The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

[Iceman]

10 man West Brom take a 5-1 tonking against Palace.

 

[Iceman]

Leicester get a 90th minute winner against Sheff Utd. 2-1 the final score as Sheff Utd’s crisis continues. What a shame after doing so well in recent seasons.

 

[Iceman]

Spurs beat Arsenal 2-0 with Son and Kane scoring and are now 2 points clear at the top, while Arsenal drop to 15th.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Always Milwall.

Millwall 'dismayed' after fans boo taking a knee

 

[PepS]

Really don't know where we go from here (except down). There just really doesn't seem to be a viable solution for us.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Bruno might be the best player at United since Ronaldo. I don't even think this is that crazy to say at this point.

 

[Iceman]

Liverpool beat Wolves 4-0. At the mine tit could be between them, Spurs and Chelsea. But really if Utd and City win their game in hand they are right amongst it again. Leicester are still there too. It’s only Arsenal who are adrift right now.

 

[Iceman]

Bruno might be the best player at United since Ronaldo. I don't even think this is that crazy to say at this point.

Most influential, sure. His influence on the team is as big as any one player has had so soon after joining a club.

 

[B]

We were woeful again & extremely fortunate on Saturday. That 1st half was absolutely abysmal & we were lucky to go in at half time only 1-0 down.

We gave the ball away so cheaply it was infuriating, Scott McTominay in particular didn't seem to touch the ball that much in the 1st half, but when he did he seemed to either pass the ball straight to West Ham or feed suicide balls into Martial's feet when he was 30 yards out with his back to the goal, with defenders hanging all over him. How van de Beek was pulled off at half time, before McTominay is absolutely beyond me.

I also wouldn't have brought Cavani off at the half because he was the only forward offering any sort of vague movement but apparently he picked up a knock. Rashford & Fernandes changed the game with their movement & our other players that were useless in the 1st half played significantly better in the 2nd.

Once the 1st goal went in, the tails went up & we started to tear West Ham up. We were fortunate for the 1st goal as I thought it looked like it had quite obviously went out, but I get that VAR couldn't definitively say it had went out of play by the angles it had available & the ball left view in 2 of them, but even with those I thought it looked pretty clear.

It amazes me how close we are to actually being involved in a title race given how poor we've been this season. We play City next week at home so we'll soon know if we're involved or not involved after that.

 

[Iceman]

We were woeful again & extremely fortunate on Saturday. That 1st half was absolutely abysmal & we were lucky to go in at half time only 1-0 down.

We gave the ball away so cheaply it was infuriating, Scott McTominay in particular didn't seem to touch the ball that much in the 1st half, but when he did he seemed to either pass the ball straight to West Ham or feed suicide balls into Martial's feet when he was 30 yards out with his back to the goal, with defenders hanging all over him. How van de Beek was pulled off at half time, before McTominay is absolutely beyond me.

I also wouldn't have brought Cavani off at the half because he was the only forward offering any sort of vague movement but apparently he picked up a knock. Rashford & Fernandes changed the game with their movement & our other players that were useless in the 1st half played significantly better in the 2nd.

Once the 1st goal went in, the tails went up & we started to tear West Ham up. We were fortunate for the 1st goal as I thought it looked like it had quite obviously went out, but I get that VAR couldn't definitively say it had went out of play by the angles it had available & the ball left view in 2 of them, but even with those I thought it looked pretty clear.

It amazes me how close we are to actually being involved in a title race given how poor we've been this season. We play City next week at home so we'll soon know if we're involved or not involved after that.

The other top teams have been poor or off their best too. It’s such an unpredictable season so far that it’s all still up for grabs from anyone who puts a run together. Strange feeling after recent seasons where City and Liverpool barely dropped points at all early on and massive gaps started opening up.

 

[Iceman]

Really don't know where we go from here (except down). There just really doesn't seem to be a viable solution for us.

Surely it has to turn round at some point, at least to some extent. Do you have easier fixtures coming up?

 

[Zantera]

When discussing managers IN vs OUT it's easy to get carried away in either direction. However, the problem isn't Arsenal having a "transitional season" and being 6th or 7th, it's the fact that they are 15th (!) and can barely score a goal. Zouma in Chelsea has scored more goals than Aubameyang. Arsenal have more faulty throw ins than goals, the meme stats go on and on.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of bashing players who aren't performing but not analyzing why they aren't performing. I don't think Arsenal has a title challenging team but with a decent manager they should definitely be in the running for a 4th spot, possibly in the 6-8th area (they are transitioning after all) but you still have some decent players who are just not performing.

The issue right now isn't even that Arsenal aren't on the same level as some of the other big dogs, it's the fact that they are below teams like Newcastle, Crystal Palace and Aston Villa.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Lampard, Ole and Arteta are pretty much the same quality of manager. Lampard and Ole have talent to bail them out not being all that good at their job, that Arteta doesn't. Arsenal are just rather poor all around at this point. What kills me about Ole is our squad is far from perfect, but someone much better would be doing a lot better with this squad imo.

 

[Iceman]

When discussing managers IN vs OUT it's easy to get carried away in either direction. However, the problem isn't Arsenal having a "transitional season" and being 6th or 7th, it's the fact that they are 15th (!) and can barely score a goal. Zouma in Chelsea has scored more goals than Aubameyang. Arsenal have more faulty throw ins than goals, the meme stats go on and on.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of bashing players who aren't performing but not analyzing why they aren't performing. I don't think Arsenal has a title challenging team but with a decent manager they should definitely be in the running for a 4th spot, possibly in the 6-8th area (they are transitioning after all) but you still have some decent players who are just not performing.

The issue right now isn't even that Arsenal aren't on the same level as some of the other big dogs, it's the fact that they are below teams like Newcastle, Crystal Palace and Aston Villa.

Something definitely wrong if Auba isn’t scoring.

 

[Zantera]

I have more faith in Lampard to become a great manager than I do with Ole/Arteta from what I have seen so far, but I would still agree that all of them have been given a huge job based on very little.

In Chelsea's case it's the romantic nostalgia of one of their best ever players coming back to lead them.

In MU it was a needed change from negative atmosphere to positive vibes with Ole.

In Arsenal - I'll be honest it feels more and more like the cheap option after all.

There's managers like Pochettino and Allegri without jobs and you also have IMO better managers than these 3 leading 'lesser' PL teams, whether it's Rodgers, Ancelotti or my personal favorite Hasenhüttl. IMO either of these 3 would be great at Arsenal.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Something definitely wrong if Auba isn’t scoring.

He's older and just got paid. You'd expect this from a guy whose game is so based around athleticism. This had the Ozil problem written all over it. That it has come to pass so quick feels insane, but I always expected it.

 

[Iceman]

He's older and just got paid. You'd expect this from a guy whose game is so based around athleticism. This had the Ozil problem written all over it. That it has come to pass so quick feels insane, but I always expected it.

Good points. Shame if those are the reasons. I hope there’s a chance we see at least 70/80% of his best going forward somehow.

 

[Zantera]

Arsenal are poorly run but they've also had some bad luck with their decisions of which players to stand by and which players to let go. They stood by Özil and Auba so far with contracts that have ultimately (so far) screwed them over. They let players like Ramsey and Giroud go, who both probably could have offered something in this squad.

 

[Iceman]

Gary Lineker sends Mino Raiola blunt message after he confirms Paul Pogba's Man Utd exit (msn.com)

 

[Iceman]

Arsenal are poorly run but they've also had some bad luck with their decisions of which players to stand by and which players to let go. They stood by Özil and Auba so far with contracts that have ultimately (so far) screwed them over. They let players like Ramsey and Giroud go, who both probably could have offered something in this squad.

Apart from Aubameyang, these sound like regular bad decisions rather than just bad luck.

 

[PepS]

Surely it has to turn round at some point, at least to some extent. Do you have easier fixtures coming up?

Well we have Burnley, Southampton, Everton, Chelsea and Brighton in the league, with an EFL cup tie against City thrown in before the end of the year. I'd like to think Arteta would get at least until the end of the season to see if he can turn things around. However, if we are in an even worse situation than we currently are now after these games, then I feel the powers that be will have no choice but to part company with him in the new year. The prospects of us being involved in a relegation battle this season are very real, I feel.

 

[PepS]

When discussing managers IN vs OUT it's easy to get carried away in either direction. However, the problem isn't Arsenal having a "transitional season" and being 6th or 7th, it's the fact that they are 15th (!) and can barely score a goal. Zouma in Chelsea has scored more goals than Aubameyang. Arsenal have more faulty throw ins than goals, the meme stats go on and on.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of bashing players who aren't performing but not analyzing why they aren't performing. I don't think Arsenal has a title challenging team but with a decent manager they should definitely be in the running for a 4th spot, possibly in the 6-8th area (they are transitioning after all) but you still have some decent players who are just not performing.

The issue right now isn't even that Arsenal aren't on the same level as some of the other big dogs, it's the fact that they are below teams like Newcastle, Crystal Palace and Aston Villa.

I completely agree with you. What's very interesting to consider though is whether it is the fact that we have so far gotten the wrong manager(s) to come in (post-Wenger), or whether it is in fact the actual personnel and individuals that make up the team, and even the club that are the problem.

Emery has gone onto Villarreal who are flying high at the moment in La Liga, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Arteta were to leave, move onto another team and get them performing better than he could us. There is an evident rot with us right now, and rather than addressing and fixing the issues, we just seem to be adding to them.

 

[PepS]

Lampard, Ole and Arteta are pretty much the same quality of manager. Lampard and Ole have talent to bail them out not being all that good at their job, that Arteta doesn't. Arsenal are just rather poor all around at this point. What kills me about Ole is our squad is far from perfect, but someone much better would be doing a lot better with this squad imo.

I agree with the latter part of what you are saying. As for the former, I would probably give Ole and Frank a bit more credence at this point, primarily because this is Arteta's first big job, whereas both Ole and Frank have cut their teeth and gotten a bit of experience at other clubs before moving onto these big jobs. But yes, I do agree that both Ole and Frank have the luxury of being able to acquire quality talent easier than Arteta does.

 

[PepS]

I have more faith in Lampard to become a great manager than I do with Ole/Arteta from what I have seen so far, but I would still agree that all of them have been given a huge job based on very little.

In Chelsea's case it's the romantic nostalgia of one of their best ever players coming back to lead them.

In MU it was a needed change from negative atmosphere to positive vibes with Ole.

In Arsenal - I'll be honest it feels more and more like the cheap option after all.

There's managers like Pochettino and Allegri without jobs and you also have IMO better managers than these 3 leading 'lesser' PL teams, whether it's Rodgers, Ancelotti or my personal favorite Hasenhüttl. IMO either of these 3 would be great at Arsenal.

I agree completely, especially the part about Arsenal going for the cheapest option.

The 3 manager's you mentioned towards the end I would be more than content with any. I feel that we have no chance of appointing a top drawer manager (such as an Allegri, Pochettino, etc) at this point in time, given the graveness of our situation. And I also feel that we currently would have no chance to be able to lure any of the three manager's you mentioned either. Considering the mess that we are in, coupled with each of them being at teams that are better, why would they want to join us?

 

[PepS]

He's older and just got paid. You'd expect this from a guy whose game is so based around athleticism. This had the Ozil problem written all over it. That it has come to pass so quick feels insane, but I always expected it.

Yeah, I feel we've dropped a massive clanger yet again. I guess this was why Wenger was so reluctant to give big contracts to players approaching their twilight years.