The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[Iceman]

Denmark are about to beat us after slabhead got sent off after half an hour.

 

[B]

I can't help but feel Maguire's form is purely down to his incident in Greece, I know club & country needed him to be fit/ready for the start of the new season, but it wouldn't have hurt to maybe give him another week or 4 off, just to clear his head, reset & refocus.

Seems to be very much a confidence based player & while I obviously feel we were robbed blind paying £80m for him, he's much better than this & the recent form he's been having overall.

This will be a real test of OGS's management skills, because IMO when someone seems so low on confidence, you can't continue to run him out there.. if he gets turned inside out at Newcastle it's only going to make matters worse for him from a fan pressure standpoint.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I can't help but feel Maguire's form is purely down to his incident in Greece, I know club & country needed him to be fit/ready for the start of the new season, but it wouldn't have hurt to maybe give him another week or 4 off, just to clear his head, reset & refocus.

Seems to be very much a confidence based player & while I obviously feel we were robbed blind paying £80m for him, he's much better than this & the recent form he's been having overall.

This will be a real test of OGS's management skills, because IMO when someone seems so low on confidence, you can't continue to run him out there.. if he gets turned inside out at Newcastle it's only going to make matters worse for him from a fan pressure standpoint.

Is it? Maguire wasn't exactly great last season, and the more he played the worse he got. Guy probably has no legs, but a lot of this is how poorly he reads the game imo.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Denmark are about to beat us after slabhead got sent off after half an hour.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[BlackFox]

Denmark are about to beat us after slabhead got sent off after half an hour.

Everything Maguire touches is turning to pure **** at the moment. I think most realize he was never worth £80m in the first place but again United were in a desperate place (huh almost as if a theme has emerged) but everything's going super bad at the moment. At least England have a few more options at the back they can replace him with for a bit.

United fans seem to be srcambaling for a Lindelof and Bailly partnership now which doesnt even bare thinking about, its just a new recipe for disaster in my eye's. Seriously if we dropped every player that had a "bad game" we wouldnt have a team left but Maguire is really going through the ringer at the moment and it could only get worse over the coming weeks if Ole sticks with him which he may well do as that seems to be Ole's way of handling things, keep calm and carry on.....failing.

Its all beginning to unravel and follow similar patterns to before with us.

Some England fans also seem to want Southgate gone now as well I see on social media, knives are sharpening for him too, didnt see it but apparently we didnt play great and deserved to lose anyway. I'm not sure how much better England can get though, yes we have some exciting youth but how many world class players do we actually have in the team. I guess its the style of play though thats the problem.

I guess you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, 2018 world cup must seem like a long time ago now for Southgate when everyone was wearing his waistcoat and we had a ride, (a some what fortunate one in hindsight but still something)

 

[Iceman]

Utd are currently 16th and have 3 tough games after facing Newcastle:

Newcastle (away)
Chelsea (home)
Arsenal (home)
Everton (away)

All mixed in with the start of the CL including games against PSG and Leipzig. This is going to be one of Ole’s toughest tests.

 

[Iceman]

Everything Maguire touches is turning to pure **** at the moment. I think most realize he was never worth £80m in the first place but again United were in a desperate place (huh almost as if a theme has emerged) but everything's going super bad at the moment. At least England have a few more options at the back they can replace him with for a bit.

United fans seem to be srcambaling for a Lindelof and Bailly partnership now which doesnt even bare thinking about, its just a new recipe for disaster in my eye's. Seriously if we dropped every player that had a "bad game" we wouldnt have a team left but Maguire is really going through the ringer at the moment and it could only get worse over the coming weeks if Ole sticks with him which he may well do as that seems to be Ole's way of handling things, keep calm and carry on.....failing.

Its all beginning to unravel and follow similar patterns to before with us.

Some England fans also seem to want Southgate gone now as well I see on social media, knives are sharpening for him too, didnt see it but apparently we didnt play great and deserved to lose anyway. I'm not sure how much better England can get though, yes we have some exciting youth but how many world class players do we actually have in the team. I guess its the style of play though thats the problem.

I guess you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain, 2018 world cup must seem like a long time ago now for Southgate when everyone was wearing his waistcoat and we had a ride, (a some what fortunate one in hindsight but still something)

It really feels like Maguire needs a break. Bad timing if you look at the upcoming fixtures above and especially Bailly’s likelihood of injury. If these games don’t go well the top 4 fight is going to need all resources put into it, as well as the fact that top 2 in the group might also be difficult by that point.

2018 certainly had plenty of luck along the way but regardless, Southgate did a good enough job of uniting the team to deserve a shot at 2021. He’s done well in both the World Cup and Nations League now, even if he might not have the final solution. If he stuffs up 2021 then time to move on before the World Cup.

 

[Iceman]

These never get old.

 

[BlackFox]

It really feels like Maguire needs a break. Bad timing if you look at the upcoming fixtures above and especially Bailly’s likelihood of injury. If these games don’t go well the top 4 fight is going to need all resources put into it, as well as the fact that top 2 in the group might also be difficult by that point.

2018 certainly had plenty of luck along the way but regardless, Southgate did a good enough job of uniting the team to deserve a shot at 2021. He’s done well in both the World Cup and Nations League now, even if he might not have the final solution. If he stuffs up 2021 then time to move on before the World Cup.

SAF was the master of dropping players, Schemichel was sent on holiday for a month when underperforming and came back a different player, Beckham would be dropped at times when not fully focused and Giggs too. The luxury of course was that SAF could trust the player in his place to do a good job for the team, Ole doesnt have that as wherever he looks round the dressing room their are players failing or also in need of drop and he needs to field 11 players It really is a dire situation for him at the moment and that decent end to the season feel food factor has quickly dissolved in a matter of 3 games. Things can soon swing round if they win the next three league games but my word you would have to be strong willed to put money on that happening at the moment, especially with the chopping and changing of the team that will now happen with injuries and suspensions and new players coming in. It feels like the ship hit the iceberg against Spurs and now the band are getting ready to play for the final time.

Yeah it was a bit of double edged sword for Southgate, everyone was loving going far in the competition but it sort of made it seem better than we were avoiding any of the decent sides to the semi's when old habits kicked in again and then we were being built up again as big contenders for the Euro's in 2020 with all these great youngsters coming through. England also seem to be "almosts" is about as good as they can get but when the real crunch comes the big boys always will win out over us. Maybe it is time for Southgate to go for his own piece of mind as well because we have seen how nasty these things can get in the past when England managers start to faulter but then its probably his dream job so would never walk from it, much like Ole in some ways.

 

[B]

Is it? Maguire wasn't exactly great last season, and the more he played the worse he got. Guy probably has no legs, but a lot of this is how poorly he reads the game imo.

I think so, I mean so far this season he's looked like Titus Bramble or Pascal Cygan he's been that poor. He's better than that, I don't think he's anywhere in the upper echelon of CB's but he's ordinarily, at bare minimum, trustworthy.. which he hasn't been so far this season at all IMO.

 

[Iceman]

Maguire can be a 7 or 8/10 defender at his best. Not a 9 or 10. Can still have a good career at Utd IMO if they can handle him well, but it will be difficult without decent cover.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Santos loses sponsor over Robinho signing

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Man United sign Pogba to contract extension

 

[Zantera]

I wouldn't call myself a Pogba hater but I feel I can count the amount of good games I've seen him in on one hand and he's been here what, 3 or 4 years now? Add to that the fact he takes every chance he gets to talk about Real Madrid or Juventus and it's just hard to feel any warm feelings towards the guy.

He's not really a 'problem' to me but unlike a Lingard or Mata I think we could probably get some nice money that we could (in theory) get a better player for. We should get rid of players like Lingard and Mata before Pogba but I doubt anyone would even pay us pocket change for them.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I wouldn't call myself a Pogba hater but I feel I can count the amount of good games I've seen him in on one hand and he's been here what, 3 or 4 years now? Add to that the fact he takes every chance he gets to talk about Real Madrid or Juventus and it's just hard to feel any warm feelings towards the guy.

He's not really a 'problem' to me but unlike a Lingard or Mata I think we could probably get some nice money that we could (in theory) get a better player for. We should get rid of players like Lingard and Mata before Pogba but I doubt anyone would even pay us pocket change for them.

To me, that is unfair. I think a lot of what Pogba does goes underappreciated, but even then he has had some incredible streaks where he has obviously been great. Like his first year back where he was quite good for the vast majority of the season, or his first 10ish games under Ole, and at least one more occasion I can't remember right now. The issue with Pogba is, we can't seemingly get talent comparable to him, so selling him feels like a bad idea. But there is also the issue that you need players around him to be most effective and we don't seem willing ot buy such layers.

 

[Iceman]

Fred details impact of damning Tottenham defeat on Man Utd dressing room

 

[Iceman]

To me, that is unfair. I think a lot of what Pogba does goes underappreciated, but even then he has had some incredible streaks where he has obviously been great. Like his first year back where he was quite good for the vast majority of the season, or his first 10ish games under Ole, and at least one more occasion I can't remember right now. The issue with Pogba is, we can't seemingly get talent comparable to him, so selling him feels like a bad idea. But there is also the issue that you need players around him to be most effective and we don't seem willing ot buy such layers.

That all sounds like a good reason to sell. His value in the market is higher than how he is performing at Utd because everyone knows he is better than that. You will get more money for him because of his real worth, which Utd may never fully uncover. With Woodward and Ole he is going to go to waste and as he ages be worth half the value by the time he does move on. Utd are balking at Sancho (one of the most obvious transfers ever IMO) so it's unlikely you're going to be able to surround him with the players he needs.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That all sounds like a good reason to sell. His value in the market is higher than how he is performing at Utd because everyone knows he is better than that. You will get more money for him because of his real worth, which Utd may never fully uncover. With Woodward and Ole he is going to go to waste and as he ages be worth half the value by the time he does move on. Utd are balking at Sancho (one of the most obvious transfers ever IMO) so it's unlikely you're going to be able to surround him with the players he needs.

Then why sell him? What is the money worth if we aren't going to use him?

 

[Iceman]

Then why sell him? What is the money worth if we aren't going to use him?

I didn’t quite understand that. The money raised from selling or something else?

I’m saying sell because you’ll get more because he’s worth a lot more to certain other clubs that can unlock his potential than he actually is at Utd where he is an under-utilised asset. To try and make it clearer let’s say he’s a 150m player who is only giving 80m worth of value to Utd due to the circumstances at the club and the fit the club is for him. Like Di Maria was also a bad fit at Utd but still had value to other big clubs with a different style and existing playerbase. Other underperforming players at Utd don’t have this higher value to other clubs. They’re just bad lol.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I didn’t quite understand that. The money raised from selling or something else?

I’m saying sell because you’ll get more because he’s worth a lot more to certain other clubs that can unlock his potential than he actually is at Utd where he is an under-utilised asset. To try and make it clearer let’s say he’s a 150m player who is only giving 80m worth of value to Utd due to the circumstances at the club and the fit the club is for him. Like Di Maria was also a bad fit at Utd but still had value to other big clubs with a different style and existing playerbase. Other underperforming players at Utd don’t have this higher value to other clubs. They’re just bad lol.

Whatever money we'd get for him wouldn't be properly reinvested and certainly wouldn't get us a comparable player. If I knew we had a legit manager, who'd be allowed to use the money, I'd be for it. What we'd most likely get though is the sale, the purchase of players of less value who don't help us win, with the rest of the money pocketed.

He might leave anyways, but selling him doesn't help us "win".

 

[Iceman]

Whatever money we'd get for him wouldn't be properly reinvested

I guess this only works in a scenario where sensible people who are good at their job are running the club. Otherwise this would apply to any money raised.

and certainly wouldn't get us a comparable player. If I knew we had a legit manager, who'd be allowed to use the money, I'd be for it. What we'd most likely get though is the sale, the purchase of players of less value who don't help us win, with the rest of the money pocketed.

He might leave anyways, but selling him doesn't help us "win".

If part of the money is pocketed then the fans are losing out and the net effect of the transfer for them would be negative. My suggestion was based on it being good value because the player is worth more than what we are seeing (unlike some of your genuinely bad players), but none of this is really worth me saying given that Woodward would just use the money to overpay massively for someone inferior, who was available for half the price before he started his unique bargaining process.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I guess this only works in a scenario where sensible people who are good at their job are running the club. Otherwise this would apply to any money raised.




If part of the money is pocketed then the fans are losing out and the net effect of the transfer for them would be negative. My suggestion was based on it being good value because the player is worth more than what we are seeing (unlike some of your genuinely bad players), but none of this is really worth me saying given that Woodward would just use the money to overpay massively for someone inferior, who was available for half the price before he started his unique bargaining process.

Yeah, pretty much. You were viewing the situation with football in mind. Our club doesn't really do that anymore. So in practice, your point is sound and I'd say right. The problem is the Glazers and Woodward.

After the Sancho situation, I am kind of over trusting them in anyway. Even if they aren't intentionally messing this up, they are too stupid to make it work and for every theoretically Bruno or Pogba, we are going to end up with 10 guys that don't help, that we paid way too much for. I still can't believe how much we spent on Maguire.

 

[Zantera]

I just feel like Pogba is very comparable to Özil, although personally I would say Özil was a much better player in his prime. But the type of player you have to accommodate to get the best out of. And that's not necessarily the worst thing but in our case we don't really have those things. He's by no means a bad player but I can't say he's lived up to his price tag or reputation. As someone who watches him week in and week out, I just can't get my head around the Real Madrid/Juventus rumors. Sure, he performs better with France (usually) but surely there's 10-15 other, younger, more promising, more consistently performing midfielders valued a lot less that would be better targets for these clubs?

But ultimately I think even if we sold Pogba, I wouldn't put faith in Woodward to actually replace him with someone good, so selling him might be a bit pointless anyways. Considering we replaced Ronaldo with Obertan, Valencia and Owen, I would expect us to replace Pogba with Drinkwater and/or Rakitic.

 

[Zantera]

Liverpool get an early lead but after an injury to VVD Everton comes back and it's 1-1 at half time.

Think Everton could win this but the more important thing is the injury of VVD. If he's out for a while (I guess too early to know yet) it could be a massive blow to Liverpool's season.