The Official Avengers Thread (Heroic Age Bendis/JRJR)

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Luke Cage IS the New Warriors. The only people who've been on the team since day one hae been him, Spidey, and Wolverine but Wolverines always been on multiple teams so this was just another thing for him and now it's the same with Spidey. Luke, however, has been there from day one. He helps run the Thunderbolts and is in that book but he's not actually a Thunderbolt. He's a New Avenger helping run the Thunderbolts.

And of all characters we've seen Luke grow the most of all the New Avengers, from street hero to Avenger to father to husband, etc.

Personally, I don't care about the big wigs so I don't really care who's on the Avengers roster, but I like the more street level team. My pick would be:

New Avengers
Luke Cage
Jessica Jones
Iron Fist
Spider-Man
Thing
Spider-Woman
Daredevil (since he's going the more heroic route now)

I still like Victoria Hand being involved and I like the idea of an X-Man being there. I actually do like Wolverine on the team but he really shouldn't be there. I'm thinking maybe someone off the radar like Havoc or Gambit.
 
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Wolverine should never be an Avenger. If I had to put him on an Avengers team, I would put him on Secret Avengers and be under the very close supervision of Steve Rogers to ensure that he won't go off and kill people.
 
Wolverine and Spider-Man have no business being Avengers.
 
Wolverine doesn't. Spider-Man would have been a great Avenger years ago if he wasn't dead to me. :o
 
Luke Cage IS the New Warriors.

New AVENGERS. Rage was in the NEW WARRIORS (and Avengers). :word:

I don't usually do "wish list rosters" because in the end, any roster is really only as good as it's writer, and the writer is only as good as the reader believes they are. Bendis can make a gold roster look boring, mundane, and trivial, while Dan Abnett & Andy Lanning can have a book that exclusively stars Misty Knight and Paladin and make it compelling.

But since it's that time of the year again when everyone does ideal rosters, may as well get it in. First I'll start out with the rosters of books I am currently (as of this post at least) still reading.

SECRET AVENGERS:
Steve Rogers
Beast
Moon Knight
War Machine
Valkyrie
Ant-Man
Blue Marvel

All I've really done is added Blue Marvel as a 7th member of the team, since that spot has usually always fluctuated (it has been filled by Nova and Prince Of Orphans). This is naturally Kevin Grevioux's character from ADAM: LEGEND OF THE BLUE MARVEL as well as a strip in AGE OF HEROES and likely some other anthology soon. To me, Blue Marvel is "the Sentry done right". He's a retconned in Silver Age hero who is very powerful who the world has somehow never heard of. The key differences are that his design is better, his origin is better, his power level more stable, and the reason for him being "off the grid" for so long makes perfect sense. He also wasn't as much of a "Mary Sue" as Sentry was for Paul Jenkins (Bob was magically the best friend of the Hulk, Spider-Man, the X-Men, the FF, and every Marvel hero; Blue Marvel is only friends with Namor and the Watcher). Plus, he hasn't been devolved into a maniac for a decade like Sentry was.

Blue Marvel has a good reason to be a "secretive" member, since his past involves some political ugliness committed upon him and he is still largely unknown to most people in the Marvel Universe younger than, say, their mid 40's. He also is a powerful character who could flank War Machine and Valkyrie well, as well as having military experience as a former soldier, AND brains as a scientist and college professor alongside Beast. While Blue Marvel/Adam Brashear may not be a character who can sell his own solo series, I do think he could make a solid part of a well written team book.

Hell, in a way Blue Marvel is halfway there already; since coming out of his forced retirement, he's usually avoided simple bank robbery patrols and focuses on efforts across the world. About the only mention of him outside of a Grevioux strip was in THUNDERBOLTS when they had Hyperion, who Blue Marvel apprehended in that AGE OF MARVELS strip, show up. Luke Cage seemed aware of him, at least. Given his own experiences with the civil rights era of the 60's, he might have some interesting perspective alongside Steve Rogers on things. I see the character as having a lot of potential.

AVENGERS ACADEMY:
Giant-Man/Hank Pym
Quicksilver
Tigra
Justice
Speedball
Jocasta
She-Hulk

Cadets:
Reptil
Mettle
Hazmat
Veil
Finesse
Striker

Much as with the last team, I really only added one member. Having only one female "counselor" on staff who isn't a robot (who occasionally become inert to go make binary with Ultron) seems to be a gap to fill. I don't know what Jen Walters is up to in INCREDIBLE HULKS, but she's one of few B or C list Avengers members who fits the trifecta of being female, well known, and once supported her own series. Thus, she is someone who could maybe bring in new readers if her joining the team was announced and promoted. She also has quite a perspective. She's related to and empowered by the Hulk, who has often been seen as a menace. She has embraced her powers and been a successful Avenger, Fantastic Four member and lawyer. She has also been wanted by the police for a crime she didn't commit, as well as an outlaw during the SHRA era. Plus, she is aware of the law and could be one of the few adult Avengers who could perhaps be aware of the PR cycle alongside Striker.

Firestar isn't here because she's part of the unofficial YOUNG ALLIES and in character she's stated a few times she really wants to try being a college student and cancer survivor more than being a full time heroine. Given that she's been lost in the crowd as a full time heroine I don't mind seeing something different.

In terms of the cadets, the book already has a lot of character and I didn't want to add to them so that others got lost in the shuffle. The difficulty of adding new members, though, is the premise of the book. In theory, the Academy is there to "train the heroes of tomorrow the right way". In practice, it is damage control on some of the young metahumans Norman Osborn mangled the worst, who demand the most hands on attention and training. Would a new student who has nothing to do with Osborn fit in? Would the rest of the cadets embrace or resent this newbie? I suppose it would be a story, I just am not sure these cadets have finished theirs yet.

If I HAD to come up with an interesting new member, while the new Thunderstrike (Kevin Masterson) was offered a spot on the time, I think a long forgotten character, Janet Sorenson, would fit in better. She's the mutant daughter of Equinox, a D-List Spider-Man villain from the 70's who hasn't had too many stories before the SHRA era. His powers were always being in a state of thermodynamic flux so he could generate intense heat & cold; these were due to the ever-reliable lab accident origin. His daughter, Janet, was presumably conceived afterward, although the "sliding time scale" thing might make things difficult. Equinox was empowered in 1974 and by 1994 he had a 6-10 year old daughter, which makes sense in REAL time but maybe not "Marvel time". At any rate, Janet inherited her father's powers to a degree, in that she could start fires and explosions. Her father tried to get her to stop causing destruction with physical abuse, but the Falcon later showed him the error of his ways, and referred her to the X-Men for training, which never happened. Equinox later became a member of the Initiative under both Stark and Osborn. He met with other costumed criminals seeking identities outside the U.S. by Vienna during CIVIL WAR. Given that "Marvel time" usually isn't said to be more than about 15-16 years now at best, Janet probably shouldn't be much older than about 13-14 or so. Still, she'd fit the motif of someone with an unstable power with a less than glamorous legacy that the rest of the cadets have.

As for the rest...so long as Bendis is on them, it really doesn't matter if it has Iron Fist or Thor or Spider-Woman or whatever. He'll botch it.
 
Wolverine and Spider-Man have no business being Avengers.

Spider-Man is a great Avenger. I really don't get why he wasn't put on the team sooner. He's just a great a hero as Captain America and Thor.
 
And I don't understand why for how many years now people keep saying he has no business being an Avengers. I say of any hero in the Marvel Universe save the original team he has the MOST business being an Avenger. Besides Captain America he's the biggest and best example of what a hero should be (well, was prior to OMD anyway). He's a great addition to the team. They just need to delegate him to ONE team and not Three teams.
 
Technically, Spider-Man was an Avenger before NEW AVENGERS. He was made a reserve member in the 90's. He just renounced it later on.

It was initially difficult to get used to the idea of Spider-Man on the Avengers, if only because Marvel for so long played him as a solo hero, DESPITE him literally having two series in which the entire premise was him teaming up with other heroes. As Marvel started to capitalize more on Peter's ties to other heroes, like in BIG TIME or that JMS run I didn't read, it has made more sense. My problem with it, at least when I was reading NEW AVENGERS (and I read it for it's first 30-40 issues, right before the price jumped a buck, basically) was that Spider-Man didn't DO anything beyond make jokes and act like a spastic child, and aside for Luke Cage, none of the other heroes would take him seriously. Sure, Steve Rogers could say a nice speech about him to recruit him, but in day to day operations, nobody ever took his expertise seriously. If he knew anything useful, it was treated as at utmost surprise, and he was usually immediately hit with a wisecrack insulting it by, say, Wolverine or Spider-Woman or whoever. Yet, both of them are characters who nobody insults or treats as useless, despite the fact that there are many situations when both are. Spider-Man has been a hero longer than Luke Cage and Spider-Woman were in real time, yet the team seems to always treat him as some promoted sidekick LUCKY to be on their roster (and he'd often act like it), and that got old very quickly.

To a degree, at least from free previews of AVENGERS, I saw this continued. In some 5-6 page preview, the Avengers were fighting Kang and happened to be thrown into an alternate timeline with Killraven. In a rare bit of continuity expertise, Bendis was aware that Killraven had met Spider-Man and they both knew each other immediately. Rather than appreciate this handy thing, the first thing another Avenger does is make fun of Spidey for this because Killraven doesn't dress well (Spider-Woman). Given how poorly most of the Avengers treat teenage or young adult heroes (either bossing them around when they want canon fodder or telling them to quit at all other times, and ignoring them to their deaths at every crisis, unless they mess up and then a whole CIVIL WAR springs from it), Jennifer Walters could probably make a case that the Avengers are committing age discrimination against the young - any hero under 30 they treat poorly. The FF, beyond some ribbing from Ben Grimm, take Spider-Man a bit more serious.

To be blunt, the ideal way for Spider-Man to act on the Avengers is like the Flash (Wally West) acted on the Justice League. Upbeat and with a sense of humor, but still very experienced and competent, who his teammates usually treat as an equal hero and not a mascot (aside for one grumpy member).
 
Wolverine should never be an Avenger. If I had to put him on an Avengers team, I would put him on Secret Avengers and be under the very close supervision of Steve Rogers to ensure that he won't go off and kill people.

I agree completely, it bugs the crap out of me that he's on the Avengers team.

On another topic... Issue #13 was HORRIBLE! I loved the prior arc and #12.1 but that was Bendis at his worst IMO.
 
Bendis is great in how he consistently gets artists who are terrific with action, such as Mark Bagley or John Romita Jr. or even Alan Davis, and half the time they draw his scripts, he gives them an issue of talking heads. :dry:
 
And Bendis is one of Marvel's big gun writers because...:huh:
 
And Bendis is one of Marvel's big gun writers because...:huh:

He did very well with DAREDEVIL, a title that will always be near and dear to Joe Q's heart. That, and he launched ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN to great sales and kept them great (top 10 level) for many years. His ALIAS won additional critical acclaim atop his old indie's and when Marvel gave him a shot on the Avengers franchise, despite how good, bad, or average his stories were, they sold great for many years. It was on Bendis' watch that the Avengers moved past the X-Men and Spider-Man to become Marvel's top franchise, which is something it'd really never done.

He's the McDonalds of A-List writers - produces product quickly, without a lot of drama or slowdowns, and brings in hefty sales (or at least better sales than many of his peers). If you want burgers that aren't greasy, tasteless, crushed, or mangled, though, you usually dine elsewhere.
 
He did very well with DAREDEVIL, a title that will always be near and dear to Joe Q's heart. That, and he launched ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN to great sales and kept them great (top 10 level) for many years. His ALIAS won additional critical acclaim atop his old indie's and when Marvel gave him a shot on the Avengers franchise, despite how good, bad, or average his stories were, they sold great for many years. It was on Bendis' watch that the Avengers moved past the X-Men and Spider-Man to become Marvel's top franchise, which is something it'd really never done.

He's the McDonalds of A-List writers - produces product quickly, without a lot of drama or slowdowns, and brings in hefty sales (or at least better sales than many of his peers). If you want burgers that aren't greasy, tasteless, crushed, or mangled, though, you usually dine elsewhere.
Ah, of course.

Isn't he also the guy who wrote Janet 'Jan' Van Dyne/Wasp as a total [BLEEP] before killing her off for no better reason than he simply didn't like her?
 
Ah, of course.

Isn't he also the guy who wrote Janet 'Jan' Van Dyne/Wasp as a total [BLEEP] before killing her off for no better reason than he simply didn't like her?

No. He killed Jan Van Dyne/Wasp because otherwise, SECRET INVASION would have not felt like it had any impact or be remembered for much besides, "the event in which the 616 version of Geldoff, a character originally created for Ultimate who was so unpopular that even Bendis forgot about him, was killed off". Now, at least, SECRET INVASION is memorable for being the event where Wasp died. It ain't much, but when your story's rubbish, you take when you can get for memorability.

Some of the tie-in's were good, though. But you could say that of most of the recent events.
 
The only good books that came out of Secret Invasion were MI-13, Incredible Herc and Deadpool.

The rest of it was just a steaming pile.
 
Incredible Herc was the only thing good to come out of another lame event......World War Hulk.
 
Spider-Woman was also very good coming out of Secret Invasion... sadly, it just took them an extra year or two to actually come out with it and it flopped.

Though honestly, if an event gets 3 good ongoings out of it, I think that's actually pretty good.

Of all the events thus far I think that Secret Invasion was the best. It had an epic scope, great lead-in, and I personally felt the payoff (unlike Civil War, Siege, and others) was equal to the quality of the rest of the story. I just feel it was maybe an issue too long that could have been condensed toward the middle.

I was iffy on America taking Osborn under their wing after he shot Spider-Woman but after giving it more thought I was okay with it. Reading tie-ins, it was Norman who saved Washington during the Invasion and he constantly brought his team to the forefront of the battle and then got in the final shot that took down their leader. He was also the guy who made Captain Marvel turn from the Skrulls and set him on a course to take out a large portion of their armada, which resulted in Reed getting free and gathering the heroes for the final battle. He was definately one of the top war heroes of the war, despite his past, and I could see people overlooking that past due to his deeds.
 
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Yea, but if the event book itself is poor, it's kind of a disappointment. And to me it says that the guy writing the main event itself shouldn't be writing the main event, when the tie ins by other writers are better.
 
I don't think so. I thought the book itself was fantastic save a slight lull in the middle that could have been condensed to save an issue. I thought his choices of Skrull traitors were good (Spider-Woman, Hank Pym, and Jarvis) and the tactic of getting rid of the Avengers and FF prior to the big invasion was a nice touch, leaving room for the rookies and underdogs to play a part (Young Avengers, Initiative). He had the wild cards in there with the Secret Warriors and when all that was finished he had side characters like Norman, Captain Marvel, and Brand have larger roles leading into a humungous final battle that was in no way a let down to the build up. Jan's death wasn't as random as people make it sound as it was lead into from an issue or two of Avengers prior to the event.... I just think it all worked out well.

And while I'm not a huge fan of Lional Yu's art (I think that's his name) I thought he turned out a fantastic book.

Edit: My one criticism plot-wise is the fact that the prisoners were in a ship above the Earth. If they'd been taken so long ago why were they still there to be rescued? That's my only real criticism besides the lull in the middle.
 
Secret Invasion was a really fun trade read and Leinil Francis Yu's art steals the show easily, the action was good and it had great character moments from Norman Osbourn to Hawkeye's grief (and then hatred) with Skrull-Mockingbird and whatnot. Wasp's death was meaningless tho and i wish it hadn't happened, but yeah Jewishhobbit pretty much nails why SI was a good story overall.

But hey, if you guys want some fresh Avengers stuff, you can always check this out in August! :p
ultimatescov1CMYK.jpg

ULTIMATE COMICS ULTIMATES #1
Written by JONATHAN HICKMAN
Art by ESAD RIBIC
Cover by KAARE ANDREWS
Variant Cover by ESAD RIBIC
The Republic Is Burning
The next era has begun. As our heroes struggle to find their place in the world, the The Ultimates face game-changing threats even they can’t handle. And with the heart of the team missing in action, the country’s last stand of defense may be on its last legs. Critically acclaimed writer Jonathan Hickman (Fantastic Four, FF, Secret Warriors) and superstar artist Esad Ribic (Uncanny X-Force) drive the Ultimates into new and deadly territory! The series we’ve all been waiting for!
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

PS. So with Incredible Hulks getting canceled, what are the odds their turning Hulk into Savage Hulk due to the upcoming movie? Is that how Age of Ultron will be saved? With a mindless Hulk ust smashing? :p
 
PS. So with Incredible Hulks getting canceled, what are the odds their turning Hulk into Savage Hulk due to the upcoming movie? Is that how Age of Ultron will be saved? With a mindless Hulk ust smashing? :p

I've heard reports that the Hulk will be more intelligent in this movie than previous films, so wouldnt that be like 2 steps back haha
 
And of all characters we've seen Luke grow the most of all the New Avengers, from street hero to Avenger to father to husband, etc.

And in that same time, Spider-Man/Peter Parker has regressed the most! :oldrazz:
 
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