Marvel Films The Marvel Studios News and Discussion Thread

[Spider-Fan]

So what happens when the ecosystem doesn't flow like it used to? If the stories you are creating turn away a section of the fanbase and the IP is not getting the returns it once did over multiple projects? Do the licensing fees, merch sales, and park attendance numbers not diminish? A much less bountiful ecosystem is still better then taking time to get a solid plan and getting it right? Everything flows downstream from the stories, if the merch is for a divisive project or a terrible film, than ultimately it's not good for anyone long term and the chickens will always come home to roost.

It's also naive to think that studios don't track or are influenced by what other studios are doing (see WB with Marvel) that's the history of Hollywood, particularly when competing against another iconic brand like DC in what is still the biggest genre at the moment. I know you dismissed it to make your point, I'm just not convinced this is the paradigm they are slaves to.

If you look at any public record of merch sales, they're always better when there is a movie or some other media driving it. Spider-Man merch sells better in years a movie is released. That applies to any IP. Can bad media drive people and hurt the brand? Yes it can, but so does inaction with the brand. Hence why someone like Spider-Man gets rebooted quickly. They don't want him out of the public eye for long. With Marvel, you can always shift characters who are not as popular around and push other ones. Like maybe they focus on X-Men when this Saga is over.

And sure, Marvel pays attention to what DC is doing. But not in the way where they don't want DC to make more BO or movies critics and such like more. DC matters to Disney in that they're a competitor for licensing. So if DC is doing better than they are, maybe Coke partners with DC instead of Marvel and things like that. But it isn't for them about quality. They're a corporation. They care about $$$$. End of story. New media makes selling the brand to others easier. Don't take my word for those. Look up revenue reports for Marvel. This is why Disney wanted Marvel. Not to sit on the brand, but to exploit it. This is why Marvel or Star Wars or whatever will always be doing something

 

[lenz]

If you look at any public record of merch sales, they're always better when there is a movie or some other media driving it. Spider-Man merch sells better in years a movie is released. That applies to any IP. Can bad media drive people and hurt the brand? Yes it can, but so does inaction with the brand. Hence why someone like Spider-Man gets rebooted quickly. They don't want him out of the public eye for long. With Marvel, you can always shift characters who are not as popular around and push other ones. Like maybe they focus on X-Men when this Saga is over.

And sure, Marvel pays attention to what DC is doing. But not in the way where they don't want DC to make more BO or movies critics and such like more. DC matters to Disney in that they're a competitor for licensing. So if DC is doing better than they are, maybe Coke partners with DC instead of Marvel and things like that. But it isn't for them about quality. They're a corporation. They care about $$$$. End of story. New media makes selling the brand to others easier. Don't take my word for those. Look up revenue reports for Marvel. This is why Disney wanted Marvel. Not to sit on the brand, but to exploit it. This is why Marvel or Star Wars or whatever will always be doing something

I think you are looking at it too narrowly and cynically, which is understandable considering we're talking about Hollywood. What you are missing is a focus on licensing and merchandising is a short term play vs building the long term value of its creative endeavors. Especially nowadays when a studios library and it's "stickiness" is of paramount importance as it reduces churn and creates loyalty on it's streaming services.

The long-term play is the focus now.

So Disney's biggest failure the last six years since Endgame hasn't been that their projects have generally underwhelmed and therefore have not maximized auxiliary revenue streams off said projects, it's that they have undoubtedly failed to create long term value of these staple brands across the various businesses under their umbrella.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I think you are looking at it too narrowly and cynically, which is understandable considering we're talking about Hollywood. What you are missing is a focus on licensing and merchandising is a short term play vs building the long term value of its creative endeavors. Especially nowadays when a studios library and it's "stickiness" is of paramount importance as it reduces churn and creates loyalty on it's streaming services.

The long-term play is the focus now.

So Disney's biggest failure the last six years since Endgame hasn't been that their projects have generally underwhelmed and therefore have not maximized auxiliary revenue streams off said projects, it's that they have undoubtedly failed to create long term value of these staple brands across the various businesses under their umbrella.

It's not me you have to convince. It's Disney who owns Marvel. It doesn't matter how you or I would run Marvel or would see it. Disney is Disney and it's their property, and that's how they run the ship, and this is their business strategy. They're not going to change that

 

[lenz]

It's not me you have to convince. It's Disney who owns Marvel. It doesn't matter how you or I would run Marvel or would see it. Disney is Disney and it's their property, and that's how they run the ship

That's the thing though, I think they are convinced. They have done a good job creating value for their streamer as a whole, they've just woefully underachieved on the promise of their Marvel and Star Wars projects.

This mess started during the pandemic when Chapek initiated the ramp-up of Marvel content to procure subs quickly and increase the stock price. The company is now scaling back to a "less is more" strategy (which also means less merch revenue in volume) which in theory will give the studio more time to develop and cultivate projects that last. Of course merch and other revenue streams are important, but it's just not the core influence you are stating it is in a streaming landscape.

 

[Spider-Fan]

That's the thing though, I think they are convinced. They have done a good job creating value for their streamer as a whole, they've just woefully underachieved on the promise of their Marvel and Star Wars projects.

This mess started during the pandemic when Chapek initiated the ramp-up of Marvel content to procure subs quickly and increase the stock price. The company is now scaling back to a "less is more" strategy (which also means less merch revenue in volume) which in theory will give the studio more time to develop and cultivate projects that last.

Less is more is not freezing the property though. They're still pumping out content. You are still getting 2 movies a year plus shows. You said they need to freeze the entire thing for 5 years but concluded they won't cause of DC. But that's not the reason that they won't. They won't cause they need to fuel the ecosystem. Maybe they will scale it back even further to 1 release a year if it gets worse or just focus on the more popular characters only, but what they won't do is scale back to 0 for any amount of years barring a strike or other disaster like a pandemic. That's just not how Disney operates

 

[FrankenCastle]

Less is more is not freezing the property though. They're still pumping out content. You are still getting 2 movies a year plus shows. You said they need to freeze the entire thing for 5 years but concluded they won't cause of DC. But that's not the reason that they won't. They won't cause they need to fuel the ecosystem. Maybe they will scale it back even further to 1 release a year if it gets worse or just focus on the mor popular characters only, but what they won't do is scale back to 0 for any amount of years barring a strike or other disaster like a pandemic. That's just not how Disney operates

Until something better and more profitable comes along, capesh*t certainly still has many years ahead of it.

My guess is that video game adaptations are the next big thing. Like the superhero genre, it first struggled to be taken seriously by executives, and the first ones were rather inconclusive to say the least (they were pure sh*t), but now, it seems like they have finally cracked the code (Mario, Sonic, Minecraft..). All box office bangers.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Until something better and more profitable comes along, capesh*t certainly still has many years ahead of it.

My guess is that video game adaptations are the next big thing. Like the superhero genre, it first struggled to be taken seriously by executives, and the first ones were rather inconclusive to say the least (they were pure sh*t), but now, it seems like they have finally cracked the code (Mario, Sonic, Minecraft..). All box office bangers.

They're certainly a contender. Def going to be seeing a huge wave of them in the coming years. Especially from Nintendo as they seem to be pretty aggressive about movie expansion.

 

[lenz]

Less is more is not freezing the property though. They're still pumping out content. Your still getting 2 movies a year plus shows. You said they need to freeze the entire thing for 5 years but concluded they won't cause of DC. But that's not the reason that they won't. They won't cause they need to fuel the ecosystem. Maybe they will scale it back even further to 1 release a year if it gets worse, but what they won't do is scale back to 0 for any amount of years barring a strike or other disaster like a pandemic. That's just not how Disney operates

I didn't say they "need" to freeze it for 5 tears, I said they should, or what I think would be ideal.

I do think DC is a major reason why. Disney's biggest brand is Marvel and if they shelve it for five years while Gunn's DCU and Reeves Batman universe exist on their own to potentially win over a much needed younger demo (and dominate the conversation online), than it's a potential recipe for a tough road ahead. When you come back you may find yourself in a similar situation that DC was in in 2012 after the Avengers hit. They were suddenly in a scramble to play catch-up and throwing Batman and Superman together was not nearly enough to win over the fans that Marvel had carefully cultivated since Iron Man. Disney understands through history it was advantageous for them being the first mover, which is why they would never let themselves fall too far behind on their upcoming "reboot".

 

[Spider-Fan]

I didn't say they "need" to freeze it for 5 tears, I said they should, or what I think would be ideal.

I do think DC is a major reason why. Disney's biggest brand is Marvel and if they shelve it for five years while Gunn's DCU and Reeves Batman universe exist on their own to potentially win over a much needed younger demo (and dominate the conversation online), than it's a potential recipe for a tough road ahead. When you come back you may find yourself in a similar situation that DC was in in 2012 after the Avengers hit. They were suddenly in a scramble to play catch-up and throwing Batman and Superman together was not nearly enough to win over the fans that Marvel had carefully cultivated since Iron Man. Disney understands through history it was advantageous for them being the first mover, which is why they would never let themselves fall too far behind on their upcoming "reboot".

This is very flawed thinking. Marvel and DC were rivals in the comics industry, yes. They're rival brands in the world of media, sure. But DC is in competition with Marvel as much as they are any IP in their demo, like a Jurassic World or Mario or Harey Potter or whatever. Marvel isn't losing sleep cause DC is doing better. They're losing sleep over what is happening in their own IP. I don't even think DC is the main competition for Marvel in the IP space. DC is facing many of the same apathy issues Marvel is cause they are in a similar genre. What's going to overtake Marvel as top dog is more than likely some other entity. Something not superhero related that will take the world by storm. Marvel may steal ideas from the competition, but that isn't limited to DC. I think we as fans of comic books are more ingrained in this DC vs Marvel mentality than your average movie goer or even the studios themselves are. We are still acting like it is the Coke vs Pepsi comic book days, but both brands are bigger than that now. They're global media empires. The nature of that dynamic isn't the same

 

[lenz]

This is very flawed thinking. Marvel and DC were rivals in the comics industry, yes. They're rival brands in the world of media, sure. But DC is in competition with Marvel as much as they are any IP in their demo, like a Jurassic World or Mario or Harey Potter or whatever. Marvel isn't losing sleep cause DC is doing better. They're losing sleep over what is happening in their own IP. I don't even think DC is the main competition for Marvel in the IP space. DC is facing many of the same apathy issues Marvel is cause they are in a similar genre. What's going to overtake Marvel as top dog is more than likely some other entity. Something not superhero related that will take the world by storm. Marvel may steal ideas from the competition, but that isn't limited to DC. I think we as fans of comic books are more ingrained in this DC vs Marvel mentality than your average movie goer or even the studios themselves are. We are still acting like it is the Coke vs Pepsi comic book days, but both brands are bigger than that now. They're global media empires. The nature of that dynamic isn't the same

Of course competition will come from other sources, but I am focusing on Marvel vs DC because the genre as a whole has become over-saturated and is losing steam, particularly with the younger demo. I also single them out because they're most likely the only two properties that can/will have long running universes without an extended break, as well as being the two franchises that will most directly influence the other. How is this flawed thinking? It's common sense.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Of course competition will come from other sources, but I am focusing on Marvel vs DC because the genre as a whole has become over-saturated and is losing steam, particularly with the younger demo. I also single them out because it's most likely the only two properties that can/will have long running universes without an extended break, as well as the two franchises that will most directly influence the other. How is this flawed thinking? It's common sense.

DC is in the same boat Marvel is. Superman did well, but I cannot see a world where they are the next Phase 3 era Marvel Studios. Even at the peak of whatever power they obtain in this new era. Those days are done. The media landscape itself is changing, so it might not be some interconnected universe that takes top billing. For example, Nintendo if game movies become the new thing, those don't need to be interconnected. Just a steady flow of various properties.

Marvel and DC can still be successful brands. But they're not in competition like they were fighting for some kid's quarter in the 70s. They're in a race to keep people engaged against a variety of other competitors for people's money.

 

[lenz]

DC is in the same boat Marvel is. Superman did well, but I cannot see a world where they are the next Phase 3 era Marvel Studios. Even at the peak of whatever power they obtain in this new era. Those days are done. The media landscape itself is changing, so it might not be some interconnected universe that takes top billing. For example, Nintendo if game movies become the new thing, those don't need to be interconnected. Just a steady flow of various properties.

Marvel and DC can still be successful brands. But they're not in competition like they were fighting for some kid's quarter in the 70s. They're in a race to keep people engaged against a variety of other competitors for people's money.

I agree, the unrivaled dominance at the box office is over, certainly with the same predictability.

I still think the genre can be better though. I remember the Whedon quote in the early development days of Age of Ultron when he was asked how he can top the first Avengers. He stated the goal wasn't to be bigger, but deeper. We ended up with a film with even more spectacle, but the sentiment rings true.