr. Octopus is not considered a racial caricature though.

I would probably be more likely to defend the Mandarin, if I thought he was a compelling character, but all his defenders do is present him as an archetype, not a character. He is all surface stuff anything else changes writer to writer. What is compelling sbout his personality?

Why is he Iron Man's arch enemy? Back in the Silver Age the government sent Iron Man to spy on hom and then they just became enemies. What if the government sent Cap instead?

Every adaption into other media changed him into a different guy, can you blame ths movie for changing him again, when he always changes in adaptions?
 
Why is he Iron Man's arch enemy? Back in the Silver Age the government sent Iron Man to spy on hom and then they just became enemies. What if the government sent Cap instead?

Good question. And from what I've read of Iron Man's clashes with the Mandarin, I think that the main answer has to do with the two characters' affinity for technology and scientific discovery. Both of them see technology as a means of change. Where they differ is the kind of change they envision. Whereas Iron Man sees technological change as a means to help people live better lives and to help promote individual liberty and freedom, the Mandarin sees technological change as a means to conquer the world and subjugate everyone he considers his inferiors (i.e., everyone).

So you make a good point when you wonder why these two characters make good adversaries for each other. I tend to believe that it comes down to the fact that one seeks to use technology for good and the other uses it for evil and for his own self-glorification. And while there are plenty of villains who use technology for evil, the Mandarin's brand of evil involves him wanting to return the world to a form of feudalistic serfdom, with himself standing above all the lowly peasants. This egomaniacal vision obviously clashes with Iron Man's vision of technology promoting human freedom and political liberty. I think this sort of summarizes why the two of them tend be good enemies for each other.
 
The Ben Kingssley reveal is about as bad as Peter Parker dancing. Not funny. horrid and ridiculous.
 
I think some comic book fans refuse accept that some characters have become dated

So why is Captain America (a man whose origin is inseparably tied-in with World War 2 era), Magneto (who is still alive in comics, despite the fact that he is almost hundred years old, and he doesn't even look like an old man), and Luke Cage villains (an orthodox stereotypes from 70's blacksplotation era) are still accepted?

and Mandarin is a

Amazing character with deep personification and complex outlook.

There is not much to the character beyond

His interesting ideals, his sophistication, his ambitions, his grand personality, unorthodox aesthetic, abstruse view on the world, etc.

thin characterization that often just revolves around being evil for evil's sake

I thought that the reason why Mandarin is evil is because after he was oppressed by high authority and was deprived from his legacy and birthright, he decided that from now on no authority with prevail above him, since he's an individual anarchist who believes in rational and spiritual superiority.

he is one of the most prominent Chinese Marvel characters

Because he's an arch-villain of one of Marvel's most prominent heroes?

unlike Ra's Al Ghul who is a villain who has redeeming aspects.

You mean like him being a sexist who doesn't believe that his daughter is worthy of his mantle? You mean like him raising his daughter as an evil maniac that's pure evil? Which kinda reminds a lot of Fu Manchu and his daughter, while the Mandarin also has a child, Temujin, and he was actually a man with a good heart who was not evil for the sake of evil, and who never wanted to follow his father's footsteps.

That's kinda sad, there is not even a psotive Chinese characters

So you never heard of Shang Chi and Jimmy Woo?

Even their rivalry seems dated and racist

Only if you find a clever parallel between the ideas of the conflict between industrial complex vs individual anarchism/anti-collectivism to be something racist.

Tony Stark represents western enlightened technological progress, while Mandarin represents backwards evil Eastern savagery and superstition.

Pal, do you even read comics, or you just spread nonsensical lies on the Internet just for the sake of it? Wasn't the Mandarin in his very first appearance portrayed having a technological advantage that was beyond Tony Stark's knowledge? Wasn't Tony Stark distracted when he first fought Mandarin, since he saw that Mandarin uses technology just like him, but they are more superior to his? Wasn't Mandarin a brilliant scientist, just like Tony Stark? Pal, read comics...

Not only it's offensive, its just dated, no one sees China like that anymore.

Not only it's not true, but... What China has to do with it? I think it was very clearly stated in the comics that Mandarin and Chinese governmental mentality are separated from each other. Mandarin was as much of an enemy of America as he was of China.

It seems like Obadiah Stane and Zeke Stane have hurt Stark more personally then Mandarin ever did.

Did both Stanes figuratively created Iron Man when they organized his captivity in the middle of war zone? I'm talking about comics, not movies, since first Iron Man ripped off that idea and made Stane the one who created Stark (in both senses, since he was also his mentor at the beginning).

People say he is Iron man's arch nemesis

Because he is.

but what has he done to earn that title?

He cleverly represents a form of antagonism that Iron Man cannot comprehend, understand, or oppress. He sees in Mandarin some of his own qualities, but in a distorted, morally bastardized way. They both are men of reason, rationality, ideals, beliefs, ambition, yet, they both are so different but inseparable from each other.

His connection with Iron Mans origin was a retcon,

So was the Killing Joke, was the Birthright, so was DC Rebirth.

that now seems to be retconned away, unless you point me to a story that connections Mandarin with Iron Man's new Afghanistan based origin.

DC recently retconned the Joker, making him three different person instead of a single individual. So?

The character's personality changes all the time

Wrong.

he is a mad scientist one story and then he hates technology in another, so which one is the real Mandarin?

Yeah, a villain that contradicts himself because he was written by different writers? Yeah, it's almost like in the case with Magneto, who in the original X-Men comics was presented as unsympathetic dictator who wanted to enslave Yugoslavia with the help of Nazi esque soldiers and was acting exactly like a Hitler, but then came Claremont and retconed his origin, making him a victim of Holocaust, and now we all feel sympathy for him. So f*** Magneto?

People say Mandarin is a great character

And people are right.

but all he is an

Interesting villain with great characterization.

everything about him is

Clever and emblematic.

he is some kung fu mad scientist wizard or whatever, but what's his deeper personality?

He's an individual anarchist who personifies in some way a morally bastardized version of Tony Stark, and in some way, he represents ideas of individual anarchism and anti-collectivism.

The idea of a man who his whole life has been oppressed by the authorities, but after he gain the power to challenge those authorities, he said, "No authority will prevail above me!" And Mandarin kept authorities and governments in fear for years, and they never dared to challenge him. But after he faced Iron Man, who represents no one's authority, he met his mental and physical match. Their conflict unobtrusively extrapolates the entire idea of rational individuality. Their conflict reflects the idea that individuals are always stronger than masses.

Edit: Plus does anyone think Marvel would risk access to the Chinese market to please a few Mandarin fanboys? I think the Mandarin is a no go for the Chinese market.

Well, I could care less about what Marvel thinks, since I've never been a fan of MCU, despite the fact that I've been reading Marvel comics my whole life. And I know that Marvel are sycophants of Chinese censorship, but Chinese censorship is a joke in itself, so I don't care, since it is double standard. Also, The Dark Knight wasn't released in China due to the subplot in the movie that involves corrupt Chinese businessman. Nevertheless, it didn't stop The Dark Knight from becoming the first superhero movie to break one billion mark. If this was Marvel, I bet that they would cut out that subplot completely from the movie, just to please Chinese censorship. There is the difference between Nolan and Marvel. Nolan - all about creativity. Marvel - all about money. Another reason why Dunkirk is my most anticipated movie of the 2017 while I could care less for... I don't even know which Marvel movies will came out next year. That's how much I'm indifferent towards MCU.
 
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Dr. Octopus is not considered a racial caricature though.

Neither is Mandarin. At least among the people who know the difference between a caricature and an accumulative personage that represents certain cultural elements. Also, I always wanted to tell this question to Iron Man 3 apologists that always slam Mandarin and call him racist caricature.

Are you excited for the unpocming Luke Cage TV-show? You do know that Luke Cage comics are the most definitive source when it comes to racial generalization and stereotyping. You do know that the foundation of Luke Cage comics were orthodox racial stereotypes that were created during the rise of blacksplotation era. I mean, the guy was a crook, he went to prison, he became hero for hire, and one of his greatest enemies is a fat black woman whose name is Black Mariah. He was a pretty stereotypical character if you look at him from today’s standards. His villains though… That’s the real subject for a debate about racism. The black guy with reptilian eyes and crocodile’s teeth, whose name is Cottonmouth, and who dresses up like he just came from a Snoop Dog video. Fat black woman with high-pitched voice called Black Mariah. A black guy who loves killing his enemies with a knife. Where is your rant about that, hypocrite?

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Where is your rant on early comics with Batman in which he was portrayed as a pedophile and a creep that sleeps in a same bed with a teenage boy?

I would probably be more likely to defend the Mandarin, if

If you weren't salty apologist who always attacks people because they like character that you hate?

but all his defenders do is present him as an archetype, not a character.

Name me one thing in my comments that present him as an archetype, liar. I think my description of his personage was very compelling and interesting.

He is all surface stuff anything else changes writer to writer. What is compelling sbout his personality?

I don't like to repeat my previous comments, but since you constantly repeat your own points, here's my answer: "He's an individual anarchist who personifies in some way a morally bastardized version of Tony Stark, and in some way he represents ideas of individual anarchism and anti-collectivism."

Why is he Iron Man's arch enemy? Back in the Silver Age the government sent Iron Man to spy on hom and then they just became enemies.

And why were Joker and Batman enemies back in the day, before The Killing Joke and Dennis O'Neil run? From what I can remember, Joker and Batman were just a two crazy guys that had problems with their *****...

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What if the government sent Cap instead?

That's like saying what if Lex Luthor was arch-enemy of Batman, since they both have a lot in common.

Every adaption into other media changed him into a different guy,

That's probably why he never worked properly anywhere outside the comics. Maybe because of that people will finally realize that maybe Mandarin should be done according to comics, instead of being something else.

can you blame ths movie for changing him again

I blame creatively impotent filmmakers for the fact that they made a mediocre film that insults everything that is great about Iron Man.

when he always changes in adaptions?

Yeah, and did Mandarin fans like any of those changes that happened? I personally didn't. Because they can't get him right in adaptations, because they always try to change him, is a proof that Mandarin should be made according to his comic book counterpart.
 
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Neither is Mandarin. At least among the people who know the difference between a caricature and an accumulative personage that represents certain cultural elements. Also, I always wanted to tell this question to Iron Man 3 apologists that always slam Mandarin and call him racist caricature.

Are you excited for the unpocming Luke Cage TV-show? You do know that Luke Cage comics are the most definitive source when it comes to racial generalization and stereotyping. You do know that the foundation of Luke Cage comics were orthodox racial stereotypes that were created during the rise of blacksplotation era. I mean, the guy was a crook, he went to prison, he became hero for hire, and one of his greatest enemies is a fat black woman whose name is Black Mariah. He was a pretty stereotypical character if you look at him from today’s standards. His villains though… That’s the real subject for a debate about racism. The black guy with reptilian eyes and crocodile’s teeth, whose name is Cottonmouth, and who dresses up like he just came from a Snoop Dog video. Fat black woman with high-pitched voice called Black Mariah. A black guy who loves killing his enemies with a knife. Where is your rant about that, hypocrite?

Yeah and have you seen how they have changed those villains for the TV show, Netflix Mariah and Cottonmouth don't look like that at all. All this proves is Mandarin would need a massive revamp to work on screen, if these are the examples you are going to use.

Also the Luke Cage comics would have some positive African American examples in them, does the Iron Man comic have a reoccurring positive Chinese character?

Do you really think a "true to the comics" Mandarin as the villain, would have been accepted by Chinese censors? Marvel is not going to cut itself off from a major movie market to please some fanboys.

I think when fanboys demand nothing be changed from the comics when adapting something to the big screen, they don't understand that a lot of elements from the comics have become dated, some horribly dated and need to be changed. That is what they are doing with the Luke Cage show and guess what if Mandarin ever appears n films, he will likely have to changed to fit more modern times as well. mandarin ahs not aged well, he seems like an outdated stereotype at this point, he doesn't even reflect anything about the modern Chinese/American relationlation, he just seems like a villain from a Sax Rohmer novel.

Where is your rant on early comics with Batman in which he was portrayed as a pedophile and a creep that sleeps in a same bed with a teenage boy?

Who says I don't dislike that, but that is not the topic of this thread, is it?


If you weren't salty apologist who always attacks people because they like character that you hate?

I think its best to debate the arguments, rather then insult other posters, I think that is against the rules.


Name me one thing in my comments that present him as an archetype, liar. I think my description of his personage was very compelling and interesting.

Maybe you shouldn't resort to name calling. Also I personally did not find your descriptions of the Mandarin compelling.

I don't like to repeat my previous comments, but since you constantly repeat your own points, here's my answer: "He's an individual anarchist who personifies in some way a morally bastardized version of Tony Stark, and in some way he represents ideas of individual anarchism and anti-collectivism."


But I think that is an an archetype, because it lacks greater depth. Also he is not always written that way.

It seems like there are character traits that just appear and disappear, some stories seem to mention a sense of honor he has. Okay, so this honor a code of ethics he lives by or is a twisted sense of honor that makes him seem more horrific rather then noble? Because the writers do not do a good job with explaining Mandarin's code of honor in a meaningful and consistent way.

In one story, he regrets not spending more time with his son, but the next writer did nothing with that, why not develop his relationship with son?

I at least understand Red Skull's relationship with his daugther, its abusive and makes the Skull into an even bigger bastard, so why not develop Mandarin's relationship with son and use it tell me something new about character?

Kingpin's relationship with his son and wife are developed, Norman Osborn interacted with his son on a regular basis, these told us something about these characters. Mandarin has a son and barely interacts with him, that is a huge waste because it would explore the character outside of the usual cliched villainy that seems to inform everything he does.

You said Mandarin was Iron Man's arch nemesis because Byrne shoe horned him into Iron Man's origin, so does the fact that Ellis took him out of Iron Man's new origin means no longer has that title? That's the problem with trying to use retcons to make a villain into a arch enemy, someone else can retcon those retcons away. Without that, Mandarin has very little claim to that title, Obadiah and Zeke Stane did more to hurt Tony personally then Mandarin did.

And why were Joker and Batman enemies back in the day, before The Killing Joke and Dennis O'Neil run? From what I can remember, Joker and Batman were just a two crazy guys that had problems with their *****...


That's like saying what if Lex Luthor was arch-enemy of Batman, since they both have a lot in common.

Except Joker and Lex do have better stories then the Mandarin that establish why they are good arch enemies for their chosen heroes. Sure Joker is not great if you take away the O'Neil or Moore stories, but those stories are why he is a great character and Mandarin doesn't have the some depth of classic stories as the other villains you mentioned.

Purple Man was a nothing character till Alias and became one of the best MCU villains in Jessica Jones. So yes, bad characters can become better later on, but good writers need to revamp them and other writers need to build on it.

The run that revamped Iron Man back in the late 70s and early 80s, barely featured the Mandarin.

When you think of the best Iron Man stories: Extremsis, Demon in a Bottle, the first Armor Wars, etc, almost none of them involve the Mandarin and a lot of stories write Mandarin as the most generic baddie around. He's supposed to be Iron Man's arch enemy, but hardly seemed be involved with his best stories.

I think there has only been one truly great Mandarin story, but he borrowed a lot from Ra's Al Ghul and the next writer ignored it.

That's probably why he never worked properly anywhere outside the comics. Maybe because of that people will finally realize that maybe Mandarin should be done according to comics, instead of being something else.



I blame creatively impotent filmmakers for the fact that they made a mediocre film that insults everything that is great about Iron Man.



Yeah, and did Mandarin fans like any of those changes that happened? I personally didn't. Because they can't get him right in adaptations, because they always try to change him, is a proof that Mandarin should be made according to his comic book counterpart.

I think Mandarin being a racial stereotype and an archetype is why he is always changed for adaptions, when you are aiming something at a wider audience, there are boarder concerns, then you are aiming something at a niche audience.
 
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Yeah and have you seen how they have changed those villains for the TV show, Netflix Mariah and Cottonmouth don't look like that at all
.

But they are still played by an African-American actors, right? They are still criminals, right? Black Mariah is still a black woman?

All this proves is Mandarin would need a massive revamp to work on screen, if these are the examples you are going to use.

Revamp such as? I thought John Byrne and Joe Cassey showed that Mandarin doesn't need any "revamps" in order to be considered a threatening and interesting villain.

Also the Luke Cage comics would have some positive African American examples in them, does the Iron Man comic have a reoccurring positive Chinese character?

You asking me because you lack the knowledge to answer that? I thought you knew Iron Man comics well, but I guess I was wrong. Who would've thought that man with such ignorant attitude towards comics would have limited knowledge about the comics?

But, to answer your question, here a few positive Chinese characters from Iron Man books that I remember:

Soo Lin Chu.

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Dr. Su Yin.

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Temujin (who is actually supposed to be evil).

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Sons of Yinsen.

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And, of course, you probably forgot, but Ho Yinsen was the first positive Asian character in Iron Man comics.

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Do you really think a "true to the comics" Mandarin as the villain, would have been accepted by Chinese censors?

Didn't I say that I don't care about Chinese censorship, since its criteria of censorship is more idiotic than the MPAA rating system? Chinese censorship wouldn't allow anything that has even slightly negative image of their country. They didn't allow The Dark Knight to play because of the character of Lao, who was not stereotypical at all.

Marvel is not going to cut itself off from a major movie market to please some fanboys.

To paraphrase your arrogant remark, "Marvel is not going to sacrifice some extra money on Chinese movie market for the creativity and loyalty to the source material."

I think when fanboys demand nothing be changed from the comics when adapting something to the big screen, they don't understand that a lot of elements from the comics have become dated, some horribly dated and need to be changed.

First of all, aren't you a fanboy yourself? Don't you think that it's hypocritical to call other fans "demanding fanboys" because they have favoritism towards particular characters, yet I highly doubt that you any different when it comes to some of your favorite characters? Next of all, I don't know what is your perception of the fans of the comics, but fans of the comics are people with rational thinking, and they clearly can see if some comic book concepts are outdated, and they acknowledge that. That's why you don't see fans complaining about the fact that Iron Man was not a period piece set in cold war, or why they don't complain about Hydra not being an old-school Nazi cult. But what you also seem to ignore, there's nothing outdated about Mandarin. I said it to you. I gave you every substantive argument to prove that. But you listening to me with close ears while continue beating your dead horse.

That is what they are doing with the Luke Cage show and guess what if Mandarin ever appears n films, he will likely have to changed to fit more modern times as well.

It seems as if for you it always comes down to movies, but I wasn't even talking about the Mandarin in the context of him being in a movie. I was defending the character himself. I don't care if he's going to be in the next movie or not. Well, I will not care as long as Marvel will want to make it the same way they made the previous two, which is, to make it a cringeworthy comedy for ten year olds. Maybe the only thing that matters for you is movies, but I grew up as a comic book fan. Movies will always be second to me. When I think of Iron Man, I don't think of Robert Downey Jr. When I think of Batman, I don't think of Christian Bale or Affleck (though, Bale was better). I defend the character from the comics. And Mandarin in the comics works gratefully. And I have no doubts that he would work in movies just as well as he works in the comics.

mandarin ahs not aged well, he seems like an outdated stereotype at this point, he doesn't even reflect anything about the modern Chinese/American relationlation, he just seems like a villain from a Sax Rohmer novel.

And yet again you continue beating your dead horse, despite all those argumentative points that I made to prove you wrong. Pal, can you understand at least something out of my comments? You said it thousands times already, and I proved every point by you to be wrong. I said it clearly: Mandarin does not reflect anything about Chinese and Americans relationships. Mandarin put himself on a pedestal in which he sees everyone to be below him, including Chinese. In fact, Chinese would be the first who would suffer in case Mandarin succeeds with his plan of complete subjugation. Also, the Chinese themselves collaborated with Iron Man to take down the Mandarin. In John Byrne's run, the Chinese were on the side of Iron Man, not on the side of the Mandarin.

I think its best to debate the arguments, rather then insult other posters, I think that is against the rules.

If you consider the word "apologist" to be something offensive, then I can also say that the determinations which you're using against us, Iron Man fans, such as "demanding fanboys that like racist characters", are also offensive.

Maybe you shouldn't resort to name calling. Also I personally did not find your descriptions of the Mandarin compelling.

Yeah, the person that constantly makes critical remarks towards anyone who defends the Mandarin, the person that implies that you are wrong for liking this character, is criticizing me for name calling. As for the second sentence, sorry, I can't help you with this. If I can't verbally prove something to you, then I don't know what will. I don't have problems if you don't find him not compelling. I find problems when you are stating that Mandarin is not compelling in general, thus pretending that your opinion is a fact.

But I think that is an an archetype, because it lacks greater depth.

And which depth you're talking about exactly? Are you saying that he's not as sympathetic and relatable as Magneto or Mr. Freeze? The problem is, Mandarin has never been intended to be a sympathetic villain. That's not because he is Asian. It's because he is power-hungry megalomaniac.

In case you don't know, but villain can have depth without being overly sympathetic. Mandarin's depth lies in his conception. But since you can't understand his conception beyond your one-dimensional perception of him, I can't help you.

Also he is not always written that way.

Yeah, same as The Joker is not always portrayed as a crazy guy with no restrictions. Sometimes he's portrayed as a calculative, methodical crime lord, and sometimes he can even be sympathetic, and sometimes he's a social terrorists who makes philosophical speeches about moral ambivalence. The conceptual inconsistencies are part of the comic book medium.

It seems like there are character traits that just appear and disappear

Tell me, have Mandarin ever stopped being Chinese? Have Mandarin ever stopped being evil? Have Mandarin ever stopped wearing his rings? Have Mandarin ever stopped being Iron Man's arch enemy? Those are his most definitive traits. Have those traits ever vanished? If the answer is no (and the answer is no), then Mandarin have never changed as a character fundamentally.

some stories seem to mention a sense of honor he has. Okay, so this honor a code of ethics he lives by or is a twisted sense of honor that makes him seem more horrific rather then noble? Because the writers do not do a good job with explaining Mandarin's code of honor in a meaningful and consistent way.

So, basically what you're saying, because the Mandarin talks about the code of honor but never really follows its rules, his character is inconsistent? Japaneses Imperial Army have always been known for following those old, orthodox views on life that also have code of honor. But I think we all remember when Imperial Japanese Army attacked China and tried to subjugate the China under the Japanese Empire. I guess we all remember the Nanking massacre, also knows as "Rape of Nanking".

In which Japaneses army killed and raped thousands and thousands of Chinese, including children. So these horrible events beg the question: how can Japaneses soldiers talk about some code of honor when they did things like this?

So Mandarin's code of honor isn't an inconsistency. It's more of an illustration of the double standard human morality. But even so, in Haunted storyline, Mandarin points out when he narrates, that he was blinded all those years by hatred and didn't saw how hi desire of power have corrupted his ideals. So there is at least acknowledgement of those inconsistencies.

In one story, he regrets not spending more time with his son, but the next writer did nothing with that, why not develop his relationship with son?

Well, I can at least give you credit for pointing this out, since I always thought that it would've been a nice change of pace to develop a deep relationships between Mandarin and his son. It would help to explore the psychology of the character more profoundly. And I really don't know why none of the writers explored that idea. And there was a great preamble for that exploration, since before the reboot of Iron Man comics that happened after Warren Elli's Extremis, the last Iron Man run developed Temujin as a replacement for the Mandarin. But he was at first resistant to fulfill his father's destiny. But the last issues of the "Singularity" storyline showcase that he finally accepted his destiny, and it also implies that Temujin was responsible for the death of Stark's greatest love interest, Rumiko Fujikawa. Which I thought was a great set up for their conflict. Maybe Mandarin would come back from the dead at some point, without any authority or power, and he would try to restore his relationship with his son, but his son would resist. He would say something like, "I followed your footsteps, fulfilled your bloodthirsty destiny, but it doesn't mean that I will treat you like a family, because I would rather die than have family like you..."

I at least understand Red Skull's relationship with his daugther, its abusive and makes the Skull into an even bigger bastard, so why not develop Mandarin's relationship with son and use it tell me something new about character?

Again, these critical remarks have to go to the writers that ignore such interesting concepts when it comes to writing, not the characters themselves. The Mandarin and Temujin have been portrayed on a same page together only in a single storyline. And even then their relationship was just a backdrop. Again, I agree on that aspect, but this has nothing to do with the characters. It comes down to writing. I wish if someone would replace Brian Michael Bendis and would completely rewrite his awful Iron Man run, and the first thing which that writer would do is to bring back the Mandarin and his son and develop their relationships.

Mandarin has a son and barely interacts with him, that is a huge waste because it would explore the character outside of the usual cliched villainy that seems to inform everything he does.

For the third time I will repeat: address your concerns to writers, not to the characters. It's writer's job to explore interesting character dynamics between the characters. Characters will not do that by themselves. Again, I agree with that. Write the petition to Marvel's editorial office, and demand from them to bring back Temujin and Mandarin and explore the father/son dynamic between them. I actually have sent them a message, but they never published it in any of the comics.

You said Mandarin was Iron Man's arch nemesis because Byrne shoe horned him into Iron Man's origin

First of all, dear liar, I never said that Mandarin was his enemy just because of that element. And I never described John Byrne's re-contextualization of their origin as "shoehorning". I said that it was a clever and very emblematic idea. But you hate Iron Man and his stories, so I can't convince you to like it. It's like as if you are vegan, but you keep trying to eat the meat, which you can't stand, but you always tell people how that meat is terrible. You know that you hate Mandarin, so stop telling to everyone how much you despise him, Jesus... Nobody shoves down your throat the Mandarin. Nobody forces you to like him. There's only handful of people that would actually put Mandarin as their top villain. But you need to stop shoving down everyone's throats your biased opinion, which you're trying to portray as a fact.

so does the fact that Ellis took him out of Iron Man's new origin means no longer has that title? That's the problem with trying to use retcons to make a villain into a arch enemy, someone else can retcon those retcons away. Without that, Mandarin has very little claim to that title, Obadiah and Zeke Stane did more to hurt Tony personally then Mandarin did.

Actually, that origin is still canon. In Story of My Life, which was supposed to be an "edgy" and "dark" take on Mandarin's origin, but ultimately became just a lame satire, the origin in which Mandarin was behind Stark's captivity remained the same. He was founding the terrorist group that kidnapped him, and he was there when Stark escaped. Though, I like the idea of John Byrne way more, since there it was more emblematic and deep.

Except Joker and Lex do have better stories then the Mandarin

Depends on your taste. Also, Joker and Lex have been around longer than Mandarin, and were featured in way more comics than he. Mandarin appeared at most in only 500+ comics throughout his history. Those guys... They have thousands and thousands of comics under their belt. Not to mention, both of them have individual stories that were solely about them. Mandarin has only one individual story, and it's, ironically, isn't even about him in the first place.

that establish why they are good arch enemies for their chosen heroes.

I thought that John Byrne, Kurt Busiek, Joe Cassey, Knauf duo, and even Fraction have established why Iron Man and Mandarin are such a great villains.

Sure Joker is not great if you take away the O'Neil or Moore stories, but those stories are why he is a great character and Mandarin doesn't have the some depth of classic stories as the other villains you mentioned.

Mandarin has enough depth in his conception to go toe to toe with those guys. The only thing that he lacks is prominence. He needs to be much more prominent character than he is.

Purple Man was a nothing character till Alias and became one of the best MCU villains in Jessica Jones. So yes, bad characters can become better later on, but good writers need to revamp them and other writers need to build on it.

Well, except, purple man has always been a joke of a character, thus he wasn't taken seriously until Alias. The Mandarin has always been a sophisticated character with well-written characterization.

The run that revamped Iron Man back in the late 70s and early 80s, barely featured the Mandarin.

I guess you are referring to Bob Layton's/David Michelini's first run? Funny, there's one guy on YouTube called Eric, who loves Iron Man 3, who made same argument when he was defending Iron Man 3. Yes, Mandarin wasn't featured in their run. But, neither the Joker was featured in the first part of Legends of the Dark Knight. After the start of Cold War, Captain America's comics didn't featured the Red Skull. He was fighting only communists. But then, of course, it turned out that it wasn't the "real" Captain America. Also, the reason why that run didn't have the Mandarin is because Layton and Michelini wanted to keep Iron Man grounded in some sort of reality, keeping his character inside the corporative routine, thus they tried to avoid fantastical characters like the Mandarin. They featured him in the second run, and even Bob Layton himself have described Mandarin as a good villain.

When you think of the best Iron Man stories

I think of stories like Vengeance in Vietnam, Midas storyline, Armor Wars Part II (which features the Mandarin), I think of Dennis O'Neil run (which had two-part story with the Mandarin and Radioactive Man), and I think of Enter the Mandarin (which is solely about Mandarin and Iron Man). I would throw Book of Ten Rings, Mahnunt, and Singularity in there. And, by the way, Mandarin is never presented in those stories, but his son can count as a successor of the Mandarin.

I think there has only been one truly great Mandarin story, but he borrowed a lot from Ra's Al Ghul and the next writer ignored it.

Maybe you mean "Ra's Al Ghul borrowed a lot from Mandarin"? From what I can recall, Ra's Al Ghul was created almost decade after the Mandarin. And what is very convenient, he was created by Dennis O'Neil, who wrote one of the best Iron Man runs during the 80's, and he had pretty good knowledge og the character when he wrote that run, since he was very consistent with everything that came before him, thus, I think he was a fan of Iron Man for a long time, and he was probably inspired by the Mandarin.

I think Mandarin being a racial stereotype and an archetype is why he is always changed for adaptions

No, it's clearly not because of that, since he: A) Not a racial stereotype, and B) his characterization have moved away from his original archetypal nature a long time ago. And the reason why he's changed is because the people who were trying to adapt him were not comic book fans, or fans of the character, for that matter. Tell me that if Marvel would make an animated versions of Enter the Mandarin or Haunted, similarly to how DC adapts their comic storylines for their animated universe, it wouldn't work. Tell me that seeing any of this stuff in animated form wouldn't be way better than what we saw so far from the Mandarin in other forms of medium.

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when you are aiming something at a wider audience, there are boarder concerns, then you are aiming something at a niche audience.

Tell that to Nolan, who didn't changed The Dark Knight for one bit from the way he envisioned that movie from the start. Warner. Brothers could've made an extra million dollars at the Chinese market if they would cut the Lao subplot from the film, but Warner. Brothers didn't release some Chinese cut of the movie that completely ruins the integrity of the original film, like Marvel did with Iron Man 3 (though, Iron Man 3 was a terrible movie anyway), when everything that portrays Chinese negatively is cut out, and where there is tons of Chinese product placement. No. Nolan said, "If they don't want it, so be it. They can keep watching Transformers movies that they like so much."
 
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LOL still saddened by this I see

Has someone asked for your opinion? I mean, nobody forces you to read any of these threads. We get it. You hate comics, you hate Mandarin, you hate comic book enthusiasts that are very dedicated to their favorite characters from the comics. You would know by now that this thread is filled with people that love Mandarin.... So why you keep coming back? You don't like us, and we don't like you. We get it.
 
Has someone asked for your opinion? I mean, nobody forces you to read any of these threads. We get it. You hate comics, you hate Mandarin, you hate comic book enthusiasts that are very dedicated to their favorite characters from the comics. You would know by now that this thread is filled with people that love Mandarin.... So why you keep coming back? You don't like us, and we don't like you. We get it.

I don't recall saying I hate comics? Or Comic Enthusiasts? Also it seems like this thread is filled with mixed responses, but now is filling up due to your essay long responses to a movie people have long since gotten over lol. You don't like me though?

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I can visit whatever thread I want, and the Mandarin still sucks ass.
 
I think we can all agree Iron Man has a flat out awful rogues gallery filled with villains no one knows or cares about.
 
Has someone asked for your opinion? I mean, nobody forces you to read any of these threads. We get it. You hate comics, you hate Mandarin, you hate comic book enthusiasts that are very dedicated to their favorite characters from the comics. You would know by now that this thread is filled with people that love Mandarin.... So why you keep coming back? You don't like us, and we don't like you. We get it.

I have no desire to respond to the giant wall of text you posted, unless you I can start billing you for my time, but I think this is why your arguments have been problematic, people have been criticized the character and you have engage in personal attacks, one of these things is allowed by the rules, the other isn't. Also getting upset over someone criticizing a fictional character is such a first world problem its ridiculous, there are far more important things to get upset about.

Anyway, I think you have realize is different people have different opinions on comic characters and I think Mandarin is a divisive character, whether you like or not. Shane Black clearly thought he was a racial stereotype and you can complain about that all you want, but it is a common perception about the character and I think there is some truth to it. Shane Black is a director who has done good work, so I don't think you an dismiss his opinion out of hand, a lot of directors would have the same issues.

Also Marvel apparently tried to do a comic book Mandarin in the first film and it just wasn't working, maybe that character doesn't work on the Silver Screen.
 
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Also Marvel apparently tried to do a comic book Mandarin in the first film and it just wasn't working, maybe that character doesn't work on the Silver Screen.

I heard about that. Are there any infos about this version of the first Iron Man movie online? I'm curious.
 
I don't recall saying I hate comics?

I probably should've put it in a different. You're ashamed of the comics. That's what I mean.

Or Comic Enthusiasts?

I'm a comic book enthusiast. You constantly insulting my comic book preferences.

Also it seems like this thread is filled with mixed responses, but now is filling up due to your essay long responses to a movie people have long since gotten over lol.

So if people have gotten over, why you can't get over when someone like me says something about it? In fact, I wasn't even talking about the movie, since I could care less if people like Iron Man 3 as long as they don't start attacking comic book enthusiasts for their dislike over that film.

You don't like me though?

I don't like your ignorant, biased attitude.



I can visit whatever thread I want

And complain about people on those threads like an angry child who constantly gets up on a rake and the complains about it.

and the Mandarin still sucks ass.

Mandarin "sucks ass" in every other form of medium besides comic books. That is correct.
 
I have no desire to respond to the giant wall of text you posted, unless you I can start billing you for my time, but I think this is why your arguments have been problematic

Someone who continuously repeats same points over and over again in every comment right now accuses me in problematic arguments?

people have been criticized the character

People criticize everything. That's why these things are called opinions. They can be positive and negative. Also, there are many people on this site that were saying that they are fans of the character. In fact, Bob Layton, who is an authoritative voice when it comes to Iron Man, said that Mandarin is a great villain. Yeah, and he hated Iron Man 2 and 3, and he called Shane Black an incompetent filmmaker when it comes to comic books.

and you have engage in personal attacks

Where? Can you show me an example in which I attacked someone? And I mean real personal attack. When I called you a lair, that wasn't an attack. Also, this guy with Killing Joke GIF on his avatar have been slamming people that are against Iron Man 3 constantly. In fact, there is his comment that is above yours, that says, "Oh, and Mandarin sucks ass", but you're not saying anything about that, probably because that guy follows your own agenda.

of these things is allowed by the rules, the other isn't. Also getting upset over someone criticizing a fictional character is such a first world problem its ridiculous, there are far more important things to get upset about.

Em, yeah... Says someone who gets triggered every time when someone writes anything positive about "fictional character", and who sees it as his life mission to shoehorn his five cents about the Mandarin down everyone's throat at every chance he gets. I mean, seriously, I saw you on plenty similar topics, and I saw you just randomly pushing your opinion down everyone's throat because someone said something positive about the character.

Anyway, I think you have realize is different people have different opinions on comic characters and I think Mandarin is a divisive character, whether you like or not.

Terrence Malick's movies are divisive as well. It doesn't mean they are bad. It means that they have fans and haters.

Shane Black clearly thought he was a racial stereotype

Yet, Shane Black, who originally wrote the script for Lethal Weapon, created a character of Al Leong, who seems quite racially stereotypical.

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An Asian man with long hair, Fu Manchu beard, who loves torturing white people? Clearly not stereotypical, ha?

Also, if we're going to talk about racial sensitivity, what is really funny, Shane Black was defending Mel Gibson's racist remarks towards Jewish and black people. And his way of defending him was by saying, "Oh, well, we all get drunk and stay stupid things."

and you can complain about that all you want

I don't complain. I defend my personal viewpoint. Shane Black is not an authority on the Mandarin, or character of Iron Man for that matter. He thinks that it was Jon Favreau who moved Iron Man's origin from Vietnam into the Middle-East, despite the fact that Iron Man comics have been exploiting the war in Middle-East since 2003, and the origin of Iron Man was moved to the Middle-East in the Extremis story from 2005, which WAS USED AS A MAIN SOURCE OF INSPIRATION FOR IRON MAN 3!

He didn't even read that story.

but it is a common perception about the character and I think there is some truth to it.

And many people, including acclaimed writer Garth Ennis, believe that Batman is a sexual deviant, or at least was at one point in his career. He even mocked Batman's sexual deviations in his book "The Boys".

Shane Black is a director who has done good work

With movies that are not called Iron Man 3.

so I don't think you an dismiss his opinion out of hand

Yes I will. At least when it comes to Iron Man, since that guy knows as much about Iron Man as Joel Schumacher knows about Batman.

a lot of directors would have the same issues.

Except for Nolan. Nolan wasn't afraid of casting an Asian actor for the role of an Asian villain who in the comics even had yellow skin (and you can't go more yellow peril than that).

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Also Marvel apparently tried to do a comic book Mandarin in the first film and it just wasn't working, maybe that character doesn't work on the Silver Screen.

Also, Marvel were trying to make an Ant-Man movie since 2006, but it was finally released only after nine years of development hell. So I guess Ant-Man wasn't working as well, ha? But, to answer your question more substantially, Favreau wanted to include the Mandarin in the first film originally. But he thought that it would be too much for one movie. He wanted to take Star Wars approach with Iron Man films. He wanted to build up the Mandarin instead of shoehorning him right away. They were going to do the Mandarin at some point. You think those obvious references to the Mandarin in the first Iron Man were just put randomly in the film? You think Raza was wearing that big ring randomly? You think his monologue about Genghis Khan, with whom Mandarin loves to associate himself in the comics, was random? You think the name of the terrorist group that kidnapped Stark coincidentally was called "Ten Rings"?

Granted, I don't think that Favreau would do the comic book Mandarin anyway, since, to give at least some credit to Shane Black, Jon Favreau was the first who turned one of the most iconic Iron Man villains into an utter joke. I don't know who was that pathetic loser in Iron Man 2, but it wasn't Justin Hammer that I knew from the comics. And Bob Layton hated his character as well.
 
I think we can all agree

That deciding what others think before they even said something is quite arrogant.

Iron Man has a flat out awful rogues gallery filled with villains no one knows or cares about.

So you just admitted that you don't know or care about his villains, yet, you're making this arrogant allegation in which you're claiming that Iron Man has awful villains, despite the fact that you're not familiar with his villains? Iron Man has plenty of great villains. I don't care if people know or care for them, but they're good villains.

Here are few of them (not including the Mandarin, since he's the most obvious choice).

Madam Masque.

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Kathy Dare. (She shot Tony Stark, after what he became crippled.)

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Aisha. (She was responsible for the death of the unborn child of Pepper and Tony.)

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Temujin.

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Justin Hammer.

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Obadiah Stane.

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Just because movie versions of some of those characters were horrible it doesn't mean that characters themselves are horrible.
 
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But no. I am not ashamed of comics. Not sure where you got that from. I do happen to have a comic book avvy, with a comic book movie quote as my username...on a comic book forum. Also, calling someone ignorant and having a biased attitude seems a bit....i dunno...redundant? When doing the same thing lol
 

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