The Official Flash Thread

[The Overlord]

Correction, I have a scene in a park, not outside the bank.



Yeah, short fight scenes. Like Spider-Man having a fight with Flash Thompson, wrestling, and later rounding up Uncle Ben's killer. And then fighting random muggers still later.

That whole car and row boat chase scene seems way longer then the Flash Thompson fight.

Rainbow Raider is no more outlandish than Cyclops in my outline. OK, there are some forcefields, but onscreen he just fires some optic blasts.

That still money they spend else where, instead of on character that goes no where.

That's potentially dull. And faces the same problems as the robbery in Superman Returns, no sense of drama or possibility of defeat. Showing off Flash's powers and introducing the possibility of defeat is better dramatically, IMO, than just showing off his powers.

It doesn't have to be super exciting, because all it is establishing Flash is fighting crime, making a ten minute production of out of establishing Flash is fighting crime is waste money and time, money and time that can be spent on the real

When Spidey was randomly fighting crime, they didn't spend 10 minutes on Spider-Man chasing down B-list villains they just had him foiling random crime very quickly

The whole car chase and row boat chase is a set piece in of itself, it takes way too much time from the main plot.

I'm pretty sure my outline would be better too if I had six months paid time to spend on it. But, again, the idea that there are powered Rogues that are threatening the city and the police are outgunned is introduced and demonstrated in the very first scene, so I disagree that there is no buildup.

The piper scene is fine, but there is no build up to the introduction of Turtle and Rainbow raider, they just come out of the blue.

Well the Turtle isn't part of Cold's group. Just a "clever" criminal.

And a waste of time frankly.

And, honestly, I don't care about many of the Rogues besides Cold and Mirror Master as far as characterization beyond the basics. What I care about is how they challenge Barry's wits and limitations. I care about establishing Newton's Laws force Barry to be creative in how he uses his powers rather than just punching people. I care about how he defeats a foe he can't touch due to a lightning barrier. I care about how he defeats a heat seeking projectile and turns his foes weaponry against him.

I don't care that Cold had an abusive childhood. Or that Weather Wizard has guilt over killing his brother. Or whatever Boomerang's deal is beyond being a crude scumbag. Or that Heat Wave is a pyro. That's not deep or meaningful.

Yeah, I want the Rogues to be entertaining and fun, but I don't think they're deep and need development beyond the basics.

I don't think the vast majority of the villains are compelling in any way here, so I really think you have to edit a lot of them out.

I did pick two criminals max to develop. Cold and Mirror Master. If you want to call the rest glorified henchmen, like the Toad and Sabertooth in X-Men, go ahead. That's fair, but they're henchmen that challenge the Flash physically and mentally.

Toad and Sabertooth served more of plot purpose then Rainbow raider or Turtle here.

So, they're sequels. What's the point? As movies they're much more complicated than a rather straightforward round up the Rogues plot. A plot that starts in Act I and gets spread over the whole movie rather than jammed into the second half of a film.

You have more freedom with sequels, because you have already establish the character, the first film is what establishes the character, so you have to spend time doing, which is why you shouldn't throw in 7 villains at once.

Here's a better question, how does my outline compare to X-Men, a non-sequel, with Wolverine, Magneto, Mystique, Prof. X, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Rogue, Storm, Senator Kelly, Sabertooth, and Toad? Or, again, Watchmen, with it's multiple flashbacks, six major characters, and timeline spanning from WWII to 1985?

X-Men is a team book it has to deal with a lot of characters at once and a lot of the characters got lost in the schuffle in the movies.

Here seems like you are trying to cram a bunch of the characters from the Flash at once just because you want to see them on screen, rather then making them work within the confines of the plot. That's the difference

I'll disagree that the Iron Heights scene is needed as you do need something movie scale large for the climax. A simple robbery and trap isn't a big enough escalation from first act problems. And, you do need some sort of clever trap in my scenario. An insurmountable wave of criminals with three dimensional thinking for an escape I think fits the bill.

Again that's a lot of money for a giant set piece you don't really need and I don't like overly chaotic battles.

I do agree that the structure of the end could be rearranged so that Cold and Heat Wave are taken out on the battlefield. I just love me that New Frontier bit though, especially since it demonstrates that Cold has backup plans. And might have gotten away if it wasn't for that undisciplined Mirror Master.

Yeah the thing from new frontier was cute, but you already stretching out the time length here.

Well I didn't spend much time on dialogue in the outline, but I think establishing him as a thoughtful leader is accomplished. I do think his relationship with his henchmen helps flesh him out a bit though. There's a reason you see him independent of the other Rogues in the outline.

You haven't really established it that much, because you have way too many other elements going on at the

Maybe, if they're not distracted by watching a big car chase. And especially if he throws the sack under a tarp and the police speed by while he's under a bridge. The whole point to the Turtle is that he's using his calmness, patience, and inconspicuousness to his advantage. He's "clever".

He doesn't come off as clever though, he's in a row boat in a lake in a city park, people on the shore would see him and call the cops and unless the cops are really stupid ands every cop in town is chasing one car, Turtle would be caught easily

Seriously the row boat thing just doesn't work, he doesn't seem clever, he seems stupid, for not getting a motor boat. Not to mention the way you describe that scene is very vague, is the lake in park or did somehow run from the park to the lake, there is no transition.

Its just bad scene, it doesn't work.

Perhaps, but some thug with a gun isn't much of a threat, doesn't necessarily show Flash's limitations, doesn't help to establish what kind of world Flash lives in, and isn't necessarily exciting for the audience. Plus, DuChamp's painting fits well as a gag.

You don't need a great threat for something that just establish Flash is fighting crime, you just need to establish it and move on, not dwell on it for 10 minutes.

I do agree that further demonstrating Raider's connection to the core Rogues is a good idea, though.

But now you have another character fighting for screen time, why not just cut him?

I don't think the script is working because you spend too much time on unimportant characters and not enough time the important ones.

Two rare accidents years and years apart certainly helps sell that it's not a common occurence. Plus, it's canon, so I'd rather just roll with it than try to come up with some elaborate connection that has no meaning to the bigger plot.

Just because something is canon in comics doesn't mean it works on the screen.

It wouldn't have meaning for the first movie movie, but it would have meaning for a sequel featuring Zoom.

So, how do you hint at the Speed Force?

You could even lampshade the fact they seemingly got powers from unrelated events and have them theorize on why that is so? Then you introduce it later.

To me, Jay has the Alfred role. The mentor and sounding board. With maybe a little bit of Lucius Fox thrown in by supplying Barry with the costume instead of a complicated sequence with Barry making his own costume and moves the plot along faster. Plus we introduce the legacy aspects and have a passing the torch moment. We haven't seen a passing the torch moment yet in superhero movies, so that seemed like something unique.

He would serve more of a purpose if he trained Barry a bit, it would also explain why he knows some of those speed tricks.

And, to me, extensive training is out of character with Barry Allen. He's a comic book geek and smart. He should take to superheroing pretty naturally.

Then how do you explain him knowing those speed tricks right away?

Again, I think this is more a question of geography than it is of incompetence. How many block radius do you think the cops will actually search? At some point, it becomes unreasonable to search that far. Remember, they don't necessarily know that a supervillain who can enter through mirrors is involved initially and potentially think he had to approach from close by.

If the bottle and cigarettes are too far away a good lawyer can have them discounted as evidence, if they are block away that proves he was in the area, but it wouldn't prove was in the house, it would be circumstantial at best and why would Mirror Master ditch that stuff a block away instead of taking with him in a mirror, it doesn't make sense.

So the bottle and cigarettes either makes the cops look really stupid or wouldn't work as evidence.

Sure, he could do all that if he was disciplined and smart. This Mirror Master isn't.

I fully admit it's a change, but helps give this guy an edge and makes the Flash/Mirror Master conflict personal. And, besides, Sam Scudder hasn't been used in 20+ years, doesn't really have a modern personality, and making him a psycho that can be killed off to audience applause actually dovetails rather well with continuity. He's easily replaced with Evan McCulloch in any potential sequel.

Silver age Mirror Master was never stupid considering he invented his own tech, so making him really stupid seems out of character.

Ever watch Cops? Criminals are, typically, not bright.

Which is the point. They have superweapons, but for the most part, they're still just common criminals at heart. Fun, colorful, challenging criminals, but not megalomaniacs with schemes of city wide destruction and conquest.

Not doesn't mean they to be stupid or Mirror Master should have a Rhino level IQ, he should be somewhat clever, that would make him more interesting. I don't see why a fun character has to be stupid.

Sorry if I seem harsh, but you were a screen writer submitting this script, a studio exec or a producer would likely ask to edit it for the sake of time and money.

I don't think a script this packed with villains would ever be the Flash movie the studio would approve of, I don't think it would work.

 

[Evil Twin]

I'll cut to the chase this time.

It doesn't have to be super exciting, because all it is establishing Flash is fighting crime, making a ten minute production of out of establishing Flash is fighting crime is waste money and time, money and time that can be spent on the real

When Spidey was randomly fighting crime, they didn't spend 10 minutes on Spider-Man chasing down B-list villains they just had him foiling random crime very quickly

The whole car chase and row boat chase is a set piece in of itself, it takes way too much time from the main plot.

It doesn't have to be superexciting, but it should never be dull either. That's the downside to superheroes vs. common criminals.

Again, I think you think this is a much longer segment than it is. It's way shorter than Superman's first flight, for instance, with basicly three instances displaying his powers. His speed. His limitations. Some sense of humor. A display of a variety of his speed effects.

I think there's definitely a place for Flash to establish his capabilities before tangling with the core Rogues. What would you suggest that's interesting, exciting, establishes his capabilities and limitations, etc.?

And, as I said before, I prefer Flash tangling with low level supervillains than muggers and the like. It sets his world apart. Not to mention, when has Flash ever tangled with criminals of that sort? Even from the beginning he was tangling with aliens, extra dimensional beings, and the like. The Turtle is the closest to a common criminal he ever faced.

The piper scene is fine, but there is no build up to the introduction of Turtle and Rainbow raider, they just come out of the blue.

Turtle I'll grant you. Mainly because I think there's nothing wrong with throwing in a nod to Showcase #4. Rainbow Raider does get foreshadowed. So, as an alternative, we throw him in the initial Rogue meeting, where he really can't be bothered with Cold's scolding of MM because he has a job planned. And he's disgusted with Boomerang dissing Piper. Other than commenting on Flash's sartorial sense, what else do you think RR needs to do?

I don't think the vast majority of the villains are compelling in any way here, so I really think you have to edit a lot of them out.

Edit them out or beef up their dialogue and personalities?

You don't think they provide a challenge for Flash in their fights? A challenge that isn't repeated later, only bigger? Don't like Boomerang double crossing Weather Wizard?

You have more freedom with sequels, because you have already establish the character, the first film is what establishes the character, so you have to spend time doing, which is why you shouldn't throw in 7 villains at once.

X-Men is a team book it has to deal with a lot of characters at once and a lot of the characters got lost in the schuffle in the movies.

I disagree. X-Men is a movie that audiences were able to follow along with perfectly fine. Whether it's a team book or not is irrelevant, people who are able to follow complicated teamup movies are perfectly capable of following complicated solo movies. Yes, some of the characters were lost in the shuffle a bit. But, that's fine if the central characters the audience care about aren't. Is Barry or Iris lost in the shuffle of the outline? Are their arcs clear? Those two I consider important, Rainbow Raider, not so much.

Here seems like you are trying to cram a bunch of the characters from the Flash at once just because you want to see them on screen, rather then making them work within the confines of the plot. That's the difference

I'd say plotwise they work fine. I'm playing 10 little indians with the Rogues. And sequentially upping the battles. Flash vs. one Rogue. Flash vs. two Rogues. Flash vs. three Rogues. Act I. Act II. Act III. With each battle bringing something new to the table. And Flash accomplishing something in each act. The dots connect pretty well with that.

I agree that the outline I provided does not make most of the Rogues into deep foes. That's a choice on my part, mostly because I don't see them as deep. They provide a challenge for Flash, but they don't offer deep insights into his character. The challenge they provide is what gives us insight into Barry's character, his mind, his humor, not their personalities or conflicting philosophies.

Again that's a lot of money for a giant set piece you don't really need and I don't like overly chaotic battles.

See I think you absolutely need a giant set piece in Act III. Avoid the complaints about X-Men and Iron Man. Send the audience out on a high. Big climaxes work.

Normally, I'd have the Rogues attack the Flash Museum for a big set piece, but Barry's only been Flash for less than a week here. So, what's left? Threatening the whole city is un-Rogue like. A prison break at Iron Heights seems to fit my bill. And how can the Rogues turn the setting to their advantage? By unleashing more prisoners on Barry than he can handle, even at superspeed.

Of all that's there, that's one of my favorite bits. Barry is presented with a problem which requires the creative use of his powers to overcome. That's a pure Flash bit. Probably look good too with villains flying everywhere.

Just because something is canon in comics doesn't mean it works on the screen.

It wouldn't have meaning for the first movie movie, but it would have meaning for a sequel featuring Zoom.

You could even lampshade the fact they seemingly got powers from unrelated events and have them theorize on why that is so? Then you introduce it later.

Sure, I agree that the canon isn't the Bible for movies. But, I'm trying to think of some way better than saying "coincidences happen" and both were involved in electro-chemical accidents. Without tieing myself in convoluted knots over something that doesn't apply to the story at hand.

But, I agree if there's a way to throw in some theorizing it's in character. As long as it's short. It's great if you can fit it in, but if you have to jump through too many hoops, save it for when its relevant.

Then how do you explain him knowing those speed tricks right away?

He's a comic book fan. I even have him reading a Flash comic. (Going with the conceit that Jay had books about him like Bob Hope and Jerry Lewis had.) He knows this stuff already, now he's given a chance to put his knowledge to work.

If the bottle and cigarettes are too far away a good lawyer can have them discounted as evidence, if they are block away that proves he was in the area, but it wouldn't prove was in the house, it would be circumstantial at best and why would Mirror Master ditch that stuff a block away instead of taking with him in a mirror, it doesn't make sense.

So the bottle and cigarettes either makes the cops look really stupid or wouldn't work as evidence.

Good thing he never goes to trial then and the question of whether the evidence is good enough is moot. I think it's enough that Barry connects him to the crime so that he can close the book mentally if not up to criminal court standards. He found the killer and brought him to justice.

Killing off villains makes it so easy to ignore problem areas like trials and who's going to testify.

But, I think the idea of Mirror Master getting caught through the detective/scientist skills of Barry is a good one. Hopefully putting his speed to use, like quickly gaining a better vantage point. I'm up for the idea that the mystery portion can be improved, so suggestions?

Silver age Mirror Master was never stupid considering he invented his own tech, so making him really stupid seems out of character.

Not doesn't mean they to be stupid or Mirror Master should have a Rhino level IQ, he should be somewhat clever, that would make him more interesting. I don't see why a fun character has to be stupid.

Well, you're right he's not the Silver Age Mirror Master in anything but name. Although Silver Age Sam Scudder was already in prison prior, so I'd suggest his cleverness was more technological than practical.

Again, I'm thinking a guy that's not as clever as he thinks he is, and a killer that deserves to die in the end, is a good way to handle MM. Especially when he's easy to replace without getting the fanboys in an uproar. We definitely don't need two cold calculating leader types with the Rogues. And Cold and MM are the only givens as far as Rogues, so there needs to be contrast between those two specifically.

Which, again, isn't to suggest that there isn't a better way to handle the mystery elements. Although I think the discovery makes a nice transition to Iris. But, I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Webhead2006]

speaking of spidey for a moment i always thought it would have been a fun idea during those "Montage" scenes in all 3 films if they did throw in one or two c, d list foes you know would never make it in a full film but put there for those hardcore fans and to be someone where spidey could take them out very quick like a slitman, or what not.

 

[Evil Twin]

speaking of spidey for a moment i always thought it would have been a fun idea during those "Montage" scenes in all 3 films if they did throw in one or two c, d list foes you know would never make it in a full film but put there for those hardcore fans and to be someone where spidey could take them out very quick like a slitman, or what not.

I think it would be fun too. What's the Shocker good for otherwise?

Oh, btw, I'd of course cast Bruce Campbell as Rainbow Raider for what I have in mind.

 

[Webhead2006]

well i think shocker could be a mid level foe/secondary foe counting on how he is written but there is tons of guys like i said like a slitman who would have been a fun little cameo and just in a costume we fans would know and would been fun to throw in.

 

[The Overlord]

I'll cut to the chase this time.



It doesn't have to be superexciting, but it should never be dull either. That's the downside to superheroes vs. common criminals.

Again, I think you think this is a much longer segment than it is. It's way shorter than Superman's first flight, for instance, with basicly three instances displaying his powers. His speed. His limitations. Some sense of humor. A display of a variety of his speed effects.

The scene with the row boat and car chase may be longer if it were filmed though, you are not taking that account.

I think there's definitely a place for Flash to establish his capabilities before tangling with the core Rogues. What would you suggest that's interesting, exciting, establishes his capabilities and limitations, etc.?

Again I don't think we need giant action set pieces when we are just establishing that he is fighting crime, Spidey and Superman didn't need to spend special effects money on such scenes to establish they are capable of fighting crime, you can even do it in a montage, it shouldn't take that much time.

Again if you just have a guy rainbow laser beams coming out of his eyes, you need more of a build up then a throwaway line, people will wonder where that guy came from and having one vague line earlier is not sufficient build up.

And, as I said before, I prefer Flash tangling with low level supervillains than muggers and the like. It sets his world apart. Not to mention, when has Flash ever tangled with criminals of that sort? Even from the beginning he was tangling with aliens, extra dimensional beings, and the like. The Turtle is the closest to a common criminal he ever faced.

But why even make it the Turtle in the first? How are people supposed to know its him and the general audience will be confused by a fat little man jumping out of the car with a sack of money

Turtle I'll grant you. Mainly because I think there's nothing wrong with throwing in a nod to Showcase #4. Rainbow Raider does get foreshadowed. So, as an alternative, we throw him in the initial Rogue meeting, where he really can't be bothered with Cold's scolding of MM because he has a job planned. And he's disgusted with Boomerang dissing Piper. Other than commenting on Flash's sartorial sense, what else do you think RR needs to do?

Again I don't think the scene should be in there just because it was in the comics, I don't like that scene and I think it takes time away from more important stuff.

As for rainbow raider, I don't think he should not be in the movie at all because he is taking time away from more interesting characters. He was never a good character, so I don't any reason why he should in the movie.

Edit them out or beef up their dialogue and personalities?

Edit some out and beef up others, its easier to beef up a character if he has fewer characters to fight for screen time with.

You don't think they provide a challenge for Flash in their fights? A challenge that isn't repeated later, only bigger? Don't like Boomerang double crossing Weather Wizard?

There is some challenge, put then again that only makes them as compelling as a really tough mook in a action movie. It doesn't give them compelling

And Captain Boomerang betraying wizard is kinda interesting, but these characters have gotten so little that the betrayal doesn't whole lot, the characters are not compelling enough for me to care about it.

The betrayal would be cooler if it was some build up with these two, that made me care about the betrayal when it happens, it seems like it just happens out of the blue and there is no real reason to care, because those characters aren't developed enough to care about it.

I disagree. X-Men is a movie that audiences were able to follow along with perfectly fine. Whether it's a team book or not is irrelevant, people who are able to follow complicated teamup movies are perfectly capable of following complicated solo movies. Yes, some of the characters were lost in the shuffle a bit. But, that's fine if the central characters the audience care about aren't. Is Barry or Iris lost in the shuffle of the outline? Are their arcs clear? Those two I consider important, Rainbow Raider, not so much.

But they didn't just random introduce characters out of the blue, they didn't fight the Blob out of nowhere, there were 4 villains in X-Men, only 1 got characterization, but they were all part of the same group

I'd say plotwise they work fine. I'm playing 10 little indians with the Rogues. And sequentially upping the battles. Flash vs. one Rogue. Flash vs. two Rogues. Flash vs. three Rogues. Act I. Act II. Act III. With each battle bringing something new to the table. And Flash accomplishing something in each act. The dots connect pretty well with that.

Except most of the rogues are not compelling or well developed as characters, so there is no reason about most of them. The only villain I cared about was Mirror Master, the others seemed more like cyphers then characters. Having a few well developed villains is way better then having a ton of dull and undeveloped villains.

I agree that the outline I provided does not make most of the Rogues into deep foes. That's a choice on my part, mostly because I don't see them as deep. They provide a challenge for Flash, but they don't offer deep insights into his character. The challenge they provide is what gives us insight into Barry's character, his mind, his humor, not their personalities or conflicting philosophies.

I'm sorry but in this script, they are pretty dull, they seem more like plot devices. Are they supposed to be completely flat in this movie?

I can think of tons of comic book movie villains who are more compelling then every villain in this script, because they had more screen time to develop as characters.

Just because the villains are supposed to be fun and colorful, doesn't mean they have to be flat characters, you can be colorful and well developed.

See I think you absolutely need a giant set piece in Act III. Avoid the complaints about X-Men and Iron Man. Send the audience out on a high. Big climaxes work.

X-Men 3 had a giant fight scene in Alcatraz, was that a good fight scene? Or was it a a jumbled mess? How would the fight in Iron Heights be different?

Normally, I'd have the Rogues attack the Flash Museum for a big set piece, but Barry's only been Flash for less than a week here. So, what's left? Threatening the whole city is un-Rogue like. A prison break at Iron Heights seems to fit my bill. And how can the Rogues turn the setting to their advantage? By unleashing more prisoners on Barry than he can handle, even at superspeed.

Of all that's there, that's one of my favorite bits. Barry is presented with a problem which requires the creative use of his powers to overcome. That's a pure Flash bit. Probably look good too with villains flying everywhere.

They don't have threatening the city, they can set a trap in a factory or something, something simple.

The best scenes in a super hero movie was the spider-Man vs. Dr. Octopus fights and the climax just took place in a warehouse, it was a better climax then the prison fight in X-Men 3.

It might be your favorite part, but to me it reminds me of the chaotic fights in Transformers, where there way too many characters on screen at once and I couldn't tell who was who.

Sure, I agree that the canon isn't the Bible for movies. But, I'm trying to think of some way better than saying "coincidences happen" and both were involved in electro-chemical accidents. Without tieing myself in convoluted knots over something that doesn't apply to the story at hand.

That's why I said hint at it, rather then say it, perhaps Jay may even know about the Speed force, but for some reason not tell Barry or they can both find out about it in a sequel.

A full explanation of the speed force can occur in a sequel with Zoom, but it should be hinted at.

But, I agree if there's a way to throw in some theorizing it's in character. As long as it's short. It's great if you can fit it in, but if you have to jump through too many hoops, save it for when its relevant.

He's a comic book fan. I even have him reading a Flash comic. (Going with the conceit that Jay had books about him like Bob Hope and Jerry Lewis had.) He knows this stuff already, now he's given a chance to put his knowledge to work.

I don't think reading comic book in of itself is good enough training on to use super powers.

Good thing he never goes to trial then and the question of whether the evidence is good enough is moot. I think it's enough that Barry connects him to the crime so that he can close the book mentally if not up to criminal court standards. He found the killer and brought him to justice.

But it doesn't make Barry look smart if the evidence he gathered may not have held up in court, it negates the whole purpose of finding the clue in the first place, Barry didn't know MM was going to die, so the clue should be a slam dunk, not a far reach.

But, I think the idea of Mirror Master getting caught through the detective/scientist skills of Barry is a good one. Hopefully putting his speed to use, like quickly gaining a better vantage point. I'm up for the idea that the mystery portion can be improved, so suggestions?

Its a good idea, I just didn't like execution, I just don't think it makes sense that Mirror Master would drink a bottle of booze and smoke a bunch of cigarettes and ditch them a block away from the house instead of taking them with him, why would he do that? He is going out of his way to do that. It makes no sense.

Having Barry finding MM's eye lash or skin flake would be somewhat better.

Well, you're right he's not the Silver Age Mirror Master in anything but name. Although Silver Age Sam Scudder was already in prison prior, so I'd suggest his cleverness was more technological than practical.

It doesn't mean he was stupid though, all types of criminals go to jail by conventional means in the real world.

Again, I'm thinking a guy that's not as clever as he thinks he is, and a killer that deserves to die in the end, is a good way to handle MM. Especially when he's easy to replace without getting the fanboys in an uproar. We definitely don't need two cold calculating leader types with the Rogues. And Cold and MM are the only givens as far as Rogues, so there needs to be contrast between those two specifically.

The problem is you made Mirror Master into the main villain more or less, his murder of that cop is a major plot point, he gets more screen time then the other villains and the real final battle is between Mirror Master and the Flash, so it seems like you are short circuiting that role by making him an idiot.

Mirror Master should be intelligent but his intelligence should be different from Captain Cold, Cold should have some common sense, he should be somewhat methodical, while Mirror Master has the reptilian cunning of a psychopath, he sees all people as objects to be used and has very poor impulse control, while Cold actually cares about the other members of the team, MM does not, but can still get others to agree with him through convincing and charismatic arguments, Cold may have better leadership and planning abilities, MM is a far better liar. That plays better then cold being smart and MM riding the short bus. They play off each other because they are equals in many ways and it makes MM into more sinister and unlikable character and makes him more threatening. Its kinda like Joe Pesci play off the more reasonable gangster characters in Good Fellas and Casino, it makes for good viewing when done well.

 

[Evil Twin]

A couple of thoughts.

As to the Turtle, yeah, it's mainly a nod to the first adventure, which seems to me just as good a way as any to have Flash work his way up quickly. Frankly I think I'm envisioning the scene differently. Basically I'm thinking guy in rowboat gets sack of money tossed to him while car speeds by. Not a guy waddling out of a car. But, if there's a better first adventure idea, go ahead.

And, of course, there's no budget for this hypothetical outline.

But, hey, not wedded to Turtle at all. You can skip right to Flash taking the wheels off the getaway car if that's preferable and cut out the stuff in between. I don't like "hero has misadventures while learning his powers" though. Makes it look like amateur hour, IMO. And, frankly, I figure a speedster can do all the practicing he needs in the time it takes to run from Keystone to Central.

And, as I said, I don't believe that Flash vs. common crooks works. Which is why I think having his first outing end with a fight with a Rogue, a low key Rogue like Rainbow Raider, works. Build up to bigger and better from there.

I do think the Rogues do work better as plot challenges than as deep characters. They don't challenge the hero's philosophy and character in any way. They're an intellectual and physical challenge. But I agree that beefing up their interactions would be helpful. Some lively debates and one upmanship. Make their personalities stand out.

When I think of the Rogues I tend to think Reservoir Dogs. Mirror Master = Mr. White, for instance. Maybe make Weather Wizard the equivalent of Mr. Pink, the professional exasperated by all the rest. Boomerang is comic relief, but more dangerous than he appears. Heat Wave is the hot head. Cold the calculating leader. Perhaps make Rainbow Raider the Frazier of the group. I think playing up their personalities is where you can gain some traction, but I don't think they're made for handling major themes and ideas as counterpoints to the hero. I definitely think you want actors with strong on-screen personas for them.

Other thoughts.

X-Men 3 had a giant fight scene in Alcatraz, was that a good fight scene? Or was it a a jumbled mess? How would the fight in Iron Heights be different?

I think because there's a single focus point, the Flash, it won't be a jumbled mess. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Burly Brawl from Matrix Reloaded. Except with an actual threat of the hero losing and a better ending than "hero gets bored and flies away".

They don't have threatening the city, they can set a trap in a factory or something, something simple.

Such as?

Unless we're getting really Silver Agey, traps for the Flash aren't easy to set. Especially ones that aren't instantly lethal.

I don't think reading comic book in of itself is good enough training on to use super powers.

Perhaps not, but I'm kind of in that the speed "completes" Barry camp and he's a natural. Besides, how long does it take a speedster to train?

But it doesn't make Barry look smart if the evidence he gathered may not have held up in court, it negates the whole purpose of finding the clue in the first place, Barry didn't know MM was going to die, so the clue should be a slam dunk, not a far reach.

Its a good idea, I just didn't like execution, I just don't think it makes sense that Mirror Master would drink a bottle of booze and smoke a bunch of cigarettes and ditch them a block away from the house instead of taking them with him, why would he do that? He is going out of his way to do that. It makes no sense.

Having Barry finding MM's eye lash or skin flake would be somewhat better.

Here's an alternative idea. During the initial fight, the cop starts shattering reflective surfaces scattering mirrored glass everywhere. During the struggle, one of MM's mirrors get dislodged from one of his pouches, stepped on, and mixed up in all the rest of the glass. Without him noticing in the confusion. Or even with him noticing and him picking up all but a tiny sliver that he can't find.

Later, Barry goes back to the crime scene and reassembles all of the glass pieces at superspeed, leaving him with the pieces of MM's specially treated mirror. Proof positive.

 

[The Overlord]

A couple of thoughts.

As to the Turtle, yeah, it's mainly a nod to the first adventure, which seems to me just as good a way as any to have Flash work his way up quickly. Frankly I think I'm envisioning the scene differently. Basically I'm thinking guy in rowboat gets sack of money tossed to him while car speeds by. Not a guy waddling out of a car. But, if there's a better first adventure idea, go ahead.

And, of course, there's no budget for this hypothetical outline.

I don't see why there needs to be a big set piece with his first adventure, the whole film is his first adventure, it really doesn't matter what crime he stops first, its just set up for the bigger plot.

But, hey, not wedded to Turtle at all. You can skip right to Flash taking the wheels off the getaway car if that's preferable and cut out the stuff in between. I don't like "hero has misadventures while learning his powers" though. Makes it look like amateur hour, IMO. And, frankly, I figure a speedster can do all the practicing he needs in the time it takes to run from Keystone to Central

Why would the hero be an expert in using his powers right away, especially since said powers would completely theoretical? Barry starting out would be amateur, even an expert runner needs some training before they can go to the Olympics.

And, as I said, I don't believe that Flash vs. common crooks works. Which is why I think having his first outing end with a fight with a Rogue, a low key Rogue like Rainbow Raider, works. Build up to bigger and better from there.

Another problem is Rainbow Raider is not particularly popular villain, he is one of those villains that makes it on to the top 50 worst super villains list and I really I would have to agree, his motive is pretty stupid and frankly the gimmick and the name are just really pathetic. He's pretty lame, I really don't see a reason to put him in movie, he's like Flash's version of Stilt-Man and that;s why he died and no one bothered brining him back. That's why he ends up in articles like this (beware there is swearing):

http://www.seanbaby.com/stupcom/rainbow.htm

The point he is really character that should be cut, he's just not a good villain.

I do think the Rogues do work better as plot challenges than as deep characters. They don't challenge the hero's philosophy and character in any way. They're an intellectual and physical challenge. But I agree that beefing up their interactions would be helpful. Some lively debates and one upmanship.

But again you still make them interesting characters, just because they are colorful doesn't mean doesn't they have to be one dimensional, again I really think a smart Mirror Master would work better for interaction, he could be involved with a power struggle with Cold and could be trying to encourage the other rogues to get involved in more unseemly crimes, like drug smuggling, which Cold opposes. This sets up Cold is somewhat likable, while Mirror Master really is slimy. It makes them more well defined

Again I think a stronger script would excise many the villains and focus a lot more on the core group.

I think because there's a single focus point, the Flash, it won't be a jumbled mess. I'm thinking more along the lines of the Burly Brawl from Matrix Reloaded. Except with an actual threat of the hero losing and a better ending than "hero gets bored and flies away".

I didn't like that scene in the Matrix: Reloaded, I thought it was boring.

Such as?

They can lure him somewhere and set traps in advance.

Unless we're getting really Silver Agey, traps for the Flash aren't easy to set. Especially ones that aren't instantly lethal.

Except this is Flash's first adventure, so he is not quite experienced with traps yet, plus with Cold setting up his cold fields in advance, Mirror Master setting up a lot of powers, etc.

Perhaps not, but I'm kind of in that the speed "completes" Barry camp and he's a natural. Besides, how long does it take a speedster to train?

I don't see how that makes sense, all skills are honed, even a natural athlete has to train and hone his skill before he is ready to compete.

As for how long, I don't know, but just because he is fast doesn;t mean he can mentally master something right away, that's two different, besides if it takes too long you handle it in a montage.

I just think it would be good to give Jay more to do in the movie, considering he is a speedster himself.

Here's an alternative idea. During the initial fight, the cop starts shattering reflective surfaces scattering mirrored glass everywhere. During the struggle, one of MM's mirrors get dislodged from one of his pouches, stepped on, and mixed up in all the rest of the glass. Without him noticing in the confusion. Or even with him noticing and him picking up all but a tiny sliver that he can't find.

Later, Barry goes back to the crime scene and reassembles all of the glass pieces at superspeed, leaving him with the pieces of MM's specially treated mirror. Proof positive.

That can work, I like that.

 

[Evil Twin]

I don't see why there needs to be a big set piece with his first adventure, the whole film is his first adventure, it really doesn't matter what crime he stops first, its just set up for the bigger plot.

Well, I don't want to do a montage. At least I think the montage needs a definite theme and climax.

Plus, I think in the scheme of other films Flash needs to do something pretty memorable and definitive in the first act. Bruce Wayne fought ninjas and blew up an evil temple. Tony Stark fought his way out of a terrorist's cave. Superman saved the space shuttle and a jet. Spider-Man fought his uncle's killer.

I'm up for alternatives, but I think some training scenes and a montage of little stuff aren't going to cut it.

Another problem is Rainbow Raider is not particularly popular villain, he is one of those villains that makes it on to the top 50 worst super villains list and I really I would have to agree, his motive is pretty stupid and frankly the gimmick and the name are just really pathetic. He's pretty lame, I really don't see a reason to put him in movie, he's like Flash's version of Stilt-Man and that;s why he died and no one bothered brining him back. That's why he ends up in articles like this (beware there is swearing):

http://www.seanbaby.com/stupcom/rainbow.htm

The point he is really character that should be cut, he's just not a good villain.

You're right Rainbow Raider is a lame, comic booky, villain. Iris even comments on that. That's kind of the point though. It's a comic booky world. And even the lamest villains are too much for the police without a lot of prep.

But, I stand by the idea that there needs to be something definitively heroic by Flash in Act I. Taking down a Rogue moves the plot forward as it gets the core group's attention in a hurry. And demands a countermove. Now, I'm not going to waste a villain with potential for first act takedown like Dr. Alchemy. So, among the remaining, Raider fit the bill.

Plus, what does he do in the outline that's particularly lame? Fire some optic blasts? Heck, optic blasts have been shown to work on film. Steal a painting, a painting relevant to Flash btw?

Also, while overall serious, I'm not aiming for TDK territory. Spider-Man has JJJ to supply some comic relief, but I think there needs to be some here. Get someone like Bruce Campbell, Kelsey Grammer, or David Hyde-Pierce into the Raider outfit and have some fun. It's o.k. for superhero films to be fun.

But again you still make them interesting characters, just because they are colorful doesn't mean doesn't they have to be one dimensional, again I really think a smart Mirror Master would work better for interaction, he could be involved with a power struggle with Cold and could be trying to encourage the other rogues to get involved in more unseemly crimes, like drug smuggling, which Cold opposes. This sets up Cold is somewhat likable, while Mirror Master really is slimy. It makes them more well defined

Again I think a stronger script would excise many the villains and focus a lot more on the core group.

I like the idea of MM suggesting drug smuggling. And Cold having some code of honor. That would fit right in with their first meeting.

How many Rogues do you need for a convincing power struggle? I'm thinking you need more than 3 for certain. With what I proposed, I have a Vito Corleone and the 5 Families structure in mind.

But, I think the problem is not that there are too many Rogues, but that you don't think they're fleshed out enough and beyond Cold and Mirror Master they're glorified henchmen. I tend to think though that if you flesh out more than 2, you start to unbalance the story away from Barry and Iris. I've made my choice that you don't need much beyond Cold and Mirror Master, the rest are color and challenges.

I didn't like that scene in the Matrix: Reloaded, I thought it was boring.

Yeah, but it wasn't incoherent. I'd suggest it was boring because there was no real threat of danger and it had a bad ending to the scene.

They can lure him somewhere and set traps in advance.

Except this is Flash's first adventure, so he is not quite experienced with traps yet, plus with Cold setting up his cold fields in advance, Mirror Master setting up a lot of powers, etc.

It's easy to say, Rogues set traps. The devil is in the details. What are good, easily communicated traps? What's the out?

And, honestly, I don't like the "he is not quite experienced" idea. Don't need that. Flash is sharp, but the Rogues are pretty sharp too, I think is better dramatically.

Also, I like there being more at stake than Flash fails, he dies. Flash fails, he dies, City is flooded with criminals in addition to the Rogues raises the stakes. It's not a return to status quo, it's a threat of worse than status quo.

I don't see how that makes sense, all skills are honed, even a natural athlete has to train and hone his skill before he is ready to compete.

As for how long, I don't know, but just because he is fast doesn;t mean he can mentally master something right away, that's two different, besides if it takes too long you handle it in a montage.

I just think it would be good to give Jay more to do in the movie, considering he is a speedster himself.

A guy that can run 700 miles a second is going to have plenty of time to pick things up. (And yeah, I appreciate the training montage joke.) My thought is that I trash the diner stuff, have Barry discover his powers in the rain, and do a few stunts as practice before he gives Jay a call. Not too many so as too keep the audience guessing as how he's going to get out of this jam, but a couple to get the idea across.

Jay's a retired speedster. And once he passes the torch, I think it's o.k. for him to step aside until needed again. Like, maybe in a story involving legacies and the Speed Force.

 

[Timstuff]

Good grief, I leave this thread a lone for a few days, and look what happens! A massive block of text that I have no hope whatsoever of being able to read all of!

 

[Antonello Blueberry]

How would you feel if Barry Allen was introduced in a solo movie and then killed and replaced by Wally the following year in the JL movie?

 

[Evil Twin]

An alternative idea to what I proposed for Act I debut.

Mirror Master robs a jewelry store. Flash shows up and kicks his ass, but Mirror Master just manages to escape. Basically, MM becomes the big bad of the story.

Much of the rest of the movie plays out like laid out before with revisions to mystery beats.

Third Act revision, MM abandons Cold and Heat Wave at Iron Heights. They get taken out in the manner I described and dropped off at Police HQ just as Iris is showing up. MM taunts Flash and heads off to Hall of Mirrors confrontation.

Edit: Additional idea. Go with the damaged weapon in the fight with a shard missing. Have MM pull out the weapon in the first act fight, it malfunctions, and he loses it in the fight to be recovered as evidence. Later, Barry finds the mirror shard and, as proof, physically fits the shard into the weapon. A visual solution for a movie.

Not Sherlock Holmes, but fine for movie purposes.

Also, I think Flash should do a little something before confronting his first Rogue just to demonstrate that he's not defined by the Rogues. Stop a getaway car. Fix a flat tire for an old lady. Run a stranded pregnant woman to the hospital. Not necessarily anything elaborate, but enough to demonstrate his all around character.

 

[MadVillainy]

Good grief, I leave this thread a lone for a few days, and look what happens! A massive block of text that I have no hope whatsoever of being able to read all of!

eh..I've been hear about daily but I still have no idea what their talking about in this wall of text

 

[cin0]

How would you feel if Barry Allen was introduced in a solo movie and then killed and replaced by Wally the following year in the JL movie?

It doesnt have to be the following year

 

[Evil Twin]

Yeah, sorry about the wall of text. Got a bit out of hand there.

I'll try to be more succinct in following posts.

Oh, too sum it up, I put up an outline of a Flash vs. Rogues origin movie, basic plot Rogues are on the loose, Mirror Master is a scumbag, Barry gains powers, picks off several Roges and tosses them in jail, does some forensics stuff to prove MM is a killer, Iris is threatened and escapes on her own without the help of the hero, Rogues set trap/jail break, Flash escapes, MM buys it in fight in Hall of Mirrors, with bits from much of Flash's history including Showcase #4 and The New Frontier. The Overlord and I hashed over some of the issues he had with it to come up with alternatives and improve the outline, probably in excruciating detail for those who didn't read the initial outline.

There are still some issues and disagreements, but I think it proves that a couple of guys on the internet can move towards a workable Flash screenplay in a couple of days. So, what's taking WB so long?

Back to the regularly scheduled topic.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

Wally West has always been my fav Flash

it's too bad Ryan Reynolds got cast as Green Lanter cuz he was my favorite actor for the role

with him out of the picture i think my top picks for Wally/Flash are

Sean William Scott
Chris Evans
Michael Rosenbaum

 

[cin0]

im glad, ryan reynolds looks nothing like wally.

 

[Kevin Smith]

jhc what the hell is everyone talking about?

 

[Webhead2006]

i still figure it will end up being barry for flash and they will probably want the character to be anywhere between 24-28yrs old for the film. Now if thats the case i see wally ending up being a much younger guy, so like if they went with 28yrs old for barry in first film. Wally would probably be like 17-19 yrs old. I would think so they could have a nice clear age difference and that nephew/uncle relationship can be defined.

 

[cin0]

I would enjoy seeing wally as kidflash first and watching his character grow into being flash.

 

[Webhead2006]

it would be a fun aspect to try out. Though i could see them being to leery on an actual kid and have him more a late teen.

 

[Breogan]

My choice:

Barry Allen played by Ryan Gosling

 

[Breogan]

Followed by an eventual Brave & The Bold Movie:

Staring Reynolds and Gosling as GL & Flash!

 

[Webhead2006]

gosling would probably make a nice barry, but it was brought up a few times in the past when his name was rumored for a few different roles that he doesnt have any interest in comicbook movies.

 

[cin0]

it would be a fun aspect to try out. Though i could see them being to leery on an actual kid and have him more a late teen.

thats wat i meant