Comics The Official O.M.I.T. thread...

[iloveclones]

So you have to spend an evening watching "The Bachlorette" or "Bridezillas".

We have Desperate Housewives on our DVR

AND HOCKEY!!

 

[Shockdingo]

Believe it or not, I WANT to like Spider-man again...especially since lil' Gwen can now say, "SPIDEY!!!!".
t:

That is so adorable man! t:

 

[Themanofbat]

Yowtch!!! Dragon, we need to have a drink.

I wanna be the bartender...

 

[Spider-Gnome]

OK, let me try to address a few of these posts.

Aloha,
ONLY was incorrect-Mostly would have been more accurate. But still, if you really wanted to enjoy OMIT, you would have to accept OMIT Chapter One Something Old, as the start of filling in the gaps of OMD.

I did want to enjoy OMIT. I like seeing old things with new twists (like Back to the Future 2). It's just that part one of OMIT was handled poorly.

I've always wondered why folks were willing to accept Loki playing it straight and honoring his debt to Spider-Man but not being able to deal with Mephisto who has a longer history with Spidey than Loki and a much greater reason to HATE him.

OK, first off, I liked the marriage and saw nothing wrong with it. There was no need to erase the marriage, which caused a split in the fan community. So, there was no reason to do it in the first place.

Now, Marvel insists it wants Pete single for the benefit of the character in the long run. Fine. I don't agree, but let's go with it. I agree Marvel should not A) kill MJ, because I like her, plus we've been down this road with Gwen or B) divorce them, because I think that doesn't fit his character.

So why Loki over Mephisto? The Mephisto deal has Pete knowingly making a deal with Evil Incarnate to do something against what both Aunt May and God told him in letting go.

The Loki deal seems to be set-up by JMS to work in JMS's exit from the series (I believe JMS wanted to wipe out "Sins Past"). Using this dangling plot thread, Loki can save Aunt May as the favor he owes Pete. However, the Trickster that he is, he doesn't tell Pete that in order to do this fix, one of the side effects is Pete & MJ never married.

The Loki deal is more organic to story (as it has been set-up earlier), is in charcater for Loki, and doesn't make Pete (or MJ) the culprit in the whole thing.

You say AWFUL! what parts of the story so far are you saying don't fit? Pete and MJ almost got married in 1987. Did they have hand size cell phones back then?

Spoiler

Because that's what MJ uses to call Peter with.

Now there's something you can get upset about.
Spidey rules

The cell phone update was the least of the story's problems. And I didn'y say the stuff they fit in didn't fit. I said the fat guy on top of Spidey prevented the wedding was awful.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

The only redeeming element of this issue (and maybe the others will rise to the occasion as promised; I don't know) was the notion of the ripple effect. One insignificant moment that changes the significant. It grounds cause and effect better than "we must go back and defeat the Skrulls to prevent this totalitarian future". The assumption that only the major events have the significance to change the flow of time for everyone is often a bit too grandiose. However the suggestion that Mephisto can see all possible paths of causality to know with absolute certainty of the paths created by changing the insignificant is laughable, even with his power levels. And why in the world would any of the aspects sit back and allow it? Mephisto's kind of fabric of time manipulation is almost certainly within their remit of grabbing their attention as it directly affects their existence

I get the ripple effect. The problem is, Marvel wants the ripple effect to only effect the marriage, effecting absolutely nothing else.

Something that stops the wedding should not be such a comical goof. Granted, there may be more to it in the next issues, but I find lately, if I give Marvel the benefit of the doubt, I'm usually disappointed.

I think the more obvious way of handling it would have been a situation where MJ almost dies because of Spider-Man. Then, either have MJ not able to deal with it or Pete calls it off for her safety.

Heck, I forgot how they handled it in "What If" Pete didn't marry MJ, but it couldn't be as bad as this!

 

[Spider-Gnome]

What a bunch of claptrap (I've been waiting a lifetime to use that particular phrase...)

What, we're not allowed to say what we don't like about a particular issue?

And didja ever think that people might be a little tired of hearing about supporting mystical abortions, and being JQ's lapdog, and justifying their all-consuming hatred of the institution of marriage, and all the other little girl whining every time they say they liked this or that in the title?

Over in another thread, there were posters saying things along the lines of "I can't WAIT for BNDers to defend this..." And then, when we're fair enough to point out what we did and didn't like, we're told we don't support it. What a weak way to make an argument.

Don't know why you're so defensive, 'clones. I wasn't calling you out or anything. If it sounded like I was, I apologize. I wasn't saying, "See all you BND-lovers! Try and defend this! This proves you're wrong!" I just meant the story was bad, and you'll have trouble finding people who like this issue, regardless of their stance on BND.

When I said "did not support," I meant did not like this particular issue of Amazing Spider-Man.

I was NOT making this us against them!

 

[Venom 1988]

The Loki deal seems to be set-up by JMS to work in JMS's exit from the series (I believe JMS wanted to wipe out "Sins Past"). Using this dangling plot thread, Loki can save Aunt May as the favor he owes Pete. However, the Trickster that he is, he doesn't tell Pete that in order to do this fix, one of the side effects is Pete & MJ never married.

The Loki deal is more organic to story (as it has been set-up earlier), is in charcater for Loki, and doesn't make Pete (or MJ) the culprit in the whole thing.

As far as Loki is concerned he wasn't technically alive when OMD happened. Plus JMS had bigger plans for his return in the Thor book.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I understand what Donald is trying to say... when you are in long-term loving relationships, on occasion, you do things that you're wife wants you to do even though you may not like it... it's a give & take thing when you are in a long-term relationship...

You'll notice I did not say anything about what happened in OMD, I am merely making the statement that men in long-term loving relationships understand what it takes to do something for the person you love...

I get that, I understand. Like I said, I'm married too. Maybe I got a little defensive, but it sounded like if you didn't agree with the MJ whisper thing, you're a whiney single fanboy living in your parents' basement. I was merely trying to say that is not true.

And as far as not agreeing, I think Dragon said it pretty well:

And yeah, when you love someone you'd take a bullet for them.

But that has nothing to do- isn't even in the ballpark of Donald's using long-term relationships to justify the events in OMD. Again, no woman who loves a man would ask him to do something that he's completely opposed to.

Peter has spent his life- risked his life- in his battle against evil. To then ask him to surrender his will to the MASTER OF EVIL, is ridiculous. To do all of this simply because Peter and MaryJane couldn't accept that- people die is evil itself. To expect the Master of Corruption and Lies to be honorable is stupidity itself.

Anyway, saying what MJ whispered was meant to be justification for Pete making the deal did not occur to me. The reveal just came across as anti-climatic.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

As far as Loki is concerned he wasn't technically alive when OMD happened. Plus JMS had bigger plans for his return in the Thor book.

Well, since JMS look like he was setting up the favor for the end of the series, it should have been timed better.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I just love how immediately things seem to have to go to a "us versus them" mentality. This thread is going to be so f'n fun. t:

Only because they started it!

Seriously, dude. This isn't what it's about. It's not about whether you like OMD or BND or not. It is about OMIT and how it answers the remaining questions.

And so far, I think they're off to a bad start.

And sorry for all the multiple postings. I've been having A LOT issues posting, so I'm trying to to them in small bites, so I don't lose anything.

 

[Donald Thomas]

Well, since JMS look like he was setting up the favor for the end of the series, it should have been timed better.

Aloha,
From the Marvel web site
Loki Real Name
Loki Laufeyson

Aliases
Scarlet Witch; Gem-Keeper, Walter Lawson, Lester, Loren Olsen, Tyfon, Father Williams, Willie, Tso Zhung, Satan; has also impersonated hundreds of others.

Identity
No dual identity; regarded as a mythological character by the general populace of Earth

Citizenship
Realm of Asgard

Place of Birth
Jotunheim, Asgard

First Appearance
Venus #6 (1949), (modern) Journey into Mystery #85 (1962)

Origin
Journey Into Mystery #112-113 & 115 (1965)
Significant Issues
Laufey slain, adopted by Odin (Journey Into Mystery #112, 1965); interfered with forging of Mjolnir (Thor Annual #11, 1983); claimed throne of Asgard while Odin was absent, placed Balder within Destroyer, beaten by Odin (Thor #263-266, 1977); learned of Hela's curse on Thor, sent giants, Midgard Serpent & Destroyer to torment him (Thor #375-382, 1987); led armies into Ragnarok (Thor #80-81, 2004); decapitated by Thor, head used for advice in final attack on They Who Sit Above in Shadow, destroyed along with Asgard (Thor #84-85, 2004) Note: See Official Bibliography for complete version.
Occupation
God of evil; former god of mischief and madness

I repeat- I have never gotten how some OMD haters felt that Peter/Spidey making a deal with Loki was so much more acceptable, moral and in character than making a desperate deal with Mephisto. BOTH characters are considered GODS of EVIL. I haven't read Thor in years, but but I've always known Loki was the God of Evil and Mischief.
Spidey rules

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Aloha,
I repeat- I have never gotten how some OMD haters felt that Peter/Spidey making a deal with Loki was so much more acceptable, moral and in character than making a desperate deal with Mephisto. BOTH characters are considered GODS of EVIL. I haven't read Thor in years, but but I've always known Loki was the God of Evil and Mischief.
Spidey rules

Pete would not be making a deal with Loki. Loki is paying back a favor to Pete for helping him, which already happened in a previous issue.

And again:

Pete KNOWINGLY makes a deal with Mephisto, giving up his marriage.

In my Loki scenario, Loki tricks Peter. Pete does not realize what will happen.

I'm sorry if I'm not clear.

 

[:eek:]

Better to just have them divorce. The golden rule to writing; don't do things more complicated than you have to. What we see here with OMIT can be compared to Sins Past for example. Shoehorning new details into the past is always like trying to force new pieces of a different puzzle into an already finished picture. The result is never pretty

 

[Themanofbat]

Though with OMIT, they're actually trying to fit it into an old story whereas Sins Past just went ahead and said "it fit somewhere in the older issues"... which we know is almost impossible given the timeline of those early issues...

 

[:eek:]

On the other hand; Sins Past was only about adding details. OMIT is adding details for the purpose of a major change in the timeline, going from marriage to no marriage. Which, in my opinion, is an even more annoying case of a writer cheating to get what he wants. So, while I hated the idea (and thought it was unnecessary and did absolute nothing to make Gwen's death more tragic), it's easier for me to buy that Gwen and Norman got some kids together than that the marriage didn't happen. I think it's nothing more than a slap in the face on those who wrote the wedding issue and wrote about a married Peter Parker all those years. Imagine if someone took a classic novel and rewrote it because he/she is unhappy with the ending, the faith of a certain character or something. And I can't see how undoing the marriage in such a awkward way is supposed to improve anything. It certainly doesn't improve reading the old issues where the marriage exists and you now have to remind yourself "oh, they weren't married, they just lived together". As I said before, a simple divorce would have been the best way to go. Preferably around the time when JMS took over as writer and MJ was in California after Mackie's Stalker-story. A divorce there and then would have made perfect sense instead of bringing them together again (especially since Quesada clearly from the beginning was against the marriage), and the Peter/MJ relationship could have been what it is now without going through the Back in Black/OMD era. It certainly would have made for a more natural flow in the story-telling and give the reader a sense of character development. But maybe that's too much to ask for in a comic-book that seems always to be about cheap gimmicks and "shocking" events.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

On the other hand; Sins Past was only about adding details. OMIT is adding details for the purpose of a major change in the timeline, going from marriage to no marriage. Which, in my opinion, is an even more annoying case of a writer cheating to get what he wants. So, while I hated the idea (and thought it was unnecessary and did absolute nothing to make Gwen's death more tragic), it's easier for me to buy that Gwen and Norman got some kids together than that the marriage didn't happen. I think it's nothing more than a slap in the face on those who wrote the wedding issue and wrote about a married Peter Parker all those years. Imagine if someone took a classic novel and rewrote it because he/she is unhappy with the ending, the faith of a certain character or something. And I can't see how undoing the marriage in such a awkward way is supposed to improve anything. It certainly doesn't improve reading the old issues where the marriage exists and you now have to remind yourself "oh, they weren't married, they just lived together".

Well said!

As I said before, a simple divorce would have been the best way to go. Preferably around the time when JMS took over as writer and MJ was in California after Mackie's Stalker-story. A divorce there and then would have made perfect sense instead of bringing them together again (especially since Quesada clearly from the beginning was against the marriage), and the Peter/MJ relationship could have been what it is now without going through the Back in Black/OMD era. It certainly would have made for a more natural flow in the story-telling and give the reader a sense of character development. But maybe that's too much to ask for in a comic-book that seems always to be about cheap gimmicks and "shocking" events.

I think the reason they got back together when JMS took over was because the fans, by in large, wanted them together. The fans have resisted getting rid of Pete's wife after each attempt. The Clone Saga, getting blown-up in an airplane, separating after the stalker (which was weird because I think that had nothing to do with Pete being Spider-Man), deal with Mephisto.

It's rather odd that the WORST of these solutions is the one that sticks.

 

[Dragon]

Yowtch!!! Dragon, we need to have a drink.

[quote = Themanofbat]I wanna be the bartender... [/quote]


There with Bells on, fellas. Bring Donald along too

We have Desperate Housewives on our DVR

AND HOCKEY!!

I learnedc the hard the way last summer that the only way to watch those bits of classic television is to grit your teeth, smile and nod at her until its over. And a shot or two doesn't hurt.

 

[Dragon]

Well said!




I think the reason they got back together when JMS took over was because the fans, by in large, wanted them together. The fans have resisted getting rid of Pete's wife after each attempt. The Clone Saga, getting blown-up in an airplane, separating after the stalker (which was weird because I think that had nothing to do with Pete being Spider-Man), deal with Mephisto.

It's rather odd that the WORST of these solutions is the one that sticks.

I honestly don't think the fans would mind them splitting MJ and Peter up if tts handled well. The problem is that is ALWAYS been handled poorly

I mean you have the first break-up back in the 70's coming after an ill-advised proposal from Peter and MJ turning him down because she wanted to do other guys during the Disco-Era.

Then you have the Clone Saga- nuff said.

Then you have her anti-climactic "death" in the plane crash.

Her going off the LA for whatever reason and acting like a *****. Even though her kidnap experience would likely have her needing to be with Peter even more.

Then we get a deal with Satan. I just have to keep scratching my head and wondering if these guys have ever spoken to another human being.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I mean you have the first break-up back in the 70's coming after an ill-advised proposal from Peter and MJ turning him down because she wanted to do other guys during the Disco-Era.

Oddly enough it was shortly after MJ left that I actually did stop reading and collecting Spider-Man. (To be honest, it also coincided with starting high school).

I started reading again around the appearance of Hobgoblin and the return of . . . Mary Jane!

 

[Dragon]

Oddly enough it was shortly after MJ left that I actually did stop reading and collecting Spider-Man. (To be honest, it also coincided with starting high school).

I started reading again around the appearance of Hobgoblin and the return of . . . Mary Jane!

That's funny, because so did I. Which brings up the other problem. Peter's never had another interesting realtionship. There's only Gwen and MJ. Which again suggests that Marvel's slew of post-Stan writers simply don't write relationships well. Balck Cat, Peter's only other substantial relationship was ridiculous. The writing was just crazy. Everything else has been bland.

 

[Miken Ayers]

I honestly don't think the fans would mind them splitting MJ and Peter up if tts handled well. The problem is that is ALWAYS been handled poorly

I mean you have the first break-up back in the 70's coming after an ill-advised proposal from Peter and MJ turning him down because she wanted to do other guys during the Disco-Era.

Then you have the Clone Saga- nuff said.

Then you have her anti-climactic "death" in the plane crash.

Her going off the LA for whatever reason and acting like a *****. Even though her kidnap experience would likely have her needing to be with Peter even more.

Then we get a deal with Satan. I just have to keep scratching my head and wondering if these guys have ever spoken to another human being.

A year before OMD was announced officially I was an active member on Joe Quesada's message board. He was actually asking us what our thoughts on Peter and Mary Jane's marriage being a thing of the past was. NO ONE on the board was supporting it. Also at Wizard World that same year the topic of the marriage ending was brought up by a different fan in attendance at every panel Joe Quesada was out.

Now keep in mind this was before anyone knew anything about Mephisto, and even longer till we'd find out he turned in to a pigeon and flew back in time.

The marriage ending was something a vocal majority opposed, then once it happens having Mephisto erase it as easily as you and I can turn on a lightswitch was the equivilant to a doctor telling someone they have terminal cancer while punching them in the groin.

And keep in mind I could care less about the marriage going away. I dropped the book because post OMD they did everything to regress Spider-Man short of making him 15 years old again, and Harry coming back didn't help either. I spoke out against ending the marriage, because Joe couldn't really justify why it was hurting the book other than he didn't like it, and I knew that forcing such a change would probably backfire. His only counterargument to me was, "It's not like I said we're definitely going to do the story."

 

[Miken Ayers]

That's funny, because so did I. Which brings up the other problem. Peter's never had another interesting realtionship. There's only Gwen and MJ. Which again suggests that Marvel's slew of post-Stan writers simply don't write relationships well. Balck Cat, Peter's only other substantial relationship was ridiculous. The writing was just crazy. Everything else has been bland.

So you're saying because he hasn't been with tons of women, that's justification to break up the marriage after it's been widely accepted? Hey Superman's only memorable girlfriends were Lana and Lois. Let's kill her off for no other reason than to make Superman a male prostitute.

 

[spiderfan970]

This was so bad. I am done with Amazing Spider-Man for a while. See you guys over in Ultimate (aka the best Spider-Man title).

 

[Spider-Gnome]

That's funny, because so did I. Which brings up the other problem. Peter's never had another interesting realtionship. There's only Gwen and MJ. Which again suggests that Marvel's slew of post-Stan writers simply don't write relationships well. Balck Cat, Peter's only other substantial relationship was ridiculous. The writing was just crazy. Everything else has been bland.

For a while I actually enjoyed the Pete & Cat relationship and rooted for them. Of course, once he revealed his id to her, Cat wigged out and pretty much ruined any chance of a real relationship.

post OMD they did everything to regress Spider-Man short of making him 15 years old again

Pete never act this immature even when he was 15.

I spoke out against ending the marriage, because Joe couldn't really justify why it was hurting the book other than he didn't like it

And this is basically why this whole OMD/BND caused an unnecessary split in the Spidey fan community,

 

[Dragon]

A year before OMD was announced officially I was an active member on Joe Quesada's message board. He was actually asking us what our thoughts on Peter and Mary Jane's marriage being a thing of the past was. NO ONE on the board was supporting it. Also at Wizard World that same year the topic of the marriage ending was brought up by a different fan in attendance at every panel Joe Quesada was out.

Now keep in mind this was before anyone knew anything about Mephisto, and even longer till we'd find out he turned in to a pigeon and flew back in time.

The marriage ending was something a vocal majority opposed, then once it happens having Mephisto erase it as easily as you and I can turn on a lightswitch was the equivilant to a doctor telling someone they have terminal cancer while punching them in the groin.

And keep in mind I could care less about the marriage going away. I dropped the book because post OMD they did everything to regress Spider-Man short of making him 15 years old again, and Harry coming back didn't help either. I spoke out against ending the marriage, because Joe couldn't really justify why it was hurting the book other than he didn't like it, and I knew that forcing such a change would probably backfire. His only counterargument to me was, "It's not like I said we're definitely going to do the story."

We're pretty much in agreement.

But my point is that; sure, if asked fans may be against the marriage ending. It isn't like most can envision how this could be done well. But if the stories are well-written, then I'm sure they'd continue to follow Spidey. The problem I've had is that the comics have been for far-far-FAR too long wirtten really poorly. Peter is consistently written to be a moron. Most story arcs follow the "Idiot Plot" formula. Promising storylines are never fully explored. I keep using the example of the Spider Tracer Murders that didn't involve any murders.

I hate- HATE with a white hot heat Norman and Harry being brought back. But if they had to do it, there are two major storylines they could be exploring that they can't even seem to recognize.

1. Why the Goblin formula appears to be immortality in a testtube, and what the full implications of that might be.

2. Peter achieving final justice for Gwen. The Goblin was brought back more tha ten years ago and Peter has done nothing about Gwen's death even though he came just shy of killing the Goblin when she died. When he regained his composure, he told the Goblin he was going to jail. He has yet to fulfill that promise. Yeah, I know he went to jail briefly in MK;SM, but ot for Gwen.

It's the same problem of course with the marriage itself. Its potential was never really explored either. MJ was only a trophy wife and potential hostage. Very rarely was she an actual character written in three-dimensions.

So, in he overall, Marvel's crew don't know what the **** they're doing.