The Official Flash Thread

[Webhead2006]

Yea i would hate for them to just combine wally/barry together just to please most people. I dont see why they cant work them both being in their. Or they can just go straight out barry, then go into wally. I said it before this is an issue with these characters who have had multiple guys under the mask, which guy has the rights to be used first or at all.

 

[Young Superman]

Chris Evans IS The Flash

 

[Timstuff]

Actually, he IS Johnny Storm, at least until Fox reboots Fantastic 4. Currently, no one is The Flash.

 

[Young Superman]

My top two pickd for Flash are Scott Porter and Chris Evans.

 

[Timstuff]

I personally don't see a Barry Allen Flash film being boring at all. When was the last time you saw a movie about a cop that was a superhero, let alone a CSI cop?

Basically, it's "crime fighter by day, better crime fighter by night." How creative!

That's another thing that I prefer about Wally over Barry-- Barry was already working to stop crime long before he got his superpowers, so becoming the Flash wasn't really as transformational for his character as it is for a lot of other superheroes. He simply became more effective at something he was already doing, and we don't really get the sense that becoming The Flash was his moment of self actualization. He already knew he was put on earth to be a crime fighter, and he was already fighting crime before he became The Flash.

With Wally on the other hand, he's more of an everyman. Gaining superpowers changed him in a much more profound way than Barry, because suddenly he had a sense of purpose. He wasn't put on earth to simply admire the people who kept the city free of crime, but to himself prevent crime. He became Barry's sidekick and learned the tricks of the trade under his wing, but then he ended up being put out to pasture when being a sidekick was no longer availible to him (the reason for why may be played with in the movie, but the point still remains). Then, his mentor, his uncle-- his HERO dies, and suddenly everything changes. Wally, still grieving over Barry, decides to re-emerge from sidekick retirement, and become the hero that the world needs. He's just a college kid who used to be a sidekick, but now the city is looking to him to be a superhero-- to replace his uncle for them.

This notion of stepping out from his mentor's shadow, and truly graduating from sidekick to superhero, is something that I think the audience would identify with, and they're love it. With a Barry origin film-- well, a cop gets super powers, and decides to essentially be a more efficient cop. Amidst all the other superhero flicks, it'd kind up end up being white noise, but with Wally on the other hand, he's got a truly unique origin that would allow his film to stand out as one of the greats of the genre.

 

[ChickenScratch]

That's another thing that I prefer about Wally over Barry-- Barry was already working to stop crime long before he got his superpowers, so becoming the Flash wasn't really as transformational for his character as it is for a lot of other superheroes. He simply became more effective at something he was already doing, and we don't really get the sense that becoming The Flash was his moment of self actualization. He already knew he was put on earth to be a crime fighter, and he was already fighting crime before he became The Flash.

That's what I love about Barry. He's a guy who is who he is. Suddenly having powers does not absolutely mean you are gonna be a hero or villain, you could just zip around your house. The story about the person getting powers and changing themselves down to the core of their being never rang true to me.

Barry's a good guy, with or without powers. Just like Hal Jordan's a genuinely good, heroic person without the powers, or Clarke without powers would still be a force for good in some other capacity.

 

[Timstuff]

That may be what you like about Barry, but for me it's the reason I think he's boring. A superhero whose secret identity is a copy just seems redundant to me. It's like, sure, it's different, but why is it interesting? A story about someone who has superpowers but never becomes a superhero or villain, and as you suggested simply fools around with his powers at home would also be different, but that doesn't mean it will keep my attention.

Part of what makes superheroes' origins interesting is that we get to see the process of self actualization. With Barry though, his self actualization happened long before he became the flash. He wanted to fight crime, and had already found the medium through which he wanted to do it. Like I said, adding superpowers to that, in terms of storytelling is redundant. Back in the silver age kids weren't really reading too deeply into their comics so it didn't really matter, but in the 80's, when comics started reaching new levels of depth, it was decided that the Barry Allen flash had gone as far as he could, and that Wally had a lot more potential for the kinds of stories that people wanted to tell at the time. Hence, they killed off Barry, and replaced him with Wally, the everyman who found self actualization through becoming The Flash, not prior to it. He was an everyman with a calling for something greater, and he's managed to stick with people for over 20 years. It really is a shame that DC and Johns are currently trying to push him out of the way of Barry Allen's ill-concieved return, because I think that they are forgetting why they chose to kill Barry in the first place, and why he stayed dead for 20+ years instead of just coming back a year later like 95% of "dead" characters do.

So basically, I don't think that Barry's dual life was a particularly compelling one. Sure, he can do more to stop crime once he gets powers, but it does not really mark a turning point for his character. He already knew what he wanted to do in life, and getting powers only gave him more ways to do what he was already doing. I think that paints a pretty adequate picture of why Barry is seen as having less room for depth than Wally, in that his character is pretty much actualized before he even dons the suit, rather than wathcing a long and drawn out actualization process that starts with choosing to become a hero and continuing well into the career. Having said that, I think Barry would fill the role of being a supporting character in Wally's origin story much better than he would as the protagonist of his own origin film.

 

[Webhead2006]

Well like i said i am sure they can probably figure out something to please both wally and barry fans. I said it before i an not a fan really of either, since i dont read flash, and the only flashs i have seen in animation/live action have been combinations of traits of barry and wally, or in the case bart too for smallville. Perferably i still would like to start off with barry, include wally like i mentioned before and figure out from there what they want to do.

 

[Timstuff]

I think that a good structure for a Flash movie would be as follows:

Prologue: Wally West hangs up his Kid Flash costume forever
Act 1: the fall of Barry Allen
Act 2: Wally comes out of retirement and reluctantly becomes the new Flash
Act 3: Wally realizes his potential, and defeats the villain. He fully embraces his role as The Flash.

I'd say we'd probably get a good chunk of the movie with Barry as The Flash, since he'd be around for the prologue and first act, as well as reappearing via flashbacks throughout the film (I mean, it's The Flash, so it should have flashbacks, lol). They can do respect to Barry while simultaneously making a story that sets up Wally as the hero. It'd be an origin film in that it shows how Wally West becomes The Flash, but it'd be unique in that he is picking up the mantle of a prior hero. They could also have a flashback to the accident that gave Wally his powers, which for believability's sake should probably be the same accident that gave Barry his, although it'd be brief and to the point, rather than chronologically taking us through the same "mortal man to costumed superhuman" routine that many SH flicks do.

 

[Evil Twin]

With Wally on the other hand, he's more of an everyman.

Disagree completely. Wally's been a superhero since like age 14. Barry Allen had a normal life, a schooling, a job, hobbies, and interests. You're misusing the word "everyman".

With Barry Allen superspeed really is a gift and wish fulfillment. It's not a source of conflict with him. With Wally, the legacy and superspeed have their drawbacks and burdens. That's the primary difference between the two, along with Wally having more of a motormouth, not any sort of "everyman" quality.

Personally, I don't think it's really a problem as far as a set of movies goes. A first movie, with Barry Allen, is likely to have the character arc of transition from ordinary man to hero. The second one might have something to do with what does fame, they build museums to the guy, and scrutiny do to an ordinary person. And how does that complicate his relationship with Iris? I could easily see the third having Wally and Prof. Zoom and exploring the legacy aspects of Barry, good and bad.

I also have to ask, are people wanting too much soulsearching here? What's wrong with a likable protagonist, with confidence and a sense of humor, having exciting, fast paced adventures? Spider-Man is one way to do action adventure, but it's not the only way. Indiana Jones and James Bond have traditionally had more focus on plot and action than on the character being on a significant arc.

 

[Timstuff]

Disagree completely. Wally's been a superhero since like age 14. Barry Allen had a normal life, a schooling, a job, hobbies, and interests. You're misusing the word "everyman".

With Barry Allen superspeed really is a gift and wish fulfillment.

You're saying that getting the powers of your favorite super hero and getting to become his sidekick isn't wish fulfillment? Also, I'd contend that Wally is more of an everyman than Barry. Barry is a police forensic scientist, which thanks to shows like CSI carries about it a mystique that people are fascinated with like it's some kind of magic. He was already a "crime fighter" before becoming a super hero, so becoming a superhero on top of already having a cool police job is somewhat redundant.

With Wally, on the other hand, he's often out of work and has often had to change professions. It doesn't matter that he's had superpowers since he was a little kid, because it hasn't kept him from facing the same struggles that we all do in life. In a lot of ways, Wally West is the Peter Parker of the DC Universe. He's a likeable, funny guy who's struggling to get by like we all are, while also fighting crime as a superhero-- while also carrying the weight of a legacy on his shoulders, which is something that very few heroes have to deal with.

It's not a source of conflict with him. With Wally, the legacy and superspeed have their drawbacks and burdens. That's the primary difference between the two, along with Wally having more of a motormouth, not any sort of "everyman" quality.

Stories are about conflict. If Barry doesn't feel conflicted at all about his powers, then it's all the more reason to go with Wally since in terms of storytelling internal conflict > external conflict. Also, Wally is funnier and more talkative than Barry, which I think is an asset to his character. Barry is a lot more straightforward in his personality, which IMO would make for a less interesting character on screen.

Personally, I don't think it's really a problem as far as a set of movies goes. A first movie, with Barry Allen, is likely to have the character arc of transition from ordinary man to hero.

Which Fantastic 4 has already proven is getting stale. With Barry Allen, it'd be the same shtick we saw in Spider-Man of "he gets powers, learns how to use them, and designs a costume, and becomes a super hero." At least with Green Lantern it has the exciting hook of him getting to go into space and be trained by an elite corp of inter galactic guardians. If they want to draw people in they need a less generic origin, and there's nothing generic about a superhero dying and his sidekick taking his place, since it's never been done in a movie before.

Look at these two loglines, and tell me which is more interesting:

A forensics scientist gets super speed powers, and decides to become a masked crime fighter to stop a crazed villain threatening his city.

A sidekick must take up the mantle of his dead Superhero mentor, and defend his city from a crazed villain.

One of these, with only a little modification sounds extremely generic, wheras the other has a unique twist that makes it high concept. High concept sells, and it gets people excited enough to go see a movie. Barry Allen's only hook is that he's already fighting crime before getting his powers, and frankly I think that's a pretty boring one.

I also have to ask, are people wanting too much soulsearching here? What's wrong with a likable protagonist, with confidence and a sense of humor, having exciting, fast paced adventures? Spider-Man is one way to do action adventure, but it's not the only way. Indiana Jones and James Bond have traditionally had more focus on plot and action than on the character being on a significant arc.

Superheroes are a great opportunity to explore the human condition, which is why they do it so often. There are superhero movies out there like Fantastic 4 which focus more on action than studying the characters, but they usually get poorer reception because they're just shallow entertainment.

 

[protocida]

Barry is a man motivated by a tragedy. When he was 10, his mother was murdered in her own house and his father was accused of commiting the crime and send to jail. Barry lived his whole live with one objetive in mind: Proving his father's innocence and discovering who killed his mother. He became a forensic scientist because of that. He struggled with the fear, the doubt and the despair. He faced all the repercussions of being too slown to help his father. Too slown to help his mother. Too slown to make up with anyone who he held dear. Too slown to prevent crimes. Too slown to do anything useful, until a lightning changes his life. And he is now fast enough to do what he failed to do for his whole life. Now, he can help the entire world in minutes. Now, he's the fastest man alive. And he'll make up for his past mistakes. He HAS range.

 

[Timstuff]

I still don't see the hook. He's not the only superhero motivated by tragedy in the least. It sounds great the way you describe it, if you don't keep in mind that it's been done with a lot of other superheroes with a few changes here and there.

Wally, on the other hand, stands out as someone who graduated from sidekick to full-fledged superhero. His motivation for fighting crime isn't just a simple tragedy, but rather that his hero in life literally was a superhero, and Wally had the means of following in his footsteps. Barry Allen was more of a father figure to Wally than his birth father was, and when Barry died, Wally decided to keep the Flash legacy going. It was a tragedy that ultimately caused Wally to put on the Flash costume (the death of Barry Allen), but it was having Barry as a mentor that gave him the inspired him to be a hero. He's not just a guy out seeking justice because of something bad that happened to him-- he's doing it because the man he admired most in life set an example for him to strive for, and Barry's death is what caused Wally to act on what Barry had instilled in him as a mentor.

 

[Flash Facts]

That is Barry's retconed origin. Do really really think that is the one they would use? It might not even stick in the comics if some peoples predictions are right. Also isn't that kinda admitting the Barry's original origin was boring?

 

[protocida]

It's the official origin now. So, it's the one they'll use in the movie, if they choose Barry (Especially with Johns and co-writer/producer).

 

[Evil Twin]

You're saying that getting the powers of your favorite super hero and getting to become his sidekick isn't wish fulfillment? Also, I'd contend that Wally is more of an everyman than Barry. Barry is a police forensic scientist, which thanks to shows like CSI carries about it a mystique that people are fascinated with like it's some kind of magic. He was already a "crime fighter" before becoming a super hero, so becoming a superhero on top of already having a cool police job is somewhat redundant.

With Wally, on the other hand, he's often out of work and has often had to change professions.

If anything, CSI and the like have served to demystify forensic scientists. They're in our homes week after week. We see the work they do as a combination of hard work and some smarts, not magic. It's a job worked by people with flaws.

Wally, over the last 30 years, has basically been a student, a millionaire (thanks to winning the lottery), and a mechanic. He doesn't change jobs often. In fact, his stories rarely revolve around his jobs at all. He's not even a humble, "slow" guy.

I agree that Wally has some wish fulfillment aspects to his character as well. But, unlike Barry, it's been peppered with some of the drawbacks. Like the expectation of actually living up to the legacy. And some of the downsides of superspeed. But, Wally's basically been Barry for the last 15 years or so, just with an Asian reporter girlfriend/wife and stories revolving around him discovering aspects of his speed like the "speed force", hopping through time and homing in on the love of his life, and having a villain directly attack his life and wife in order to "make him better". All stories that could have been told with Barry Allen.

Which is not to say that I think you can't start with Wally. I'm someone that likes Wally and Barry. Each has something to offer. Heck, thematically, Barry represents the DC Silver Age ideal of "smarts make the hero" as much as any superhero and that's something that he can supply that makes him unique that no other hero can supply, Marvel or DC. And, I've gotten a lot of enjoyment out of Wally's climb out of the shadow over the years. But, I think some of Wally's writers have done a "disservice" by presenting Barry as a perfect saint in order to increase the burden for Wally, which wasn't present in the Bronze Age when Barry was a hero with his own struggles and doubts.

And, we forget that there are other angles of story. Like, how does it feel to be the source of a legacy. Barry doesn't think of himself as a hero, so what happens when he becomes aware of a heroic legacy? Can he relate to the legend of himself?

 

[Evil Twin]

It's the official origin now. So, it's the one they'll use in the movie, if they choose Barry (Especially with Johns and co-writer/producer).

Considering that we have a time travelling villain in Flash Rebirth, I wouldn't necessarily count on it holding past the end of the series.

 

[Flash Facts]

It's the official origin now. So, it's the one they'll use in the movie, if they choose Barry (Especially with Johns and co-writer/producer).

So using the current popular theory you believe that his movie origin will be that a dead time traveler that he killed in the future will come back to life and decide to get his revenge by killing his mother as a child setting him on the path to be a superhero?

 

[protocida]

This isn't confirmed. Until it is, yes. And, even if it is, it can still be in it, with slightly changes.

 

[protocida]

By the way, I'm not saying Wally is a bad character nor that he shouldn't have a movie, but Barry has too much interesting concepts to waste then killing him off in the movie's first act.

Maybe Wally can become Kid Flash during The Flash II and become Flash by The Flash III.

 

[Flash Facts]

This isn't confirmed. Until it is, yes.

That is why I said theory.

And, even if it is, it can still be in it, with slightly changes.

Okay. It will probably need a lot of tweaking though because even as it stands now it contains obvious plot holes.

 

[Kevin Smith]

Barry first.

It's what Jesus would do.
t:

Amen and amen, brotha!


Sounds like it will be Barry:

http://screenrant.com/geoff-johns-discuss-flash-green-lantern-movies-kofi-18347/

Yay!

I forget where it was, but Geoff Johns said something that I found interesting about the nature of Hal and Barry. Hal getting the ring from Abin Sur and Barry getting hit by lightning in the police lab, that's the iconic GL and Flash stuff that is synonymous with the characters. Their origins, I mean, everybody in comics knows it. What's Wally's origin? Is it there in the lab with Barry or is it when Barry dies? Kyle getting the ring in an alley outside a bar just doesn't have the same scale to it as Hal's origin, same with Wally.

^^ He said something to that effect. That reason alone is more than enough to convince me that Hal and Barry should have the Flash and GL movies.

 

[Kevin Smith]

By the way, I'm not saying Wally is a bad character nor that he shouldn't have a movie, but Barry has too much interesting concepts to waste then killing him off in the movie's first act.

Damn right.

 

[Kevin Smith]

That is Barry's retconed origin. Do really really think that is the one they would use?

Duh. Just like they're using Johns origin for Hal in the GL movie.

It might not even stick in the comics if some peoples predictions are right.

waaaaaaaaaah. U so don't like the attention Barry is getting.

Also isn't that kinda admitting the Barry's original origin was boring?

No. The original origin was never fleshed out, it was a plot. Just like most the silver age heroes. Same with Wally.

Take Black Hand for interest, a character I could've cared less about. Geoff made him super 3D and scary. He's being used to his potential, and I like that.

Stop complaining and enjoy the ride.

 

[JackIvyGB]

Amen and amen, brotha!

Alright, we is havin' some church up in here! In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Speed Force Batman!

Haha, thanks dude! And as for the people who want Wally first, I understand the interesting dynamic of a sidekick stepping up to the big time. It's definitely a fascinating part of Wally's story. The thing is though, how can you truly understand the gravity of just what kind of boots he is trying to fill, just what he is trying to live up to, and what kind of lessons that have been beat into his head that now have to be put into action, unless you see it yourself? To skip Barry being a main character would actually cheapen Wally's story! Flash backs won't carry the same emotional weight as seeing the character in action as it happens would. It's like your parents telling you the story of the granpa you were named after, but you never knew him. You understand he was important, sure, but you have no connection to the story. You know it's important, but you don't feel that it's important. We need to see Barry doing his thing for longer than 2 minutes in Wally's head when he's in a tough spot. We HAVE to feel just how hugely important the s*** ton of responsibility that's just been suddenly dropped at his feet is. The fact that it's gone from Jay to Barry, and now it's up to him to pick up this legacy and run as fast as he can.

You see, without a firm foundation in Barry, Wally cannot work as well as he could. Could you pull it off with Barry as a footnote. Sure. No one says you can't. But it defeats the purpose of a LEGACY character if you skip over the people that came first, regardless of how the story is told.

My 2 cents, anyway.