The Penguin The Penguin on HBO - General Discussion

[Invader Joker]

Invader, it does not make the entire show pointless the point of the show is Colin Farrell lol. Colin Farrell is the star attraction not Batman. It is a vehicle for him and his performance.

Sure, if the show isn't well written and engaging on its own terms. All of that becomes immediately irrelevant if its good. Which it looks like it is! There are plenty of Gotham City set stories that don't feature Batman in a terribly prominent role (one of the best, if not the best, Batman comics ever is Gotham Central where his role is comparable to what it'll probably be here if he does make an appearance). Obviously Batman is the central and most important part of Batman lore but it's not like doing Gotham set stories where he's a bit player or off-screen is unheard of or even uncommon.

The problem here is that Gotham Central existed in a world and dealt with stories where Batman's absence was extremely easy to justify. They were using comic Batman that always goes off into doing Justice League missions, dealing with the most over the top villains imaginable, and constantly teaming up with other heroes and things like that.

Here tho, not only is it a Batman whose literal only focus is the exact type of underground crime stuff happening here, but one that's coming right out of the first movie where again, in the very last minutes of said film a really big deal was made out of the fact he'd have to deal with the events that are going on in this show. You cannot justify his absence in any way that even remotely makes sense or doesn't feel like it breaks the character they so carefully set up in the first film and whose name is in all the advertising for this show. You just can't. And what I think is more damning about it is that I don't think there's any good reason for the people involved to not put Batman here unless they really wanted to go full pretentious going "this is a big boy show mkay! No Batman here" which I think I don't have to explain why that'd be lame.


To your Gotham Central comparison, I will at least give you that if this was the Gotham PD show originally pitched his absence would make more sense and be easier to justify since it was set in Year One and the movie established that Batman didn't really work that closely with the police till the events of the film. But this isn't that. Batman knew there was a gang war like this about to happen and was actively worried about it and acknowledged he'd have to deal with it. The show takes place a week after the Batman. The lead is a character Batman interacted with several times throughout the film. His absence is impossible to justify in a satisfying way. And you can dismiss the "This show doesn't have to work as a continuation of The Batman" all you want but that is its main appeal.
The poster literally has this:

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The problem here is that Gotham Central existed in a world and dealt with stories where Batman's absence was extremely easy to justify. They were using comic Batman that always goes off into doing Justice League missions, dealing with the most over the top villains imaginable, and constantly teaming up with other heroes and things like that.

Here tho, not only is it a Batman whose literal only focus is the exact type of underground crime stuff happening here, but one that's coming right out of the first movie where again, in the very last minutes of said film a really big deal was made out of the fact he'd have to deal with the events that are going on in this show. You cannot justify his absence in any way that even remotely makes sense or doesn't feel like it breaks the character they so carefully set up in the first film and whose name is in all the advertising for this show. You just can't. And what I think is more damning about it is that I don't think there's any good reason for the people involved to not put Batman here unless they really wanted to go full pretentious going "this is a big boy show mkay! No Batman here" which I think I don't have to explain why that'd be lame.


To your Gotham Central comparison, I will at least give you that if this was the Gotham PD show originally pitched his absence would make more sense and be easier to justify since it was set in Year One and the movie established that Batman didn't really work that closely with the police till the events of the film. But this isn't that.

It's not pretentious, it's just doing a different kind of story. Stories are not logic contests between you and the writer: if the point of the show is to do a riff on Gotham set stories that don't or at least do not prominently feature Batman - of which there is a rich tradition - then it makes sense, especially if there's a concerted effort to save Batman as a Movie Only Thing which there probably is. We also don't know all the BTS stuff - there could be any number of reasons Batman isn't in this in a major role (and he isn't in this in a major role, we have zero reason to think he is).

Again, you can easily justify his absence from being on screen for the series by the implication he is dealing with Batman **** in the background. Whether it's this situation or other problems created by the post-flood chaos. We simply do not know or have any indication of how the show is going to handle Batman but there are a million ways to handwave his absence or work it into the fabric of the story as a background element. In terms of it setting up Part II we also don't know enough about the plot to know in what ways it does this but we have some indicators: primarily cementing whatever position Penguin is in come Part II and probably setting up Clayface - so there you go: that's why its "the next chapter in The Batman Saga".

I also, honestly, on a creative level think less is more with Batman. It'd be great to see Rob show up here - preferably briefly - but I much prefer Batman being a character you only get to see every four or five years like James Bond.

 

[Invader Joker]

It's not pretentious, it's just doing a different kind of story. Stories are not logic contests between you and the writer: if the point of the show is to do a riff on Gotham set stories that don't or at least do not prominently feature Batman - of which there is a rich tradition - then it makes sense, especially if there's a concerted effort to save Batman as a Movie Only Thing which there probably is. We also don't know all the BTS stuff - there could be any number of reasons Batman isn't in this in a major role (and he isn't in this in a major role, we have zero reason to think he is).

And it's also telling a story that they're literally advertising with the tagline "THE NEXT CHAPTER IN THE BATMAN SAGA", dude. I'm literally judging them based on what their advertised intentions are. If this is the next chapter in The Batman Saga, then it absolutely should make sense and be consistent with the chapter prior which was the movie lol. If you were reading a book and suddenly the next chapter on it featured stuff that made no sense whatsoever compared to the prior chapter or felt half-assed it'd be rightful to criticize.

And also, James Gunn already signalled that Batman is indeed allowed to appear in TV shows.

Again, you can easily justify his absence from being on screen for the series by the implication he is dealing with Batman **** in the background. Whether it's this situation or other problems created by the post-flood chaos. We simply do not know or have any indication of how the show is going to handle Batman but there are a million ways to handwave his absence or work it into the fabric of the story as a background element.

And there's no way to do that without it being really, really lame or goofy given the way the last film ended. Again: Batman dealt with Oz during the entire last movie. The Falcone crime family is the entire reason that **** went down the way it did. Any explanation for him to be absent would be ridiculously dumb.

In terms of it setting up Part II we also don't know enough about the plot to know in what ways it does this but we have some indicators: primarily cementing whatever position Penguin is in come Part II and probably setting up Clayface - so there you go: that's why its "the next chapter in The Batman Saga".

Well then you just signalled my actual fear with this show: It's just gonna be filler and set up nonsense. I don't want that **** lol. I want something that actually feels like a significant continuation if they're gonna be adding 8 whole hours to this universe and advertising it like this.

I also, honestly, on a creative level think less is more with Batman. It'd be great to see Rob show up here - preferably briefly - but I much prefer Batman being a character you only get to see every four or five years like James Bond.

And I could not care about that. I only care about these stories making sense and this attempt at a mini connected universe to actually feel cohesive and coherent so this "epic crime saga" is actually satisfying as a whole.

 

[Eddie Dean]

The show is called Penguin not Batman!!!

 

[Invader Joker]

The show is called Penguin not Batman!!!

 

[Eddie Dean]

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Quick question why isn’t Mad Max the main character in Furosa: a Mad Max epic?

 

[Invader Joker]

Quick question why isn’t Mad Max the main character in Furosa: a Mad Max epic?

When in the actual **** did I say I wanted Batman to be the main character, Eddie?

 

[Eddie Dean]

Ok, here’s a better question: why doesn’t Mad Max feature into the plot of Furosa: a Mad Max saga?

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

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But surely you realize 'The Batman' in 'The Batman Saga' is a reference to this film franchise and not our stalwart Dark Knight?

 

[SwordOfMorning]

And it's also telling a story that they're literally advertising with the tagline "THE NEXT CHAPTER IN THE BATMAN SAGA", dude. I'm literally judging them based on what their advertised intentions are. If this is the next chapter in The Batman Saga, then it absolutely should make sense and be consistent with the chapter prior which was the movie lol. If you were reading a book and suddenly the next chapter on it featured stuff that made no sense whatsoever compared to the prior chapter or felt half-assed it'd be rightful to criticize.

And also, James Gunn already signalled that Batman is indeed allowed to appear in TV shows.



And there's no way to do that without it being really, really lame or goofy given the way the last film ended. Again: Batman dealt with Oz during the entire last movie. The Falcone crime family is the entire reason that **** went down the way it did. Any explanation for him to be absent would be ridiculously dumb.

For all we know there are multiple points in the series where Batman is dealing with Falcone **** off-screen or in some implied capacity. We simply do not know how this show will handle Batman at this point so all we're doing right now is you imagining a scenario where they bungle it and me imagining one where they don't.

Well then you just signalled my actual fear with this show: It's just gonna be filler and set up nonsense. I don't want that **** lol. I want something that actually feels like a significant continuation if they're gonna be adding 8 whole hours to this universe and advertising it like this.

None of that matters if the shows characters, writing and acting are good. I don't really see it as mattering all that much whether it "advances the plot" if it's well made, compelling show with its own story, themes and ideas. Quality inherently validates it.

Also, look, I think on some level you and I just care about different things with these movies/shows. My primary interest in them is watching great actors sink their teeth into these larger than life, very theatrical roles. I'm not like mega hyped for this show but I'm inherently more interested in a show that exists to show off Colin Farrell being amazing than I am almost any other CBM on the horizon - it's just a fundamentally stronger starting position. All I need this show to be is well written and deliver strong, compelling characterization of its lead.

And I could not care about that. I only care about these stories making sense and this attempt at a mini connected universe to actually feel cohesive and coherent so this "epic crime saga" is actually satisfying as a whole.

Again, I think that's just where we differ in terms of what we value and are interested in.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Ok, here’s a better question: why doesn’t Mad Max feature into the plot of Furosa: a Mad Max saga?

Max's role in Furiosa is about what I'm expecting from Batman in this tbh: brief and played by Rob's stuntman!

 

[Eddie Dean]

The chapter designation is actually extremely apt for a new branch of the story that follows a new character in order to provide greater depth to a member of the supporting cast. Something that happens in books all the time.

 

[antsman41]

 

[SwordOfMorning]

The chapter designation is actually extremely apt for a new branch of the story that follows a new character in order to provide greater depth to a member of the supporting cast. Something that happens in books all the time.

Yep. That is hopefully the actual relevance of this rather than just basic mechanical plot stuff: adding depth, complexity and detail to a great character who might not ever get a ton of screentime in the films.

 

[antsman41]

The show will be entirely nonsensical if Batman doesn't appear. So he better.

It’ll be the Gotham Central style… word of mouth, small glimpses in the background, and then an appearance in the finale.

 

[OrbOfConfusion]

And I’m sure there will be some indication of what Batman is doing even if it is just a handwave.

He'll probably be at home-

 

[Invader Joker]

I think part of my cynicism for the show is that I still think the visuals are absolutely awful and uninteresting.

 

[Invader Joker]

It’ll be the Gotham Central style… word of mouth, small glimpses in the background, and then an appearance in the finale.

Which makes no sense whatsoever with how they left things off in The Batman. And how they left things off in The Batman is the entire set-up for this show. That's my issue.

 

[Shinobi Shaw]

All this talk about Battinson and I just want to see a simple umbrella gun.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I think part of my cynicism for the show is that I still think the visuals are absolutely awful and uninteresting.

I'm sorry, dude, I normally see where you're coming from even if I wildly disagree but you're just so wrong about this. It literally just looks like The Batman made on a smaller budget with cheaper cameras.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Which makes no sense whatsoever with how they left things off in The Batman. And how they left thing off in The Batman is the entire set-up for this show. That's my issue.

I mean, he can be dealing with the fallout of the flood in a variety of ways and also have a role in the presumed gang war that takes place in The Penguin in a manner that does not require the very expensive Robert Pattinson to be in half the episodes lol. Him being a background element with maybe one big scene does not inherently contradict the movie's ending.

 

[Invader Joker]

I'm sorry, dude, I normally see where you're coming from even if I wildly disagree but you're just so wrong about this. It literally just looks like The Batman made on a smaller budget with cheaper cameras.

Yeah it looks like someone trying to imitate The Batman's look and creating really awful, uninteresting visuals with bad atmosphere in the process.

 

[Invader Joker]

I mean, he can be dealing with the fallout of the flood in a variety of ways and also have a role in the presumed gang war that takes place in The Penguin in a manner that does not require the very expensive Robert Pattinson to be in half the episodes lol

I don't need him to be in half the episodes. I just need him to have /something/ significant in the show, whatever form that takes, especially since he already knows Oz. I'd be totally fine if he just appears in the pilot to do some sort of deal with Oz or tell him something that'd justify him being absent physically in most of the rest of the series.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

Yeah it looks like someone trying to imitate The Batman's look and creating really awful, uninteresting visuals with bad atmosphere in the process.

I legit have no idea what you're talking about on this. I, admittedly, place aesthetics and cinematography an extremely distant third to writing and acting but it's so clearly better shot (admittedly a lowbar) than a vast majority of comic book streaming shows. It just looks like a normal, higher quality streaming show doing The Batman's style on a budget which is exactly how you'd expect it to look. I'm not saying it looks amazing, but it looks good and that is more than sufficient.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

I don't need him to be in half the episodes. I just need him to have /something/ significant in the show, whatever form that takes, especially since he already knows Oz. I'd be totally fine if he just appears in the pilot to do some sort of deal with Oz or tell him something that'd justify him being absent physically in most of the rest of the series.

If Pattinson does have a scene in the show I suspect it will be something like this.