The Official Avengers Thread (Heroic Age Bendis/JRJR)

[Dread]

I buy New Avengers because I thoroughly enjoy it no question. I love the characters, the street level feel, and the stories (save the 1959 Avengers flashback story) and I just keep getting more and more excited at the return of Norman and the (or at least "a") Dark Avengers... along with Daredevil joining the team.

Avengers I'm a little less excited about because I don't care as much for the characters or art and I thought the first arc sucked. But the Hood/Red Hulk/Infinity Gems arc was pretty good and I really enjoyed the .1 issue with Ultron's return, preparing for next year's big story. So I'm sticking with this one out of curiousity moreso than like, habit, or importance.

I just tend to find that Bendis's quirks annoy me less than others and I've grown used to overlooking them to see the plot buried within. Sometimes it's worse than others and even I can't get past them (first issue of the Fear Itself tie-in I'm looking at you) but overall I still find I enjoy his Avengers issues.

Bendis' NEW AVENGERS didn't start out very well at all - in fact, issue #2 still stands as one of my least favorite issues ever. The glaring errors and the disregard for criticism of them afterward online still disgust me. But, at that point I'd liked Bendis' DAREDEVIL run and was still aboard USM so I was hoping he'd get better. And while some arcs and issues were better, I never really liked the title too much. I stayed on for 3+ years for little purpose other than how "important" the title was. And to give credit, quite a few posters on SHH would respond to my consistent hate-fest reviews with so much, but I was too bull-headed to listen and dump the book until after SECRET INVASION wrapped. The last issue that was $2.99, or close to it, was my last. But eventually I did dump the book, and man, I haven't missed it since. Come to think of it, virtually ANY title I have either hated or become apathetic for that I have abandoned, I haven't missed. I haven't missed IIM, even though I read it for years. Same with THOR, or USM, or the volume of MOON KNIGHT that I ditched before VENGEANCE OF THE MOON KNIGHT started.

Sometimes as fans we get so caught up in things, like hype or the universe or wanting to know every little detail of said universe, we sometimes can forget to take a breath and honestly assess whether we truly enjoy what we buy, especially for these prices. I can't say I am perfect at that now, but I do believe I am better at that sort of thing than I was in 2005, or 2008.

Of course, I still genuinely enjoy AMAZING SPIDER-MAN post "BIG TIME" while you lost interest, so to each their own. So long as someone genuinely likes Bendis Avenger titles, or Jeph Loeb books, or so on, buy 'em. Just as someone who's been there, buying books you don't honestly enjoy for any reason sucks, especially for $3.99.

Hell, the fact that I've stuck on SECRET AVENGERS past issue #12 shows that I'm hardly perfect at what I've just preached, either. I would have probably been justified if I'd ditched it after issues #3-#4, which I despised. Those were the worst issues of anything I'd read from Brubaker since X-MEN: DEADLY GENESIS where he killed off Banshee (one of my Top 10 favorite X-Men) for little reason other than to hype Vulcan, his new baddie. In fairness, he did rebound from there, but not to as vast a degree as I'd have liked.

In Brubaker's defense he actually planned on having Nova involved long term. Sadly, he realized too late that the ending of Thanos Imperative negated that idea and Nova only lasted the first arc and had to exit, so we can thank DnA for that failure

Or blame editorial for not knowing what one hand was doing. Given that the role of Nova in that story was to be brainwashed and then beaten by Rogers, you could have inserted just about any space-worthy hero into that role and the story would have remained similar. That said, Brubaker chose to introduce Nova to a wider audience by having him get immediately brainwashed and pitted against his team, and then owned by Rogers. THANOS IMPERATIVE had nothing to do with that narrative decision.

It's fine that Brubaker loves Steve Rogers, truly. His CAPTAIN AMERICA was the first run of that franchise I paid to read, and while I did enjoy Barnes as Cap a little more to a degree, Brubaker does write Steve very well. However, while that is awesome in a solo title, in a team book I usually expect more balance.

The second arc was much better than the first but that non-conclusion absolutely kills me. I'm expecting him to pick up on it in one of his Captain America books but I don't read those so it's just a major dropped plot for me making his run on the book a waste of time. I find that if you ignore Bru's final two issues with John Steele it's a better read and feels more concluded as far as the larger plot goes. Some of the bad guys get away to cause terror another day but the good guys won and we conclude the story that began in the first arc with the resurrection and death of Shang Chi's father.

Agreed.

That said, part of me is a little dismayed about Brubaker's major contribution there being the invention of a new "secret evil organization" in a universe that has too many to spare. Fred Van Lente made fun of how many there are in TASKMASTER, and it was brilliant. The Shadow Council is simply the latest to join the Secret Empire, or the Serpent Society, or HYDRA, or AIM (which has splinter groups like RAID), or ULTIMATUM, or the Corporation, or...

I got annoyed when the Secret Avengers would get to fight actual super-villains in every comic appearance BUT their own title. True, those consisted of Captain Barracuda and Dr. Bong, but it's still better than a bunch of nameless extras in black suits. Plus, to be fair to Gregg Horwitz, casting Capt. Barracuda as a modern day pirate like many that have plagued ships lately was a solid move for the final issue of VOTMK. This team seems more like a squad of Defenders than Avengers based on what they fight, which is unintentionally ironic since it has members who have actually been Defenders for stretches of time - Valkyrie, Beast, and Moon Knight.

I think if Spencer were on long term I'd still be buying the book, as I enjoyed his .1 issue and the Beast-centric issue, but with only being around for 4 issues doesn't do it for me. Ellis I might skim and try out but again, with it only being 6 issues and his sketchy track record I'm not sure I'm willing to give him a shot on this title. I might change my mind if I find myself with more buying room and the issues look good or get reviews, but I doubt it.

I would have been more optimistic has Spencer been the new long term writer. The dilemma is he isn't as big a name as Brubaker and Marvel wanted another big name there. Ellis' star has fallen in recent years, but he's still a name. Then...why not have Ellis come in immediately? Because he probably either needed time to write scripts, and/or he didn't want to do crossover issues. Thus, Spencer, like Gillen on THOR, was tasked with some "dirty work" (or "garbage time" as they call it in basketball). Gillen only got extra issues on THOR when Fraction & Ferry needed more time than initially expected, which was for the better for him (and us). That said, while the .1 issue was a neat take on a real story, Spencer's issues have been underwhelming. His first two got VERY preachy by the end, and his 3rd was the epitome of "meh". Even if his 4th and last issue is an A+, that only would make his "run" average out to B-, the high side of average. And I don't expect SA #15 to be anywhere near that good.

As for Ellis, the last thing I read of his was ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR, which was very hit-or-miss. I've read little positive about his ASTONISHING X-MEN run, and he has very weird ideas. But it's the editorial thing. 6 issues is little longer than 4, and it shows Marvel has no clue what to do with SA other than sell it at an inflated price with new stories inside. And I already spend enough on comics that I don't need to take part in an unplanned experiment on how many Avengers books the market can support. Say what you will of AVENGERS ACADEMY, but it at least has had a more consistent premise. 3 creative team shifts in under 2 years is not the sign of a stable, well thought out franchise title, especially one that's friggin' four bucks a pop.

It was definately an interesting book and I still skim every issue on the day it comes out. What hurts it, for me anyhow, is that there's been a small influx of young hero teams lately and it's just become another book of teenagers. The Young Avengers were followed by 2 to 3 teams/generations in the Initiative, which was then followed by Avengers Academy. Add those to various Initiative state teams, the Runaways, the Young Allies, Young X-Men, and the Generation Hope kids and they just get lost in the mix.

As you and I have said before... they're just creating too man teen or new heroes and have nothing for them to do other than play cannon fodder and cameos in events. It gets to a point when people stop carring. If you're going to have up and coming heroes, DO SOMETHING WITH THEM. Make them imporant in some way other than just being there, and follow up with it. Make me care about these characters. The fading away of the Runaways and the Initiative crew and the misshandling of the Young Avengers makes me not want to get too heavily invested in Avengers Academy because I figure it won't amount to much by this time next year.

I WANT to see them succeed but I don't trust Marvel to handle yet another young team.

In fairness, didn't AVENGERS ACADEMY debut before GENERATION HOPE did? While YOUNG ALLIES debuted at the same time, that book's sales were DOA and it was canned so fast, Marvel solicited an issue they never published. The last time I recall that happening was when X-MEN EVOLUTION, the comic based on the then-new cartoon on KID'S WB, ended at issue #9 in 2002.

I was saddened to see RUNAWAYS peter out (although after the Whedon/Ryan run I watched it from afar). It seems nobody has managed to capture the magic with them like their creators did. Still, Marvel TRIED with new creative teams. They didn't even go that far with YOUNG AVENGERS, which was odd since YA sold a lot better than RUNAWAYS did out of the gate. RUNAWAYS was always a cult book.

You are correct about the editorial mismanagement and lack of communication or coordination of a lot of these young characters. Part of me wonders if this has happened since Marvel started spitting out TEEN TITANS clones. Did the NEW MUTANTS ever seriously do anything vitally important, or did they just exist in their own merry world and only tag in, briefly, for crossovers? How about GENERATION X? Or even the NEW WARRIORS, a book that Marvel tried to desperately attach to the Spider-Man line towards the end of it's first volume? Did the NW ever defeat a big threat the "big heroes" couldn't? They didn't beat Terrax because he'd beaten any other heroes...they were just there first. Very few of the characters from the 80's and 90's generation got to "step up", thus, expecting more of the 21st century kids could be optimistic at best, for you and me. Which is a shame. Look, readers aren't stupid. They know Spider-Man is older than some of their parents. New blood never hurts.

People care about the characters if they're written consistently well, usually by one writer for a while. The problem is Marvel has bred a market in which quality doesn't sell - importance and name power do. It is very difficult to make new characters "important" because retailers and readers have become very cynical about Marvel's loyalty to them. They tug in their tail and flee at the first sign of a new franchise struggling. For all the loyalty HERC and BLACK PANTHER and MOON KNIGHT get, many other franchises get left for dead.

Still...if one ignores something they truly enjoy for pure editorial reasons, they risk becoming part of the problem. If too few people read AA, it gets canceled and then it negates all hope of them becoming "important". In fairness, Marvel has started to try to promote it - they crossed over into ASM, and had a debut issue reprinted for free in another title.

If Marvel were really bold, they'd make their newer characters like the AA key for a major crossover and all but force readers to embrace them. It has a high chance of backfire...but do does DC relaunching 52 titles this fall, but they're doing that.

At least with the various generations of X-Students they're folded into the larger X-Men fold when their generation fades away. These days Cyclops, Colossus, Cannonball, Chamber, and Anole are all equal in the eyes of the X-Men. The Avengers corner can't say the same.

You are seriously, with a straight face, telling me that Marvel considers Chamber, Anole, and Cannonball as important as Cyclops or Colossus? That's baloney. Just because the Utopia subplot has basically forced everyone who was ever marginally an X-Man to live together and all appear in group panels doesn't mean they're all equal. You will never see Marvel promote an X-MEN event that crosses over to all titles and causes some to relaunch that consists of Cyclops, Emma Frost, Wolverine, Magneto, and all the big characters down and out with the world depending on Anole, Chamber, and Rockslide in a 7 part epic for $3.99 a pop. Not happening. The X-Men universe have been a killing field for new characters. How many members of Generation X or Academy X are now dead? How many have been mutilated? How many depowered and/or forgotten? Jubilee was on TV for 5 damn seasons and Marvel basically forgot about her for YEARS.

Aside for the NEW WARRIORS, and even with them that's only Microbe and Dwayne Taylor, most non-X younger heroes are alive, just in limbo or the fringes.

Plus, the X-Men have usually taken Colossus for granted anyway. He did nothing but mope, be boring, or be ignored for years when he was killed off to end the Legacy Virus saga. Then he returns 4 years later and after one awesome beat-down of Ord (a comedy villain), he does nothing of consequence since. He does nothing but be boring, be mopey, or be "edgy" and join the bad guys. He's a good guy stuck in a franchise that only embraces jerks, monsters, and anti-heroes. Virtually every X-Man who had any sort of positive outlook had to leave the franchise for stretches of time to prosper (Beast specifically, but also Iceman and Angel; even Storm for a spell). I believe Marvel considers No Girl about as important as Colossus. He's just there to stand in back-ground panels and punch/lift something. And even THEN, it's nothing impressive. You won't see him go the distance against the Hulk like Thing does. The last time Colossus did anything that screamed "wow", it was probably INFERNO - which was the late 80's. And guess what? No writer since has remembered a key detail from that, which was Colossus being immune to black magic. That's a great detail to have, which sets him apart from other mutants and "strong guys", that has gone ignored. Now? Despite Illyana and Kitty coming back, he still remained dull or mopey. Now he'll become the Juggernaut - another turn as an "edgy" bad guy.

Then again, Cyclops has become a maniac who genuinely believes reviving Dracula to stop an army of vampires is the best idea, or saving mutantkind from being killed off forever by sticking them on an isolated island that can be ravaged in a single attack. Thus, it makes sense that some of that poor decision sense would rub off. Surely the best idea to stop Juggernaut, who is being possessed by an evil entity, is to yourself become possessed by another evil entity. Piotr's an artist, not a genius.

 

[Dread]

Thats a good point. Heinberg got it right when he did that first Young Avengers story. He made that story matter and gave these new kids some weight by pitting them up against serious threats like Kang. All these new teen characters like the secret warriors and the young x-men, and the Generation Hope kids and the runaways never seem like theyre important to the MU, therefore people don't care about them.

Then again, there's always the risk of shoving these new people in readers' faces to the point where they still dont care. Even if there was a big event centering on the Runaways fighting Doctor Doom and Galactus, would be people be more interested or would they be complaining that they'd rather read about the Avengers or the X-men fighting Doom and Galactus than these new people?

The flip side of that approach, though, is it seems unrealistic for young and inexperienced characters to defeat so big a villain. Kang was done in by a team of rookies, led by himself as a rookie. Since then, Kang has been a joke of a villain, accomplishing nothing worthwhile or dangerous. He's only still considered a major figure due to stories that were written in the last century. He didn't benefit from YOUNG AVENGERS being put on a shelf for 5 years either. Many villains - and I mean MANY villains - have served as jobbers for rookie heroes and the end result are them being seen as useless jokes. Rhino, Mr. Hyde, and the Wrecking Crew are prime examples. It's bad enough when they're beaten by their arch enemies as almost an afterthought every time - but when they lose to kids who barely know how to match their socks, much less use their powers or be heroes, it makes them look worse. You'll notice unless Rhino is with a team, nobody considers him a threat anymore. And even on said team, he's just dumb muscle. Nobody considers the Wrecking Crew dangerous or tough anymore. They're merely above nameless minions. It takes 2 pages to beat them instead of one panel.

On the other hand, unless you use larger villains, one tends to get less attention. It is a very difficult balance. I mean, imagine the attention a new hero would get if they beat Dr. Doom in issue one. Only...now Doom sucks. He's useless. He lost to a rookie. Why should I gasp in suspense when he challenges the Fantastic Four now? He lost to squirrels! That's like Thanos losing to talking animals!

In interviews, Christos Gage stated that he specifically wanted to avoid doing that in AVENGERS ACADEMY specifically because he found it unrealistic. He thought it was very improbable that a group of new teenage heroes with little experience should be able to beat large scale enemies without some sort of help. I agree with that sentiment, and it also helped play up the Academy angle as well. If the kids can beat the Sinister Six by themselves in issue #2, why the **** do they need mentors or training? YOUNG ALLIES was a teen team without mentors or training, and that tanked in half a year (sadly). That isn't to say that the kids can't get big moments in their own or other titles. They recently battled Korvac, and Psycho-Man in ASM. They're crossing over into FEAR ITSELF now. And given that the series will last to a 20th issue anyway, and probably a 24th (hopefully), part of me wonders if having the kids jolly-stomp Magneto in issue one would have helped anything.

The NEW MUTANTS have endured a lot better than GENERATION X or ACADEMY X with the X-Men, and the irony is that, yes, they appeared in old crossovers, but they never did anything important there. They did their own thing in their own adventures for much of the time, and built up an audience. Even today, their relaunch has hung on, and sold better than AA because of that (or Zeb Wells is just THAT awesome). In many ways I see AVENGERS ACADEMY as a spiritual descendant to NEW MUTANTS.

The Loners, which included characters like Darkhawk and Turbo, defeated Ultron in RUNAWAYS (vol. 2) #6. How "important" have they been since? Simply dismantling a big villain isn't the key to endurance by itself either. It helps, but not always the same way. I'd have probably preferred the AVENGERS ACADEMY cadets face Ultron instead of Korvac at the end of their first year, but I highly doubt it would have kept sales any higher. I honestly think the lack of promotion since the first issue, as common for many titles, is why sales fell to 23k. Marvel waited over a year to start promoting it again. A year is forever in marketing. The only issue since the first that was promoted was issue #7, when Pym changed his costume. Lo and behold, sales spike.

Still, the Academy and a damn lot of younger characters could benefit from a crossover and line wide event that literally forced them to step up because the adult/older characters were gone - similar to DC's WORLD WITHOUT ADULTS story that helped launch YOUNG JUSTICE in the 90's, only on a little larger scale. The dilemma is, like DC's newest stunt, the risk of backfire is very great. Too great for anyone at Marvel to do. They don't have the balls, frankly. It's easy to cling to that Avengers/X-Men/Spider-Man log until you go over the waterfall than it is to risk swimming against the current.

 

[Dread]

I think the difference is that Young Avengers were the first title to branch out of the Avengers franchise (when Avengers was a single comic) during a major storyline. The Avengers were no more and these kids came in to fill the gap afte the team disbanded but before the New Avengers formed. There was some mystery toward who they were and what their connections were to the real Avengers and they were pitted against major threats from day one, such as Kang, Hyde, and Super Skrull.

They were put into a plot that really mattered in the Marvel Universe and were molded very well in only 12 issues. They became important figures of the Marvel Universe until Marvel squandered that.

The Initiative had a shot at it but that just felt like an offshoot comic, not an important title. And when they shuffled off the initial crew for more nobodies everything just kinda stopped feeling important. If they had kept the initial crew the focus it would probably have worked better for them but that wasn't really possible due to the book's premise. Avengers Academy just feels like a side project... even less than an offshoot (to me anyhow). I don't see why these guys are necessary with Young Avengers also coming out. Heck, they've not even been referenced in any of the Avenger books (Avengers, New Avengers, Secret Avengers, or Children's Crusade)... it's as if they dont' exist.

AVENGERS ACADEMY were referenced/shown in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN and THUNDERBOLTS. And in the new THUNDERSTRIKE mini series. And FEAR ITSELF: HOME FRONT. Impressive?

You're right, YOUNG AVENGERS had a better push. Which makes it all the more pathetic that Marvel squandered it so badly. Why was Heinberg the ONLY person who could write it?

 

[JewishHobbit]

You're right, YOUNG AVENGERS had a better push. Which makes it all the more pathetic that Marvel squandered it so badly. Why was Heinberg the ONLY person who could write it?

I think the Young Avengers have had a pretty good ongoing story for years but the problem is that major aspects couldn't be allowed to move forward without Heinberg, and readers typically don't want to bounce around titles trying to follow their adventure. I'm willing to do that for the Young Avengers (and Iron Fist) but I'm sure I'm in the minority.

Post Young Avengers the plot has continued with:

Civil War

1. The team is finally adopted into the big leagues by fighting alongside Captain America and Luke Cage in Civil War.

2. The team befriends fellow teen team the Runaways.

3. Hulkling makes a friend with fellow Skrull, Xavin.

4. Stature leaves the team and joins Iron Man and reluctantly fights Captain America's side, though not her former team mates.

5. Patriot gets to know his Legacy through Bucky.

Post-Civil War

1. Stature joins the Initiative and makes new connections and rivals (Ant Man) while the rest of the team goes on the run.

2. Jonas evolves into his own character apart from the original Vision and
begins a relationship with Stature.

3. Wiccan and Speed's quest to find their mother begins.

4. The on again/off again love story between Hawkeye and Patriot begins.

5. Kate officially steps into the legacy role of Hawkeye with Clint Barton's blessings.

Secret Invasion

1. The team (minus Stature) is the original and lone defenders of New York against the Skrulls and defends to their last.

2. Stature shows up with the Initiative to save them.

3. Reunion with teen team and friends, the Runaways.

4. Stature watches as boyfriend Jonas nearly dies, and felow cadet and new friend Geldoff does die.

5. Hulkling must deal with his people's invading and his having failed them by rejecting them.

6. The team sides with every team of Avengers and other heroes in the final battle to save the world.

Dark Reign

1. Stature rejoins the team.

2. The team meets potential new recruits and possible arc-rivals in the Young Masters.

3. The team manages to defeat some of the Dark Avengers.

4. Patriot knocks Osborn on his butt.

5. Stature and Jonas are adopted into the Mighty Avengers.

6. The quest for the Scarlet Witch is reignited due to Loki.

7. Jonas helps rescue Steve Rogers from death.

Siege

1. The Young Avengers battle Loki.

2. The Young Avengers battle Osborn's forces in Siege.

3. Speed is shown developing a heart for his teammates.

4. Wiccan's respect and love for Norse Mythology is explored.

5. Stature and Jonas leave the Mighty Avengers.

Post-Siege

1. The whole team is adopted into the Avengers fold by Steve Rogers.

2. The Children Crusade begins.



Now while this is a bunch of random stuff if you put it all together in one readable plot (and cut out non-YA related and/or key stuff from events) it actually reads as an interesting ongoing tale for them. I've been working on a Young Avengers binding map for when I make a couple Young Avengers bind. I love them enough to do this. I did the same with Iron Fist post the final issue of Immortal Iron Fist and like it so I'm doing the same with Young Avengers. I pick up the old issues at Half Priced Books for cheap when I see them and it's coming together nicely.


Here's my map so far:

Vol. 1: Legacies (18)
Young Avengers 1-8 (8)
Young Avengers Special (1)
Young Avengers 9-12 (4)
New Avengers 16-20 (5)

Vol. 2: Children of War (21 issues)
Civil War 1 (New Warriors scene, Cap escape scene, Final Iron Man page) (24 pages)
Civil War 2 (Young Avengers scene) (12 pages)
Civil War: Young Avengers & Runaways 1-4 (4)
Winder Soldier: Winter Kills (1)
Civil War 4 (Stature leaving scene w/ Bill burial page) (4 pages)
Civil War 6 (Strange/Watcher – End) (12 pages)
Civil War 7 (Cloak arriving in NY – Imperius Rex) (6 pages)
Civil War 7 (Vision hand through Iron Man) (2 pages)
Civil War 7 (Iron Man “HnnK!” – Cap “That’s an order&#8221 (6 pages)
Fallen Son: Captain America (1)
Avengers The Initiative 8 (1/2) (Taskmaster “Off the bus” – End of Giant fight)
Young Avengers Presents 1-6 (6)
Secret Invasion 1 (Thunderbolts/Captain Marvel) (2 pages)
Secret Invasion 1 (The Cube) (2 pages)
Runaways/YA 1 (Beginning – Molly “Whoa&#8221 (6 pages)
Secret Invasion 2 (Young Avengers) (4 pages)
Runaways/YA 1 (Skrulls descending – “inform the commander&#8221 (4 pages)
Secret Invasion 3 (Beginning – “The Initiative is here&#8221 (14 pages)
Runaways/YA 1 (Black panel – End) (18 pages)
Runaways/YA 2 (Beginning – “Dios, this is live&#8221 (26 pages)
Secret Invasion 3 (Vision “this will not stand” – End) (6 pages)
Runaways/YA 3 (Beginning – End) (28 pages)
Secret Invasion 5 (Captain Marvel) (4 pages)
Secret Invasion 5 (Cassie wakes up – Reed “I know what we need&#8221 (14 pages)
Secret Invasion 5 (Branding waking up page) (2 pages)
Secret Invasion 6 (Captain Marvel death – As a last resort) (8 pages)
Secret Invasion 6 (Protestors – End) (16 pages)
Secret Invasion 7 (Beginning – End) (32 pages)
Secret Invasion 8 (Beginning – Dugan/Vantessa) (18 pages)
Secret Invasion 8 (Tony/Thor – Tony “What&#8221 (6 pages)

Vol. 2: The Dark Reign (around 21 issues)
Dark Reign: Young Avengers 1-5 (5)
Mighty Avengers 20-24 (4)
Mighty Avengers 27-31 (5)
Siege 1 (Beginning – End)
Siege 2 (Beginning - “Gotta get me one of these&#8221
Thunderbolts 141 (Beginning – Cho scene)
Siege 2 (Daken scene – End)
Siege 3 (Beginning – Hood arrival)
Thunderbolts 141 (Bowman – End)
Siege 3 (Speed – “Abandon Ship&#8221
Thunderbolts 142 (Beginning – Stature holding Ant-Man)
Siege 3 (Thor vs Sentry – Sentry breaking Asgard)
Thunderblts 142 (Paladin getting spear page)
Siege 3 (Fall of Asgard pages)
Thunderbolts 142 (USAgent sliding – End)
Thunderbolts 143 (Paladin shoots Nuke – “It’s Paladin&#8221
Siege: Young Avengers (Beginning – End)
Siege 3 (Thor “Father” – End)
Siege 4 (Beginning – End)
I Am An Avenger (Short YA story) (1/4)


The only thing I can think of that I left out was Captain America: Reborn, since Vision played such a minor role in that. I'm still debating on going back and somehow tieing it in but I doubt I will.

 

[Dread]

Yes, Marvel did keep the YOUNG AVENGERS in print, even if they didn't commit to a long term creative team on an ongoing series after Heinberg & Cheung finished their initial run in 2005-2006. The series was still selling well and that was the best time. Instead, they let the series drift on as a batch of annual mini's, tied into crossover events with different creative teams. While they were thrown into the thick of the action, that seemed to symbolize a lack of long term committal.

Plus, DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS was more about the new "Young Masters" than the YA themselves. In a 5 issue series, they don't even appear much in the debut issue. Out of the lot of them, only Speed has what is close to a subplot.

Plus, 2 of those annual mini's were tag-teams with the RUNAWAYS, and while fun, meant that each team had less panel time then when they're alone. The SECRET INVASION mini didn't feature all the characters, since some were busy in background panels in the main event. Also, I think SHE-HULK claimed that some of the YA who joined the SHRA were alternate dimensional impostors, save for Stature.

The dilemma with the characters is that despite being around for 6 years, some of them are still ciphers due to having no consistent, long term voice to them. CHILDREN'S CRUSADE is benefiting Wiccan mostly. Stature and Vision Jr. had MIGHTY AVENGERS to a degree. But the rest? Especially Speed? They're still fairly blank character sheets. Hulkling, besides being Wiccan's boyfriend, has done very little. Sure, they keep showing up on the fringes of big events, but...so does Gravity. I'd argue the SECRET WARRIORS likely had more of a consistent creative voice lately.

I still say the Avengers' treatment of the kids has been hypocritical at best. First, the adult Avengers demand that they quit because they're kids. Then they accept them merely to exploit them as canon fodder for a war. Then after the SHRA is passed, the kids are forced to either betray each other, retire, or be arrested. Then in time for SIEGE, they're once again drafted as canon fodder. Now in CHILDREN'S CRUSADE, the Avengers see them as threats, and Wolverine seems to look forward to gutting Wiccan. In contrast, the AVENGERS ACADEMY kids have benefited from a more consistent voice. Sure, the adult Avengers withheld the fact that the cadets were recruited not because they were the best, but because they were the most screwed up. But, Reptil understands why it was done (and sees the Avengers' fears coming true), while Striker almost believes the Avengers deliberately allowed them to peak at files. At least I get the feeling that Pym and Tigra genuinely care if those kids live or die. The Avengers never seemed to care that much about the Young Avengers. Or the New Warriors before them.

At least the consistently poor ability to relate to teenagers goes back. Steve Rogers used to brood about losing Bucky in WWII, and used that as justification to not accept Rick Jones as his sidekick. So, Rick decides to go hang around the more dangerous Hulk. Way to go, Steve.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yes, Marvel did keep the YOUNG AVENGERS in print, even if they didn't commit to a long term creative team on an ongoing series after Heinberg & Cheung finished their initial run in 2005-2006. The series was still selling well and that was the best time. Instead, they let the series drift on as a batch of annual mini's, tied into crossover events with different creative teams. While they were thrown into the thick of the action, that seemed to symbolize a lack of long term committal.

Plus, DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS was more about the new "Young Masters" than the YA themselves. In a 5 issue series, they don't even appear much in the debut issue. Out of the lot of them, only Speed has what is close to a subplot.

Plus, 2 of those annual mini's were tag-teams with the RUNAWAYS, and while fun, meant that each team had less panel time then when they're alone. The SECRET INVASION mini didn't feature all the characters, since some were busy in background panels in the main event. Also, I think SHE-HULK claimed that some of the YA who joined the SHRA were alternate dimensional impostors, save for Stature.

The dilemma with the characters is that despite being around for 6 years, some of them are still ciphers due to having no consistent, long term voice to them. CHILDREN'S CRUSADE is benefiting Wiccan mostly. Stature and Vision Jr. had MIGHTY AVENGERS to a degree. But the rest? Especially Speed? They're still fairly blank character sheets. Hulkling, besides being Wiccan's boyfriend, has done very little. Sure, they keep showing up on the fringes of big events, but...so does Gravity. I'd argue the SECRET WARRIORS likely had more of a consistent creative voice lately.

I still say the Avengers' treatment of the kids has been hypocritical at best. First, the adult Avengers demand that they quit because they're kids. Then they accept them merely to exploit them as canon fodder for a war. Then after the SHRA is passed, the kids are forced to either betray each other, retire, or be arrested. Then in time for SIEGE, they're once again drafted as canon fodder. Now in CHILDREN'S CRUSADE, the Avengers see them as threats, and Wolverine seems to look forward to gutting Wiccan. In contrast, the AVENGERS ACADEMY kids have benefited from a more consistent voice. Sure, the adult Avengers withheld the fact that the cadets were recruited not because they were the best, but because they were the most screwed up. But, Reptil understands why it was done (and sees the Avengers' fears coming true), while Striker almost believes the Avengers deliberately allowed them to peak at files. At least I get the feeling that Pym and Tigra genuinely care if those kids live or die. The Avengers never seemed to care that much about the Young Avengers. Or the New Warriors before them.

At least the consistently poor ability to relate to teenagers goes back. Steve Rogers used to brood about losing Bucky in WWII, and used that as justification to not accept Rick Jones as his sidekick. So, Rick decides to go hang around the more dangerous Hulk. Way to go, Steve.

You mean that guy who risked his life to save Rick and often always kept him safe from various monsters and rogue soldiers ?

 

[Dread]

You mean that guy who risked his life to save Rick and often always kept him safe from various monsters and rogue soldiers ?

The Hulk could also frequently lose control of himself and cause a lot of destruction.

Plus, how'd Rick end up? Transformed into the monstrous A-Bomb. Good work, Cap, on convincing him to avoid that sort of thing.

And then there was the Hotline, which Cap ran in the 90's that included wanna-be heroes Free Spirit and Jack Flag. He abandoned both after HEROES RETURN and while the former has faded into limbo, the latter remained active, got crippled by Bullseye, and sent to 42 to rot - he wasn't freed during CIVIL WAR #7 like many heroes were. Only a chance encounter with Star-Lord saved him.

Steve Rogers - great with soldiers, terrific with crises, terrible with teenagers.

 

[Roose Bolton]

eh Rick turning into A-bomb would have happened anyways, if I'm not mistaken the Leader and co only experimented on him because he survived the original gamma bomb, not because of his friendship to Banner.
You do have a point about the hotline though....

 

[Dread]

And let's not forget Jack Monroe, the original Nomad, who Rogers "lost track of" who steadily went insane before being assassinated by Winter Soldier.

And while Steve Rogers did genuinely care about Rikki Barnes (the Bucky from the Heroes Reborn universe), he didn't care enough to offer her a place to stay so she could move out of an abandoned warehouse. Onslaught later seemingly absorbed her, and she's dead, too.

Say what you will about Batman's sidekicks, they tend to survive.

Again, Cap's an awesome, terrific hero and soldier, and all around guy...he just can't hack it with teenagers.

 

[bored]

Is it that Batman's sidekicks survive, or is it that when they try and actually die, some crazy emo type with superstrength punches the walls of reality and revives them?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Batman only lost one sidekick who came back to life through the Emoboy of our universe punching the crystal walls of reality in another dimension.

 

[Anubis]

Spoiler "died" too. She was a Robin for a couple of months.

 

[runawayboulder]

CBR put up a preview for New Avengers Annual #1 which carries on the Wonder-Man plot.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=9447

 

[runawayboulder]

I hate the Wonder-Man story, it makes no sense whatsoever. The art looks terrific though. I don't know if I'm getting this.

 

[bored]

Odd little line-up. Not much in the way of actual former Avengers. You have Anti-Venom, who badly wants to be seen as a legit hero now, and Century, who I didn't even realize was still alive.

I can understand Goliath, though, since he's got to have issues with the team that features the guy who built a robot which killed his uncle. And the guy said robot was designed after.

 

[runawayboulder]

I don't understand why D-Man is there. I know most of the Avengers hated his smelly ass but I thought never in a million years he'd go against Steve Rogers. Steve watched his back for ages and pulled strings left and right to help him during the Gruenwald era. I guess Bendis never read that run either....

 

[runawayboulder]

I remember now, D-Man was interviewed as a potential nanny for Cage's baby and was crying and asking if Cap ever mentioned him, lol. I guess Steve did turn his back on him. My apologies to Bendis....he's just sooooo easy to bash.

I still don't get Simon though. He seems to be forgetting that he was in love with Wanda but yet it's the Avengers fault for not dealing with her.....c'mon man, where the hell were you?

 

[The Englishman]

Why cant we see Captain Britain in an Avengers title, i thought Steve Rogers made him a member? I want to see Captain Britain!!

 

[runawayboulder]

He's too busy dealing with riots.....

 

[Drz]

I'm so ready for this! My favourite Bendis-Avengers team making a comeback!

 

[steintym]

Cool! The Dark Avengers were awesome. Glad to see they're making a return.

 

[moraldeficiency]

That looks like nighthawk in the back right.

 

[Anubis]

Why the f**k is Osborne not rotting away in prison?

 

[moraldeficiency]

He got out, then allowed himself to be reclaimed after he had all the other prisoners but one killed to preserve their integrity. The one he allowed out is currently his new prison warden. I don't think it'll be too difficult. It was actually a really good story.

 

[Panthro]

Why the f**k is Osborne not rotting away in prison?

Because the American legal system sucks.