The Official Avengers Thread (Heroic Age Bendis/JRJR)

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I'm worried. Bendis apparently feels he hasn't ruined enough characters he didn't create. Anything he writes becomes "Insta-Canon" that is editorially mandated and supported down the line, and any issues it creates is left to other writers to fix, run with, omit, or otherwise fix.

Peter Milligan remains the only writer who DARED undo something Bendis personally did in an event (depowering Iceman in M-Day), and you'll notice he's never been allowed to write as big a Marvel book as UNCANNY X-MEN ever again. Part of me refuses to see that as coincidence. Nowadays he sticks to DC or spare material in Marvel anthologies.


haha yes... I doubt that has as much to do with Bendis as it does the editors, though. Hard to say. I don't think Bendis has ever surpassed what he did with Powers. But thats just moi. :cwink:
 
I'm worried. Bendis apparently feels he hasn't ruined enough characters he didn't create. Anything he writes becomes "Insta-Canon" that is editorially mandated and supported down the line, and any issues it creates is left to other writers to fix, run with, omit, or otherwise fix.

Peter Milligan remains the only writer who DARED undo something Bendis personally did in an event (depowering Iceman in M-Day), and you'll notice he's never been allowed to write as big a Marvel book as UNCANNY X-MEN ever again. Part of me refuses to see that as coincidence. Nowadays he sticks to DC or spare material in Marvel anthologies.

I am dreading, no pun intended, seeing more characters I like narratively mutilated. Did he forget that Wonder Man's tenure in the MASTERS OF EVIL ended in his first appearance in the 60's? That nobody wants to see heroes hit each other anymore? That X-MEN SCHISM has literally been met by a collective GROAN by the masses for that very reason? Sigh.
The paranoid conspiracy theorist part, clearly. I very much doubt Milligan was somehow blacklisted because he dared to undo Iceman's depowering. He probably hasn't gotten to write something big again because his Uncanny run didn't sell especially well, nor has anything else he's done for Marvel. His biggest success was X-Statix, which was a critically acclaimed but low-selling cult book.
 
Wonder Man, Black Knight, She-Hulk, Hank Pym, Tigra, the Falcon, and U.S. Agent

While I know that line-up would be unlikely (what with Pym and Tigra running the Academy and USAgent doing his Raft thing), I'm still worried that he'll randomly decide to toss Black Knight in there. Photon, too, just out of paranoia for my favorite underused Avengers.
 
haha yes... I doubt that has as much to do with Bendis as it does the editors, though. Hard to say. I don't think Bendis has ever surpassed what he did with Powers. But thats just moi. :cwink:

I don't think Bendis has surpassed his stuff on DAREDEVIL, or the first few years of USM.

Unfortunately, even with sales as low as he is, he's still a Top 5 seller. Sure, Marvel has promoted his Avengers titles as driving the line for 6 years now, but...credit is credit.

The paranoid conspiracy theorist part, clearly. I very much doubt Milligan was somehow blacklisted because he dared to undo Iceman's depowering. He probably hasn't gotten to write something big again because his Uncanny run didn't sell especially well, nor has anything else he's done for Marvel. His biggest success was X-Statix, which was a critically acclaimed but low-selling cult book.

You're probably right. That's why I said only "part" of me believes that.

Still, it is a great coincidence that a writer who used to work on UNCANNY X-MEN, a big title that has seen writers such as Chris Claremont, Ed Brubaker and Matt Fraction helm it for periods, suddenly doesn't get big work from Marvel despite being the only writer on staff who I recall undoing something Bendis did from up on Mount Egolympus to one of his book's characters within 2 months. Bendis chose to personally depower Iceman at the end of M-Day, who was a member of Milligan's UXM team. I imagine that was a great monkey wrench, and rather than sigh and run with it like EVERY SINGLE WRITER AT MARVEL ALWAYS MAGICALLY DOES WITH ANY HOKUM BENDIS WRITES, erased it like it was a typo in Word. Milligan didn't even use a fancy pants explanation - Bobby undid it with will - "I want my powers back so bad...oh, look, they're back. Just had to concentrate." No other mutant character has been repowered this easily.

You're right, it's just me being delusional. But until Milligan gets to write a larger Marvel book again, part of me will still see it as quite a coincidence.

Most writers wouldn't have the balls to undo something he did that was stupid unless Bendis not only retired from Marvel, but was dead of old age for ten years. Instead they work around it, or through it, or omit it, or justify it/explain it. Not outright go, "That's clearly ****ed up," and undo it. And in fairness, that is probably because that might encourage Bendis to muck with their books more.

David Liss undoes something Bendis has happen to, say, Storm. Bendis then has Black Panther guest star in a special issue of NEW AVENGERS and be killed by the Hood, and then give a smarmy lecture on NEWSARAMA claiming he had Liss' blessing. Everyone at Marvel who isn't a fool has to know that while I am sure Bendis has superiors he listens to, he's "more equal" than any writer on staff. And I wouldn't mind that if he didn't write team books so poorly, and seem to have some fixation on mangling characters he can't be bothered to understand.

Poetic justice would be after Bendis retires at some point, another arrogant writer kills off Jessica Jones to amp up his OWN completely generic one note villain character. And then goes on a comic news website and claims he got Bendis' blessing. :awesome:
 
Didn't Dan Slott undo some Bendis stuff? She-Hulk established that half the s*** that happened around the Avengers Disassembled period may have actually been alternate universe versions of the characters. Mighty Avengers established that chaos magic does indeed exist, Disassembled be damned. But Slott seems to be doing all right. I hear they even gave him a choice assignment as the main mastermind behind that spider fellow everyone's so fond of. ;)
 
Slott has compromising photos of Axel Alonso. It takes him far.
 
Milligan didn't write UXM, he wrote regular X-Men.

Nevertheless, I detest the Wonder Man plot and not because it was brought up a year ago, revisited 6 months ago and both times it sucked. The entire thing makes no sense and Bendis gave no legitimate reasoning for Wonder Man's behavior. He's basically like, "I hate you guys now". The idea of an anti-Avenger team is even dumber and a total contradiction considering Wonder-Man's new found "principles" that the Avengers do more harm than good. D-U-M-B.
 
Yeah, I'm not really sure how the Skrulls or Kang ruling the world would somehow be an improvement compared to the Avengers causing a bit of property damage and not being able to rescue absolutely everyone when they stop those threats. His logic seems somewhat flawed.
 
Didn't Dan Slott undo some Bendis stuff? She-Hulk established that half the s*** that happened around the Avengers Disassembled period may have actually been alternate universe versions of the characters. Mighty Avengers established that chaos magic does indeed exist, Disassembled be damned. But Slott seems to be doing all right. I hear they even gave him a choice assignment as the main mastermind behind that spider fellow everyone's so fond of. ;)

No other comic that isn't written by Dan Slott accepts either attempt to smooth things over. No other writer on any other comic has ran with the idea of the alternate universe tourists in SHE-HULK; not a one. The shame of it is that it would explain a damn lot of badly written stories and outright gaffes (like this week's SA #14 with Brunnhilde). The only franchise such things effected was YOUNG AVENGERS, which Marvel has kept in a freezer for years anyway. As for chaos magic, Bendis still acts like it doesn't exist, and they'll go with him. It's up to the Handbooks to decide. Didn't he completely get the nature of Dr. Strange's magic 100% wrong in NEW AVENGERS and nobody said boo at Marvel?

Slott's vital to Marvel on ASM and has been succeeding there. That said, whatever Fraction does to Spidey in FEAR ITSELF is above him.

Wonder Man's crusade is dumb. Why are the Avengers a bad thing? It's absurdity. I hate how a writer like Bendis who clearly can't stand superhero comics or the characters in them is allowed so much weight with them. It's like if WWE hired someone who hated wrestling and thought it was all macho drivel to pen their ENTIRE calendar of shows for 5 years.
 
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Question, very important one too, why do all the Avengers books except Academy suck so much ass right now?

Answer: Bendis.
 
Question, very important one too, why do all the Avengers books except Academy suck so much ass right now?

Answer: Bendis.

In fairness, Bendis has nothing to do with SECRET AVENGERS being underwhelming (at best).
 
Yeah, that was Brubaker's fumble. Spencer's not doing an especially great job either, and I very much doubt Ellis will. After this week's Valkyrie issue, I'm thinking I'll probably just drop Secret Avengers altogether.
 
Yeah, I'm considering on dropping Secret Avengers once the Fear Itself issues are done. It feels like a directionless book and it doesn't look like it'll improve under Ellis.
 
Yeah, that was Brubaker's fumble. Spencer's not doing an especially great job either, and I very much doubt Ellis will. After this week's Valkyrie issue, I'm thinking I'll probably just drop Secret Avengers altogether.

I've never blamed all of SA's woes on Spencer. Brubaker didn't exactly hit a grand slam with his year on it.
 
The only thing that Brubaker did on Secret Avengers that interested me was bring in Prince of Orphans. Other than that I was bored the whole way through. I liked Spencer's first two issues (the only two I read) but I needed to make cuts and cuts I made.

And while I understand the criticisms of the Wonder Man plot I'm withholding comments until I read the story. We've had, what, one issue of Wonder Man's ranting without reason or plot to go with it? I'd rather wait it out and see the full story.

And as much as this flies in some of your faces... Bendis has done a good enough job to earn my patience.
 
I think I'll actually pick up SA when Ellis is on and the Thored out heroes saga is over. I liked his work in Thunderbolts, even the way he handled the actual heroes of the book. Bru can just be too much with things and bendis is just a walking conversation so I'm thinking it'll probably be the only avengers book other than academy with a chance to be like good.
 
Question, very important one too, why do all the Avengers books except Academy suck so much ass right now?

Answer: Bendis.
I've enjoyed Secret Avengers, but mosty excited for Warren Ellis trying to outcrazy Bendis' Moon Knight! :p The 2nd answer is you're not reading Millar's Ultimate Avengers, his last arc is like Ultimates 3 by him pretty much, and Jonathan Hickman will take over Ultimates in August, so yeah check it out.

I'm checking out New Avengers with #16 and #16.1 Bring on Dark Avengers and Daredevil!:word:
 
The only thing that Brubaker did on Secret Avengers that interested me was bring in Prince of Orphans. Other than that I was bored the whole way through. I liked Spencer's first two issues (the only two I read) but I needed to make cuts and cuts I made.

And while I understand the criticisms of the Wonder Man plot I'm withholding comments until I read the story. We've had, what, one issue of Wonder Man's ranting without reason or plot to go with it? I'd rather wait it out and see the full story.

And as much as this flies in some of your faces... Bendis has done a good enough job to earn my patience.

I won't tell you what not to read. All I say is, that if you buy AVENGERS and NEW AVENGERS because you genuinely enjoy them and not because of habit or "importance", then continue to do so. I read the latter for about a year longer than I should have for "importance", and I was miserable. And that was BEFORE it was $3.99. I stayed on USM longer than I should have out of habit, too.

I will caution that sometimes with some writers, a "wait to see if it gets explained/if _____ gets better" can sometimes last for years. That was what wore me down on USM. Some of the same flaws I was getting irked with around issue #30 or so continued well past issue #100. That started to happen to me with Fraction on INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, so I bailed. The lesson I have learned is that certain writers (not all), once they hit A-List, NEVER improve. The annoying tics and habits they have in their scripts month in and month out are FOREVER, and will never be fixed. The writer by then will have evolved past a point where he strives to improve himself. This includes Brubaker. I know he will continue to over-rely on WWII flashbacks in CAPTAIN AMERICA until he retires. I know he will truck out a Cap impostor story once a year, every year, forever. He is incapable of change now. Unlike Bendis or Fraction, however, I enjoy the other 80% of Brubaker's writing enough that I continue to follow him on Cap.

Chris Claremont, FYI, is the poster child for this theory. By the late 80's you could almost write a Claremont script via ad-libs, he was so predictable. He not only relied on no end of tics, details, and reoccurring themes, you could list them in a Top 20.

As for SECRET AVENGERS, I'd argue it's been plagued since the launch. Brubaker wanted it to tell a story about Steve Rogers and his pals fighting some new evil cabal. Fine. The dilemma was he over-relied on minion battles, even MORE so than in his solo hero efforts, and he wasted Nova as a guest star. I have no clue why he started the first story on Mars other than an editor wanting him to start off above "street level". The second arc with Shang Chi was more Brubaker's speed, but it ended with a non-conclusion. From there, Spencer only has a 4 issue run, which is barely a drive by. Ellis is reportedly only confirmed for 6, a slightly longer drive-by. While SA once existed as the "Brubaker Avenger title", which is fine as Bru is an A-Lister, without him, it has become a spare Avengers title which has no purpose but to fill pages and be sold - ASTONISHING AVENGERS in another name. I've read worse comics, but "meh" is no good for $3.99. If Spencer had longer, maybe he could do more. But he's tasked with writing FEAR ITSELF stories that don't matter, and is on too briefly to do anything that matters with the characters. Editorial has no clue what to do with SA without Bru, and thus they're coasting. Do I have to pay for that?

AVENGERS ACADEMY is still the best Avengers title on the racks for me. Naturally, it sells the poorest. Although to give credit, the fact that it features C-List Avengers like Tigra and Justice as well as a cast of new teenage characters as the focus, and it STILL sells well enough to possibly survive 2 full years, is a credit to it's fans and especially it's creative team.
 
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Buddy, it's the flies and the turd they're buzzing around.

To each their own. I could say the same thing about Slott's Amazing Spider-Man run (save a few issues here and there) but it's all about personal taste in the comic and it's characters.

Dread said:
I won't tell you what not to read. All I say is, that if you buy AVENGERS and NEW AVENGERS because you genuinely enjoy them and not because of habit or "importance", then continue to do so. I read the latter for about a year longer than I should have for "importance", and I was miserable. And that was BEFORE it was $3.99. I stayed on USM longer than I should have out of habit, too.

I buy New Avengers because I thoroughly enjoy it no question. I love the characters, the street level feel, and the stories (save the 1959 Avengers flashback story) and I just keep getting more and more excited at the return of Norman and the (or at least "a") Dark Avengers... along with Daredevil joining the team.

Avengers I'm a little less excited about because I don't care as much for the characters or art and I thought the first arc sucked. But the Hood/Red Hulk/Infinity Gems arc was pretty good and I really enjoyed the .1 issue with Ultron's return, preparing for next year's big story. So I'm sticking with this one out of curiousity moreso than like, habit, or importance.

I just tend to find that Bendis's quirks annoy me less than others and I've grown used to overlooking them to see the plot buried within. Sometimes it's worse than others and even I can't get past them (first issue of the Fear Itself tie-in I'm looking at you) but overall I still find I enjoy his Avengers issues.

I will caution that sometimes with some writers, a "wait to see if it gets explained/if _____ gets better" can sometimes last for years.

Trust me, I know. I'm an X-Men fan.

As for SECRET AVENGERS, I'd argue it's been plagued since the launch. Brubaker wanted it to tell a story about Steve Rogers and his pals fighting some new evil cabal. Fine. The dilemma was he over-relied on minion battles, even MORE so than in his solo hero efforts, and he wasted Nova as a guest star. I have no clue why he started the first story on Mars other than an editor wanting him to start off above "street level".

In Brubaker's defense he actually planned on having Nova involved long term. Sadly, he realized too late that the ending of Thanos Imperative negated that idea and Nova only lasted the first arc and had to exit, so we can thank DnA for that failure :(

The second arc with Shang Chi was more Brubaker's speed, but it ended with a non-conclusion.

The second arc was much better than the first but that non-conclusion absolutely kills me. I'm expecting him to pick up on it in one of his Captain America books but I don't read those so it's just a major dropped plot for me making his run on the book a waste of time. I find that if you ignore Bru's final two issues with John Steele it's a better read and feels more concluded as far as the larger plot goes. Some of the bad guys get away to cause terror another day but the good guys won and we conclude the story that began in the first arc with the resurrection and death of Shang Chi's father.

From there, Spencer only has a 4 issue run, which is barely a drive by. Ellis is reportedly only confirmed for 6, a slightly longer drive-by [....] If Spencer had longer, maybe he could do more. But he's tasked with writing FEAR ITSELF stories that don't matter, and is on too briefly to do anything that matters with the characters.

I think if Spencer were on long term I'd still be buying the book, as I enjoyed his .1 issue and the Beast-centric issue, but with only being around for 4 issues doesn't do it for me. Ellis I might skim and try out but again, with it only being 6 issues and his sketchy track record I'm not sure I'm willing to give him a shot on this title. I might change my mind if I find myself with more buying room and the issues look good or get reviews, but I doubt it.

AVENGERS ACADEMY is still the best Avengers title on the racks for me. Naturally, it sells the poorest. Although to give credit, the fact that it features C-List Avengers like Tigra and Justice as well as a cast of new teenage characters as the focus, and it STILL sells well enough to possibly survive 2 full years, is a credit to it's fans and especially it's creative team.

It was definately an interesting book and I still skim every issue on the day it comes out. What hurts it, for me anyhow, is that there's been a small influx of young hero teams lately and it's just become another book of teenagers. The Young Avengers were followed by 2 to 3 teams/generations in the Initiative, which was then followed by Avengers Academy. Add those to various Initiative state teams, the Runaways, the Young Allies, Young X-Men, and the Generation Hope kids and they just get lost in the mix.

As you and I have said before... they're just creating too man teen or new heroes and have nothing for them to do other than play cannon fodder and cameos in events. It gets to a point when people stop carring. If you're going to have up and coming heroes, DO SOMETHING WITH THEM. Make them imporant in some way other than just being there, and follow up with it. Make me care about these characters. The fading away of the Runaways and the Initiative crew and the misshandling of the Young Avengers makes me not want to get too heavily invested in Avengers Academy because I figure it won't amount to much by this time next year.

I WANT to see them succeed but I don't trust Marvel to handle yet another young team.

At least with the various generations of X-Students they're folded into the larger X-Men fold when their generation fades away. These days Cyclops, Colossus, Cannonball, Chamber, and Anole are all equal in the eyes of the X-Men. The Avengers corner can't say the same.
 
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Thats a good point. Heinberg got it right when he did that first Young Avengers story. He made that story matter and gave these new kids some weight by pitting them up against serious threats like Kang. All these new teen characters like the secret warriors and the young x-men, and the Generation Hope kids and the runaways never seem like theyre important to the MU, therefore people don't care about them.

Then again, there's always the risk of shoving these new people in readers' faces to the point where they still dont care. Even if there was a big event centering on the Runaways fighting Doctor Doom and Galactus, would be people be more interested or would they be complaining that they'd rather read about the Avengers or the X-men fighting Doom and Galactus than these new people?
 
I think the difference is that Young Avengers were the first title to branch out of the Avengers franchise (when Avengers was a single comic) during a major storyline. The Avengers were no more and these kids came in to fill the gap afte the team disbanded but before the New Avengers formed. There was some mystery toward who they were and what their connections were to the real Avengers and they were pitted against major threats from day one, such as Kang, Hyde, and Super Skrull.

They were put into a plot that really mattered in the Marvel Universe and were molded very well in only 12 issues. They became important figures of the Marvel Universe until Marvel squandered that.

The Initiative had a shot at it but that just felt like an offshoot comic, not an important title. And when they shuffled off the initial crew for more nobodies everything just kinda stopped feeling important. If they had kept the initial crew the focus it would probably have worked better for them but that wasn't really possible due to the book's premise. Avengers Academy just feels like a side project... even less than an offshoot (to me anyhow). I don't see why these guys are necessary with Young Avengers also coming out. Heck, they've not even been referenced in any of the Avenger books (Avengers, New Avengers, Secret Avengers, or Children's Crusade)... it's as if they dont' exist.
 
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