The Official Flash thread

[Tron Bonne]

Barry's book will probably also be better. What are they gonna do with Wally that they haven't already done at this point? Unless they ditch the wife and kids, Wally's kinda been backed into a corner. You really want to read Incredibles again?

Barry was around a little longer than Wally so what are they going to do with him that's not really been done already? Most of these characters have been around for decades now so you can easily make the argument that the original idea well is fairly dry for any of them without rectons.

And, as far as the whole 'Incredibles' arguments go, it's not as if Wally's family has to be featured and focused on in every single issue and/or arc. I don't think you should flat out ignore or drop them and there can be times when they do flesh out more, but it's not like there's some requirement to always like that. However, it seems comic writers struggle with that concept so I can't really blame fans for that mindset I guess

 

[Hush]

MMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNN **** Barry Allen!

 

[Flash Facts]

Barry has a wife and kids too

 

[BrianWilly]

What are they gonna do with Wally that they haven't already done at this point? Unless they ditch the wife and kids, Wally's kinda been backed into a corner.

Your suggestion for giving Wally material that hasn't "already been done at this point" is to...give him the exact same status quo that he's had up until 2006?

In any case, you could make this exact same "There's no more stories to tell" claim against Barry, as well as every single comic book character that has ever existed. Are you seriously going to claim that, so far, Barry and his "Rebirth" has been so fresh and original an idea as to be completely unlike anything that's ever come before it? I'm one of the few people here who thought Barry coming back might not be a bad thing, but I'm not going to pretend it's been some kind of revolutionary roller coaster ride so far.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Barry has a wife and kids too

He does? I know he's married but I didn't know he had kids too

 

[BrianWilly]

Well, he is Bart's grandfather. His kids are still in the future where they grew up, as far as I remember.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Ah, I was thinking Bart was his nephew.

 

[WompuM]

Nope, Wally is his nephew.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Oh Okay, that's probably were I got it mixed up.

 

[WompuM]

You see, Barry Allen married Iris West, sister of Wally West's father. Though Bart's backstory is pretty damn confusing. All you need to know, that if you trace his geneology back far enough, it turns out his great great great whatever maternal grandfather, is actually Barry Allen's twin brother, so Bart is incest.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Yes, I certainly did not know that part. I actually don't know much about Bart outside he was related to Barry in some way

 

[Oddzball]

Barry has a wife and kids too

Not really. The kids won't be born for 900 and something years. And Iris is in her sixties at the current time as Bart's grandmother.

 

[Oddzball]

You see, Barry Allen married Iris West, sister of Wally West's father. Though Bart's backstory is pretty damn confusing. All you need to know, that if you trace his geneology back far enough, it turns out his great great great whatever maternal grandfather, is actually Barry Allen's twin brother, so Bart is incest.

Not quite. After a few generations and cousin spread it stops being incest.

Or put it this way; Everyone here has two bio parents. Guaanteed. Ad they have two parents. you get the drift. The formula is 2 to the generation level ancestors. 2 to the zero is one btw and thus you're on the formula. 1 generatin 2 ancestors 2 generations 4 etc.

40 generations @ 25 years per generation is 1000 years. So 1000 years ago you hve 2 to the 40th ancestors.

That's well over a Trillion. There weren't a trillion people alive 1000 years ago.

You (and i and everyone else) HAS to have the same people occupying lots of ancestral positions. No other way to do it.

So no more incest for Bart than for you or me.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he wasn't being completely serious with that statement

 

[Flash Facts]

Not really. The kids won't be born for 900 and something years. And Iris is in her sixties at the current time as Bart's grandmother.

That doesn't make sense. How could she be a gandmother without having childern. Yes the kids were born in a different time period but from both Barry and Iris's point of reference they have already had children.

Iris should be at least 34 years older from the last time she saw Barry.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

She doesn't look it, though. From what I remember of Rebirth #1, she looked like she was back to Barry's age.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Barry was around a little longer than Wally so what are they going to do with him that's not really been done already?

Ummm.....give him some modern characterization? How about doing stories that actually delve heavily into forensics, now that everyone knows what that is and because there have been so many advancements in technology in that area?

I see your point though, but Barry at this time in comics is more of a "blank slate" than Wally.

Most of these characters have been around for decades now so you can easily make the argument that the original idea well is fairly dry for any of them without rectons.

True, but even the most devoted Wally fan has got to admit that he's been sort of backed into a corner over that past several years.

And, as far as the whole 'Incredibles' arguments go, it's not as if Wally's family has to be featured and focused on in every single issue and/or arc. I don't think you should flat out ignore or drop them and there can be times when they do flesh out more, but it's not like there's some requirement to always like that. However, it seems comic writers struggle with that concept so I can't really blame fans for that mindset I guess

Well, I know you guys won't like this, but this is what I'd do with the kids: I'd have Jai turn to the dark side (the seeds have even already been planted for that, look at Peyer's run I think it is) and become a major villain as he gets older. The kids didn't decide to be heroes like Wally and Barry and even Bart, they were raised in a hero family, and I'd have Jai rebel and eventually kill his sister (gasp!). That would be hella interesting and would put Wally through some tough times, plus it gets rid of the bratty speed twins or whatever the hell they're calling them these days. I would also consider giving Wally his public identity back some way. Keep him married to Linda though. I like that all the Flashes are happily married.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm a pretty devoted Wally fan and I feel no compunction to admit that he's been backed into a corner. I feel like he caught a bad break because of the ridiculous circus that his and the other Flashes' recent history devolved into between Infinite Crisis and Final Crisis, and I feel like writers don't particularly know what to do with his new family dynamic, but it's not like the character is somehow tainted because he has kids now.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Ummm.....give him some modern characterization? How about doing stories that actually delve heavily into forensics, now that everyone knows what that is and because there have been so many advancements in technology in that area?

By 'modern characterization' I'm assuming you mean what Johns is doing now. I think that fits in the recton area, which is basically most anyone can do to tell 'new' stories with these characters.

I'm not a Barry Allen scholar, but I'm sure he's used that position to solve crimes before. Yes, of course forensics have come a long way since Barry died, but it would still be a variation or expansion, if you will, of stories that's been told before.

Original, unique and new story-wise is just as dried out for Barry as it is for Wally.

I see your point though, but Barry at this time in comics is more of a "blank slate" than Wally.

Absolutely, but it's an unfair comparison. Barry has been basically removed from continuity for roughly 25 years. An entire generation of readers have grown up with either knowing nothing about Barry or just being there long enough to see him die.

True, but even the most devoted Wally fan has got to admit that he's been sort of backed into a corner over that past several years.

I agree with Corp on this. Wally has only been backed into a corner because of the writers, not because of the character. Like I said, being married and having a family dynamic doesn't have to be a death wish for a character. Though as I said I blame more the writers, a good portion of them seem to struggle so it's only natural that fans pick up on that as well

 

[Themanofbat]

Barry Allen was THE Flash when I grew up... and then he died in early 1986...

That's it for me...

 

[Kevin Smith]

By 'modern characterization' I'm assuming you mean what Johns is doing now. I think that fits in the recton area, which is basically most anyone can do to tell 'new' stories with these characters.

It isn't a retcon. This isn't the Silver Age Barry Allen, this is the Post Crisis Barry Allen. Just like Post Crisis Superman and Wally West and Hal Jordan.

I'm not a Barry Allen scholar, but I'm sure he's used that position to solve crimes before. Yes, of course forensics have come a long way since Barry died, but it would still be a variation or expansion, if you will, of stories that's been told before.

Yes, but people did not know how to really write guys in forensics in the silver age. Now because of shows like CSI and the forensics pop culture explosion everyone knows what that is and how to write that stuff.

Original, unique and new story-wise is just as dried out for Barry as it is for Wally.

I disagree. I think at this point it is harder to tell new Wally stories than Barry stories. Wally's had the best of everything, he's had the silver age stuff and the character driven modern age stories.....and now he's hit a wall. It isn't the character's fault just like back in '86 it wasn't Barry's fault either. It was just due to bad writers and editorial decisions.

Absolutely, but it's an unfair comparison. Barry has been basically removed from continuity for roughly 25 years. An entire generation of readers have grown up with either knowing nothing about Barry or just being there long enough to see him die.

Right. Well for that reason he needs to be properly characterized for today's audience. Crisis isn't even relevant anymore so it's time they brought The Flash back. t:

I agree with Corp on this. Wally has only been backed into a corner because of the writers, not because of the character. Like I said, being married and having a family dynamic doesn't have to be a death wish for a character. Though as I said I blame more the writers, a good portion of them seem to struggle so it's only natural that fans pick up on that as well

Yep, I agree. It's more the writers than the character they've created.

 

[Mr. Green]

Barry was around a little longer than Wally so what are they going to do with him that's not really been done already? Most of these characters have been around for decades now so you can easily make the argument that the original idea well is fairly dry for any of them without rectons.

Yeah, but Barry was around when comics sucked. I mean, let's face it, comics now, especially by a creative team like Geoff Johns and Van Sciver, are far superior in just about every way that matters than crappy comics from a long time ago.

I've been thinking about this a good bit and as much as I like Wally, I think Geoff Johns had a point when he talked about how Barry Allen never had an "Emerald Dawn" or "Batman Year One" or "Man of Steel".

Meanwhile, Wally had an awesome run by not only Mark Waid but Geoff Johns as well so I think that what there doing is going to be pretty cool.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Yeah, but Barry was around when comics sucked. I mean, let's face it, comics now, especially by a creative team like Geoff Johns and Van Sciver, are far superior in just about every way that matters than crappy comics from a long time ago.

I've been thinking about this a good bit and as much as I like Wally, I think Geoff Johns had a point when he talked about how Barry Allen never had an "Emerald Dawn" or "Batman Year One" or "Man of Steel".

Meanwhile, Wally had an awesome run by not only Mark Waid but Geoff Johns as well so I think that what there doing is going to be pretty cool.

That's exactly what I'm saying! They're finally doing a Post Crisis Barry Allen, and I'm glad.

 

[Tron Bonne]

It isn't a retcon. This isn't the Silver Age Barry Allen, this is the Post Crisis Barry Allen. Just like Post Crisis Superman and Wally West and Hal Jordan.

Fair enough, but it's still in that area. Post-Crisis was essentially a reboot which is just another word for big ass recton.

Yes, but people did not know how to really write guys in forensics in the silver age. Now because of shows like CSI and the forensics pop culture explosion everyone knows what that is and how to write that stuff.

That's not the point I'm trying to convey. Even if they got more depth it's not a new thing, it's just an expansion of an old idea.

I disagree. I think at this point it is harder to tell new Wally stories than Barry stories. Wally's had the best of everything, he's had the silver age stuff and the character driven modern age stories.....and now he's hit a wall. It isn't the character's fault just like back in '86 it wasn't Barry's fault either. It was just due to bad writers and editorial decisions.

I think you're associating 'new' with good. You can tell solid, good stories without being new. Unless you really get what I mean, and if that's the case, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Right. Well for that reason he needs to be properly characterized for today's audience. Crisis isn't even relevant anymore so it's time they brought The Flash back. t:

The Flash has been here. Barry is no more The Flash than Wally or Jay. And his death is still the single greatest death in comic history and he was replaced correctly in my opinion. I'll never submit to the idea that Barry Allen should return and I don't care what you, Johns, Dido or anybody else tells me to the contrary.

Yeah, but Barry was around when comics sucked. I mean, let's face it, comics now, especially by a creative team like Geoff Johns and Van Sciver, are far superior in just about every way that matters than crappy comics from a long time ago.

Not the point once again. I'm not talking about whether it's good or not, I'm talking about the concept of new ideas. You can tell good stories without them being original ideas. A good example was Dini's recent run on Detective Comics. Nothing there was new, or radical or character shattering, but it was still good.

Not that there aren't any new ideas to tell with Barry or anything, but there's pretty few (That goes for most of these characters at this stage of their existence). You can tell variations or expansions of original ideas with these character, but that doesn't make them new.

I've been thinking about this a good bit and as much as I like Wally, I think Geoff Johns had a point when he talked about how Barry Allen never had an "Emerald Dawn" or "Batman Year One" or "Man of Steel".

Meanwhile, Wally had an awesome run by not only Mark Waid but Geoff Johns as well so I think that what there doing is going to be pretty cool.[/quote]

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinions. If you and others have no qualms with his return that's fine. I, however, stay with the position I've had from the beginning

 

[Kevin Smith]

Fair enough, but it's still in that area. Post-Crisis was essentially a reboot which is just another word for big ass recton.

They're close, but retcon means something either did or did not happen and that they're continuing a story, not starting over completely. Rebooting means restarting completely, and doing new, unconnected stories.

I think you're associating 'new' with good. You can tell solid, good stories without being new. Unless you really get what I mean, and if that's the case, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree, not everything new equals good. Big part of why I prefer Barry's classic Rogues to the crappy ones they tried to give Wally.

The Flash has been here.

...and now he's back. t:

Barry is no more The Flash than Wally or Jay.

That's how you may see it and how DC will try to sell it but the truth is, he is more The Flash than anyone else. Sorry, but it's true. The iconicism is all Barry's, his time as Flash still dwarfs everone else's, if there's anyone who deserves to be called The Flash then it's definitely Barry.

And his death is still the single greatest death in comic history and he was replaced correctly in my opinion. I'll never submit to the idea that Barry Allen should return and I don't care what you, Johns, Dido or anybody else tells me to the contrary.

I agree with you in regard to the death and replacement being the best in comics history, but I do not think he needs to stay dead and am glad that both he and Hal have returned. They are too good to stay dead and have a large and dedicated following. As long as there are still good stories to tell and a market for those characters then there isn't any reason why any character should stay dead.