The politically incorrect thread

In terms of things which are out of an individual's control, that'd likely be true. For example, racism is 100% wrong, because you're unjustly judging someone based on their skin color (which they cannot consciously control). But wghen dealing with a drug dealer, for example, that person is perfectly capable of choosing otherwise. As such, telling him his actions are wrong isn't a personal attack; it's a criticism of the path he's chosen, not the dealer himself.

You have NOTHING to base the idea that homosexuality is a choice on other than your own narrow views. There has been scientific research done which has been able to link homosexuality to genetics, it has not been entirely conclusive but at the same time that is far more telling than YOUR opinion that people "just choose to be gay."

The Bible doesn't even say that homosexuality is a choice, so it is obvious that you are only basing your opinion of homosexuals on what you personally refuse to understand. I mean, do you do that with everyone who is different from you?

"Oh, those Mexicans-- they speak Spanish when they can choose to speak English!"

"Oh, those Chinese peasants-- why do they eat rice all the time when I can eat steak and potatoes? They can choose to have different food if they want!"

No, that'd only be the case if displaying crosses and such wasn't right to begin with. To the best of my knowledge, there's no mandatory law in this country against displaying a cross in a public place. If there were, all the folks walking around with crosses on their necklace would be hauled off to court.

A cross SHOULDN'T be displayed in a public place, though-- you fail to see the POINT. There are people who do not subscribe to the Ten Commandments, why should they have to see them every time they enter a courthouse, which is not suppose to endorse any religion? Displaying the Ten Commandments endorses Judeo-Christian values, but if a Buddhist walks into a court house, what kind of a message does that say to that person? It says that the courts endorse the Ten Commandments over the Eight Noble truths.

During the last few years, many judges have been unjustly ruling that such symbols are a deliberate infringment against nonbelivers, or people of other faiths. I always found it rather strange that only Christian symbols "inherently offend", while Muslim, Hindu, and Jewish displays are left alone.

That is such garbage.

NO Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. relics have been put up on display in public institutions, which are funded and overseen by the federal government. You are simply making things up to try and make a point.

How so? Some of these places literally instruct their employees to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", even if a customer greets them with the latter first. The warped reasoning behind this is the retailers don't want to offend non-Christians. Then when the Christians get offended, they're ignored. Where's the justice in that?

Do you not understand the fundamentals of business in this country? First of all, employers can ONLY suggest that their employees say "Happy Holidays" over any of the other phrases. They are NOT allowed to fire their employees for saying "merry Christmas." Ultimately, the employee is the one who gets to decide which phrase they are going to use.

Second, and most importantly, the reason why "happy holidays" is used more than "merry Christmas" is because of diversity. I worked in an office with more Jews than there were Christians. And sometimes, it was hard to tell who was which religion. So, how much of an ass would it make me if I went up to someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas and say, "Merry Christmas"?

Much if a Muslim came up to you and said, "Happy Ramadan," you would probably look at them strangely... that is, if you're not too busy trying to convert them.

As far as I know, I've never said to anyone, "You can't be gay." That's their choice. What I have said is, "Homosexuality, in and of itself, is wrong and a sin against God". There's a difference.

Not really :huh:

You're saying that God will punish people for being homosexuals, and that in order for them to go to Heaven, they must renounce their homosexuality. Which is nonsense, considering NOTHING like that is mentioned in the doctrine which you claim is the "word of God."

The Constitution never guarantees any American that right, be it corporate or otherwise. People do not have any legal or moral right to a lack of accountability.

YOU are not God.

Does this need to be repeated?

YOU are NOT GOD.

Therefore, you SHOULD NOT be telling people how to live their lives, you should not judge them for how they live.

And do not give me any of that snotty, self-righteous "I'm not judging them; I'm just telling them that they are wrong" nonsense because YOU ARE judging people for how they live their lives. Telling a homosexual that his lifestyle is wrong IS passing a judgment on him.

Instead of saying "in my opinion, and according to my religion, homosexuality is wrong," you are speaking in absolutes, FORCING your beliefs on to others.

There are MILLIONS, if not BILLIONS, of people who do not believe what you believe. Why should their BELIEFS be considered any more prevalent than yours? Why should we let YOUR beliefs govern society when THEIR beliefs are not similar to yours?

In a sense, you are saying that you know better than the rest of the world. And that is very, very, very arrogant.
 
Discrimination would be refusing to hire someone for a job exclusively because they're black, white, gay, straight, Christian, atheistic, whatever. However, if there's another reason that merits such action, there's no discrimination (i.e., their resume doesn't qualify, or they don't have the necessary work experience).

Correct.

When dealing with morals, though, it becomes a little more complex. For example, would it be discriminatory for the manager of a Christian bookstore to request a employee's resignation if they tell him they're gay?

Yep.

I don't think so, because according to Christianity, homosexuality is wrong, and for that person to remain employed there would serve as an inherent moral conflict. The loss of their job wouldn't be due to a personal issue, but rather a spiritual one.

According to the Bible, we are all sinners, and no sin is greater than any other. The Book of Leviticus which forbids homosexuality also forbids shaving and eating pork and shellfish. It would be hypocritical to request the resignation of an employee for being homosexual as if that sin is greater than the sins of the other employees, while the Bible itself says no such thing. Is that Christian bookstore also going to require its employees to abstain from eating pork and shellfish? I think not. There is really no justification, even within the pages of the Bible itself, for this incessant, hypocritical, and convenient singling out of homosexuals.
 
Discrimination would be refusing to hire someone for a job exclusively because they're black, white, gay, straight, Christian, atheistic, whatever. However, if there's another reason that merits such action, there's no discrimination (i.e., their resume doesn't qualify, or they don't have the necessary work experience).

When dealing with morals, though, it becomes a little more complex. For example, would it be discriminatory for the manager of a Christian bookstore to request a employee's resignation if they tell him they're gay?
I don't think so, because according to Christianity, homosexuality is wrong, and for that person to remain employed there would serve as an inherent moral conflict. The loss of their job wouldn't be due to a personal issue, but rather a spiritual one.

Yes, it would be wrong for the employer to fire that employee for being gay because there are several Christian denominations which allow homosexuals in their membership and do not view homosexuality as something which goes against Christianity. There are many non-denominational groups which follow this ideology, as well as the UCC, Lutheran, and Episcopalian denominations. So, the employer would then be firing the employee based on the employer's religious views, not taking into account the Christian views of his employee.
 
Schlosser85 said:
According to the Bible, we are all sinners, and no sin is greater than any other. The Book of Leviticus which forbids homosexuality also forbids shaving and eating pork and shellfish. It would be hypocritical to request the resignation of an employee for being homosexual as if that sin is greater than the sins of the other employees, while the Bible itself says no such thing.
It's not about homosexuality being any "greater" sin; its simply about such a continuous choice being inherently against Christianity. the same could be said of stealing, murdering, excessive drinking...all are sins against God, and as such it would be rightful to request their resignation, or in some cases, fire them outright.

Is that Christian bookstore also going to require its employees to abstain from eating pork and shellfish? I think not. There is really no justification, even within the pages of the Bible itself, for this incessant, hypocritical, and convenient singling out of homosexuals.
This statement reminds me of the time in scripture where the Pharisees comaplined to Jesus about the disciples not cerimonially washing their hands before meals. Jesus' response is found in Mark 7:18-23...

"Jesus said, "Are you being willfully stupid? Don't you see that what you swallow can't contaminate you? It doesn't enter your heart but your stomach, works its way through the intestines, and is finally flushed." (That took care of dietary quibbling; Jesus was saying that all foods are fit to eat.) He went on: "It's what comes out of a person that pollutes: obscenities, lusts, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, depravity, deceptive dealings, carousing, mean looks, slander, arrogance, foolishness—all these are vomit from the heart. There is the source of your pollution."
 
I sense your blood pressure has gone up. The internet is not a good place to be if patenetly absurd and inflammatory posts (posted for whatever reason) enrage you. Please be rational or gain a sense of humour.

I find it incredibly appropriate that for your avatar you have an insensitive clown whose self-awareness is mythological and who can speak only in soundbites.
 
No, I'm not advocating personal attacks on homosexuals themselves. But we as a nation should be taking an active stance against the practice itself. Just because something is socially accepted doesn't mean it's morally right. .
How is homosexuality morally wrong? It certainly isn't unethical by any rationale...

I was offended when the Ten Commandments were removed from public display, simply because of their Christian connection. I was angry when Christian crosses were removed from Christmas displays, and when some stores started a policy of "employees can't say "Merry Christmas" to customers"..
i agree with you on that point - going to such measures seems to me to be superfluous. Although having the ten commandments there did seem to go against what your constitution says on the matter. But none of your rights were actually infringed in that case. If someone had pooed on the ten commandments - then i can see your right to be annoyed. As majic Walrus pointed out - according to your previous post if you got offended it was your own fault.


In terms of things which are out of an individual's control, that'd likely be true. For example, racism is 100% wrong, because you're unjustly judging someone based on their skin color (which they cannot consciously control). But wghen dealing with a drug dealer, for example, that person is perfectly capable of choosing otherwise. As such, telling him his actions are wrong isn't a personal attack; it's a criticism of the path he's chosen, not the dealer himself.
The difference is drug dealing is ethically wrong. Drugs are not only illegal but they ruin lives. homosexuality is neither illegal nor unethical

in regards to stores choosing what decorations they have and how to greet customers:
Some of these places literally instruct their employees to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", even if a customer greets them with the latter first. The warped reasoning behind this is the retailers don't want to offend non-Christians. Then when the Christians get offended, they're ignored. Where's the justice in that?
If they said salam Alekum (sp?) how would you feel? I'm not offended by any religious greeting - i think they all show a considerate compassionate human quality - we live in multi cultural societies and we have to respect all religious groups. this is a decision by individual store owners because it's good for business not to offend people - if your offended because the storepersons are not equiped with the skills to guess which (out of the thousands) of possible religions you adhere to, in order to greet you in a religiously specific manner - perhaps you should take it up with the stores and inform them of how they can tell which people adhere to which religions.

As far as I know, I've never said to anyone, "You can't be gay." That's their choice. What I have said is, "Homosexuality, in and of itself, is wrong and a sin against God". There's a difference...The Constitution never guarantees any American that right, be it corporate or otherwise. People do not have any legal or moral right to a lack of accountability.
Accountability to who? You?
You assume homosexuality is a sin against god. You assume it's wrong.
until you can show how it's ethically unsound to love someone of the same sex, and may explain it in terms that are not offensive.

When dealing with morals, though, it becomes a little more complex. For example, would it be discriminatory for the manager of a Christian bookstore to request a employee's resignation if they tell him they're gay? I don't think so, because according to Christianity, homosexuality is wrong, and for that person to remain employed there would serve as an inherent moral conflict. The loss of their job wouldn't be due to a personal issue, but rather a spiritual one.
I just hope you're not planning on being the defence attorney for that bookstore - cause that argument woiuld be thrown out immediately. That is still discriminating on the grounds of his sexual orientation. If the man was outwardly very camp he could be fired if customers didn't get on with him - but on the basis of his sexuality alone - That's textbook discrimination.
 
The word "******ed" based on its context is usually a politically incorrect term...:D
 
I am interested to read your thoughts on this 'article' about Political Correctness:

The Origins of Political Correctness
An Accuracy in Academia Address by Bill Lind

Variations of this speech have been delivered to various AIA conferences including the 2000 Consevative University at American University

Where does all this stuff that you’ve heard about this morning – the victim feminism, the gay rights movement, the invented statistics, the rewritten history, the lies, the demands, all the rest of it – where does it come from? For the first time in our history, Americans have to be fearful of what they say, of what they write, and of what they think. They have to be afraid of using the wrong word, a word denounced as offensive or insensitive, or racist, sexist, or homophobic.

We have seen other countries, particularly in this century, where this has been the case. And we have always regarded them with a mixture of pity, and to be truthful, some amusement, because it has struck us as so strange that people would allow a situation to develop where they would be afraid of what words they used. But we now have this situation in this country. We have it primarily on college campuses, but it is spreading throughout the whole society. Were does it come from? What is it?

We call it "Political Correctness." The name originated as something of a joke, literally in a comic strip, and we tend still to think of it as only half-serious. In fact, it’s deadly serious. It is the great disease of our century, the disease that has left tens of millions of people dead in Europe, in Russia, in China, indeed around the world. It is the disease of ideology. PC is not funny. PC is deadly serious.

If we look at it analytically, if we look at it historically, we quickly find out exactly what it is. Political Correctness is cultural Marxism. It is Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. It is an effort that goes back not to the 1960s and the hippies and the peace movement, but back to World War I. If we compare the basic tenets of Political Correctness with classical Marxism the parallels are very obvious.

First of all, both are totalitarian ideologies. The totalitarian nature of Political Correctness is revealed nowhere more clearly than on college campuses, many of which at this point are small ivy covered North Koreas, where the student or faculty member who dares to cross any of the lines set up by the gender feminist or the homosexual-rights activists, or the local black or Hispanic group, or any of the other sainted "victims" groups that PC revolves around, quickly find themselves in judicial trouble. Within the small legal system of the college, they face formal charges – some star-chamber proceeding – and punishment. That is a little look into the future that Political Correctness intends for the nation as a whole.

Indeed, all ideologies are totalitarian because the essence of an ideology (I would note that conservatism correctly understood is not an ideology) is to take some philosophy and say on the basis of this philosophy certain things must be true – such as the whole of the history of our culture is the history of the oppression of women. Since reality contradicts that, reality must be forbidden. It must become forbidden to acknowledge the reality of our history. People must be forced to live a lie, and since people are naturally reluctant to live a lie, they naturally use their ears and eyes to look out and say, "Wait a minute. This isn’t true. I can see it isn’t true," the power of the state must be put behind the demand to live a lie. That is why ideology invariably creates a totalitarian state.

Second, the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness, like economic Marxism, has a single factor explanation of history. Economic Marxism says that all of history is determined by ownership of means of production. Cultural Marxism, or Political Correctness, says that all history is determined by power, by which groups defined in terms of race, sex, etc., have power over which other groups. Nothing else matters. All literature, indeed, is about that. Everything in the past is about that one thing.

Third, just as in classical economic Marxism certain groups, i.e. workers and peasants, are a priori good, and other groups, i.e., the bourgeoisie and capital owners, are evil. In the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness certain groups are good – feminist women, (only feminist women, non-feminist women are deemed not to exist) blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals. These groups are determined to be "victims," and therefore automatically good regardless of what any of them do. Similarly, white males are determined automatically to be evil, thereby becoming the equivalent of the bourgeoisie in economic Marxism.

Fourth, both economic and cultural Marxism rely on expropriation. When the classical Marxists, the communists, took over a country like Russia, they expropriated the bourgeoisie, they took away their property. Similarly, when the cultural Marxists take over a university campus, they expropriate through things like quotas for admissions. When a white student with superior qualifications is denied admittance to a college in favor of a black or Hispanic who isn’t as well qualified, the white student is expropriated. And indeed, affirmative action, in our whole society today, is a system of expropriation. White owned companies don’t get a contract because the contract is reserved for a company owned by, say, Hispanics or women. So expropriation is a principle tool for both forms of Marxism.

And finally, both have a method of analysis that automatically gives the answers they want. For the classical Marxist, it’s Marxist economics. For the cultural Marxist, it’s deconstruction. Deconstruction essentially takes any text, removes all meaning from it and re-inserts any meaning desired. So we find, for example, that all of Shakespeare is about the suppression of women, or the Bible is really about race and gender. All of these texts simply become grist for the mill, which proves that "all history is about which groups have power over which other groups." So the parallels are very evident between the classical Marxism that we’re familiar with in the old Soviet Union and the cultural Marxism that we see today as Political Correctness.

But the parallels are not accidents. The parallels did not come from nothing. The fact of the matter is that Political Correctness has a history, a history that is much longer than many people are aware of outside a small group of academics who have studied this. And the history goes back, as I said, to World War I, as do so many of the pathologies that are today bringing our society, and indeed our culture, down.

Marxist theory said that when the general European war came (as it did come in Europe in 1914), the working class throughout Europe would rise up and overthrow their governments – the bourgeois governments – because the workers had more in common with each other across the national boundaries than they had in common with the bourgeoisie and the ruling class in their own country. Well, 1914 came and it didn’t happen. Throughout Europe, workers rallied to their flag and happily marched off to fight each other. The Kaiser shook hands with the leaders of the Marxist Social Democratic Party in Germany and said there are no parties now, there are only Germans. And this happened in every country in Europe. So something was wrong.

Marxists knew by definition it couldn’t be the theory. In 1917, they finally got a Marxist coup in Russia and it looked like the theory was working, but it stalled again. It didn’t spread and when attempts were made to spread immediately after the war, with the Spartacist uprising in Berlin, with the Bela Kun government in Hungary, with the Munich Soviet, the workers didn’t support them.

So the Marxists’ had a problem. And two Marxist theorists went to work on it: Antonio Gramsci in Italy and Georg Lukacs in Hungary. Gramsci said the workers will never see their true class interests, as defined by Marxism, until they are freed from Western culture, and particularly from the Christian religion – that they are blinded by culture and religion to their true class interests. Lukacs, who was considered the most brilliant Marxist theorist since Marx himself, said in 1919, "Who will save us from Western Civilization?" He also theorized that the great obstacle to the creation of a Marxist paradise was the culture: Western civilization itself.

Lukacs gets a chance to put his ideas into practice, because when the home grown Bolshevik Bela Kun government is established in Hungary in 1919, he becomes deputy commissar for culture, and the first thing he did was introduce sex education into the Hungarian schools. This ensured that the workers would not support the Bela Kun government, because the Hungarian people looked at this aghast, workers as well as everyone else. But he had already made the connection that today many of us are still surprised by, that we would consider the "latest thing."

In 1923 in Germany, a think-tank is established that takes on the role of translating Marxism from economic into cultural terms, that creates Political Correctness as we know it today, and essentially it has created the basis for it by the end of the 1930s. This comes about because the very wealthy young son of a millionaire German trader by the name of Felix Weil has become a Marxist and has lots of money to spend. He is disturbed by the divisions among the Marxists, so he sponsors something called the First Marxist Work Week, where he brings Lukacs and many of the key German thinkers together for a week, working on the differences of Marxism.

And he says, "What we need is a think-tank." Washington is full of think tanks and we think of them as very modern. In fact they go back quite a ways. He endows an institute, associated with Frankfurt University, established in 1923, that was originally supposed to be known as the Institute for Marxism. But the people behind it decided at the beginning that it was not to their advantage to be openly identified as Marxist. The last thing Political Correctness wants is for people to figure out it’s a form of Marxism. So instead they decide to name it the Institute for Social Research.

Weil is very clear about his goals. In 1971, he wrote to Martin Jay the author of a principle book on the Frankfurt School, as the Institute for Social Research soon becomes known informally, and he said, "I wanted the institute to become known, perhaps famous, due to its contributions to Marxism." Well, he was successful. The first director of the Institute, Carl Grunberg, an Austrian economist, concluded his opening address, according to Martin Jay, "by clearly stating his personal allegiance to Marxism as a scientific methodology." Marxism, he said, would be the ruling principle at the Institute, and that never changed.

The initial work at the Institute was rather conventional, but in 1930 it acquired a new director named Max Horkheimer, and Horkheimer’s views were very different. He was very much a Marxist renegade. The people who create and form the Frankfurt School are renegade Marxists. They’re still very much Marxist in their thinking, but they’re effectively run out of the party. Moscow looks at what they are doing and says, "Hey, this isn’t us, and we’re not going to bless this."

Horkheimer’s initial heresy is that he is very interested in Freud, and the key to making the translation of Marxism from economic into cultural terms is essentially that he combined it with Freudism. Again, Martin Jay writes, "If it can be said that in the early years of its history, the Institute concerned itself primarily with an analysis of bourgeois society’s socio-economic sub-structure," – and I point out that Jay is very sympathetic to the Frankfurt School, I’m not reading from a critic here – "in the years after 1930 its primary interests lay in its cultural superstructure. Indeed the traditional Marxist formula regarding the relationship between the two was brought into question by Critical Theory."

The stuff we’ve been hearing about this morning – the radical feminism, the women’s studies departments, the gay studies departments, the black studies departments – all these things are branches of Critical Theory. What the Frankfurt School essentially does is draw on both Marx and Freud in the 1930s to create this theory called Critical Theory. The term is ingenious because you’re tempted to ask, "What is the theory?" The theory is to criticize. The theory is that the way to bring down Western culture and the capitalist order is not to lay down an alternative. They explicitly refuse to do that. They say it can’t be done, that we can’t imagine what a free society would look like (their definition of a free society). As long as we’re living under repression – the repression of a capitalistic economic order which creates (in their theory) the Freudian condition, the conditions that Freud describes in individuals of repression – we can’t even imagine it. What Critical Theory is about is simply criticizing. It calls for the most destructive criticism possible, in every possible way, designed to bring the current order down. And, of course, when we hear from the feminists that the whole of society is just out to get women and so on, that kind of criticism is a derivative of Critical Theory. It is all coming from the 1930s, not the 1960s.

Other key members who join up around this time are Theodore Adorno, and, most importantly, Erich Fromm and Herbert Marcuse. Fromm and Marcuse introduce an element which is central to Political Correctness, and that’s the sexual element. And particularly Marcuse, who in his own writings calls for a society of "polymorphous perversity," that is his definition of the future of the world that they want to create. Marcuse in particular by the 1930s is writing some very extreme stuff on the need for sexual liberation, but this runs through the whole Institute. So do most of the themes we see in Political Correctness, again in the early 30s. In Fromm’s view, masculinity and femininity were not reflections of ‘essential’ sexual differences, as the Romantics had thought. They were derived instead from differences in life functions, which were in part socially determined." Sex is a construct; sexual differences are a construct.

Another example is the emphasis we now see on environmentalism. "Materialism as far back as Hobbes had led to a manipulative dominating attitude toward nature." That was Horkhemier writing in 1933 in Materialismus und Moral. "The theme of man’s domination of nature," according to Jay, " was to become a central concern of the Frankfurt School in subsequent years." "Horkheimer’s antagonism to the fetishization of labor, (here’s were they’re obviously departing from Marxist orthodoxy) expressed another dimension of his materialism, the demand for human, sensual happiness." In one of his most trenchant essays, Egoism and the Movement for Emancipation, written in 1936, Horkeimer "discussed the hostility to personal gratification inherent in bourgeois culture." And he specifically referred to the Marquis de Sade, favorably, for his "protest…against asceticism in the name of a higher morality."

How does all of this stuff flood in here? How does it flood into our universities, and indeed into our lives today? The members of the Frankfurt School are Marxist, they are also, to a man, Jewish. In 1933 the Nazis came to power in Germany, and not surprisingly they shut down the Institute for Social Research. And its members fled. They fled to New York City, and the Institute was reestablished there in 1933 with help from Columbia University. And the members of the Institute, gradually through the 1930s, though many of them remained writing in German, shift their focus from Critical Theory about German society, destructive criticism about every aspect of that society, to Critical Theory directed toward American society. There is another very important transition when the war comes. Some of them go to work for the government, including Herbert Marcuse, who became a key figure in the OSS (the predecessor to the CIA), and some, including Horkheimer and Adorno, move to Hollywood.

These origins of Political Correctness would probably not mean too much to us today except for two subsequent events. The first was the student rebellion in the mid-1960s, which was driven largely by resistance to the draft and the Vietnam War. But the student rebels needed theory of some sort. They couldn’t just get out there and say, "Hell no we won’t go," they had to have some theoretical explanation behind it. Very few of them were interested in wading through Das Kapital. Classical, economic Marxism is not light, and most of the radicals of the 60s were not deep. Fortunately for them, and unfortunately for our country today, and not just in the university, Herbert Marcuse remained in America when the Frankfurt School relocated back to Frankfurt after the war. And whereas Mr. Adorno in Germany is appalled by the student rebellion when it breaks out there – when the student rebels come into Adorno’s classroom, he calls the police and has them arrested – Herbert Marcuse, who remained here, saw the 60s student rebellion as the great chance. He saw the opportunity to take the work of the Frankfurt School and make it the theory of the New Left in the United States.

One of Marcuse’s books was the key book. It virtually became the bible of the SDS and the student rebels of the 60s. That book was Eros and Civilization. Marcuse argues that under a capitalistic order (he downplays the Marxism very strongly here, it is subtitled, A Philosophical Inquiry into Freud, but the framework is Marxist), repression is the essence of that order and that gives us the person Freud describes – the person with all the hang-ups, the neuroses, because his sexual instincts are repressed. We can envision a future, if we can only destroy this existing oppressive order, in which we liberate eros, we liberate libido, in which we have a world of "polymorphous perversity," in which you can "do you own thing." And by the way, in that world there will no longer be work, only play. What a wonderful message for the radicals of the mid-60s! They’re students, they’re baby-boomers, and they’ve grown up never having to worry about anything except eventually having to get a job. And here is a guy writing in a way they can easily follow. He doesn’t require them to read a lot of heavy Marxism and tells them everything they want to hear which is essentially, "Do your own thing," "If it feels good do it," and "You never have to go to work." By the way, Marcuse is also the man who creates the phrase, "Make love, not war." Coming back to the situation people face on campus, Marcuse defines "liberating tolerance" as intolerance for anything coming from the Right and tolerance for anything coming from the Left. Marcuse joined the Frankfurt School, in 1932 (if I remember right). So, all of this goes back to the 1930s.

TBC...
 
Here is the writer's conclusion:

In conclusion, America today is in the throws of the greatest and direst transformation in its history. We are becoming an ideological state, a country with an official state ideology enforced by the power of the state. In "hate crimes" we now have people serving jail sentences for political thoughts. And the Congress is now moving to expand that category ever further. Affirmative action is part of it. The terror against anyone who dissents from Political Correctness on campus is part of it. It’s exactly what we have seen happen in Russia, in Germany, in Italy, in China, and now it’s coming here. And we don’t recognize it because we call it Political Correctness and laugh it off. My message today is that it’s not funny, it’s here, it’s growing and it will eventually destroy, as it seeks to destroy, everything that we have ever defined as our freedom and our culture.

http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html

Do you think 'political correctness' is bad for our society?

PS. I know... so much to read. My eyes hurt. :(
 
Nice find DBella...Did I mention that you have the hottest username...

...Is that politically correct?
 
Nice find DBella...Did I mention that you have the hottest username...

...Is that politically correct?
You didn't even read, did you? You just like to follow me around. :cmad: I might have to put a leash on you.

Thoughts on the 'article'?
 
Do you think 'political correctness' is bad for our society?

Absolutely not, but I also believe that many of the issues raised by the author transcend political correctness and fall into some other category.

I do not believe that we should censor anyone's thoughts; however, I do believe that certain expressions are uncalled for and deserve to be punished. Painting a swastika on a Jewish professor's door, for example, crosses a line. I do not see how that is expressing a "political thought," when it is apparent that the swastika is most known in this century as a symbol of the Nazi regime, which exterminated several million Jews during the Holocaust. An effigy of an African American with a noose around its neck is not expressing a "political thought," it is blatant racism and is a sign that the effigy could transpire into something far more serious.

People can SAY things, they can say that they hate Jews or think the blacks deserve to be enslaved; fine, that is their opinion fueled by blind contempt. It is unconstitutional to censor speech. But when these people act provocatively and take action which is threatening, which is anything but expressing an opinion, then I believe action must be taken to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again (and the Supreme Court has ruled that it is acceptable for the government to censor speech as long as it harms someone or is done in a threatening manner). Drawing swastikas on private property, hanging nooses to explicitly threaten African Americans, shooting an eighth grader in the head SOLELY because he came to school dressed like a woman-- those are not political statements, those are statements made entirely of hate, and these people need to be punished for not only the end result of their crimes (vandalism, harassment, murder, etc.), but their punishments must also teach the rest of society that it is not cool to act in a hateful manner towards other individuals.

As for his points on affirmative action... well, if white America didn't enslave Africans/ blacks for a century, then denied them equal educational and societal opportunities for another century, then I would agree that affirmative action is an unnecessary policy. However, such scenarios did unfold, and there is still a gap between white America and black America which needs to be bridged. We are getting there, and I believe that by the time I retire, we will be able to phase out affirmative action. But I feel that affirmative action is necessary, still to this day.
 
3 quarters of it is junk...

In the cultural Marxism of Political Correctness certain groups are good – feminist women, (only feminist women, non-feminist women are deemed not to exist) blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals. These groups are determined to be "victims," and therefore automatically good regardless of what any of them do. Similarly, white males are determined automatically to be evil, thereby becoming the equivalent of the bourgeoisie in economic Marxism.

Isn't this in itself politically incorrect...

It stereotypes the victims of such political correctness, which makes the majority of a particular race or gender more-so dominant the other...
 
Isn't this in itself politically incorrect...

It stereotypes the victims of such political correctness, which makes the majority of a particular race or gender more-so dominant the other...

It is.

I do not live my life to be a "victim"; I fight for the causes which affect mine and others' lives on a daily basis so no one has to be a victim anymore.
 
Absolutely not, but I also believe that many of the issues raised by the author transcend political correctness and fall into some other category.

I do not believe that we should censor anyone's thoughts; however, I do believe that certain expressions are uncalled for and deserve to be punished. Painting a swastika on a Jewish professor's door, for example, crosses a line. I do not see how that is expressing a "political thought," when it is apparent that the swastika is most known in this century as a symbol of the Nazi regime, which exterminated several million Jews during the Holocaust. An effigy of an African American with a noose around its neck is not expressing a "political thought," it is blatant racism and is a sign that the effigy could transpire into something far more serious.

People can SAY things, they can say that they hate Jews or think the blacks deserve to be enslaved; fine, that is their opinion fueled by blind contempt. It is unconstitutional to censor speech. But when these people act provocatively and take action which is threatening, which is anything but expressing an opinion, then I believe action must be taken to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again (and the Supreme Court has ruled that it is acceptable for the government to censor speech as long as it harms someone or is done in a threatening manner). Drawing swastikas on private property, hanging nooses to explicitly threaten African Americans, shooting an eighth grader in the head SOLELY because he came to school dressed like a woman-- those are not political statements, those are statements made entirely of hate, and these people need to be punished for not only the end result of their crimes (vandalism, harassment, murder, etc.), but their punishments must also teach the rest of society that it is not cool to act in a hateful manner towards other individuals.

As for his points on affirmative action... well, if white America didn't enslave Africans/ blacks for a century, then denied them equal educational and societal opportunities for another century, then I would agree that affirmative action is an unnecessary policy. However, such scenarios did unfold, and there is still a gap between white America and black America which needs to be bridged. We are getting there, and I believe that by the time I retire, we will be able to phase out affirmative action. But I feel that affirmative action is necessary, still to this day.

Going back to..."crossing the line"...

Doesn't this depend on each person's view on where that line is...There are many different hate crimes...I agree that anything that goes beyond opinion should be taken care of...But...

A white man calling another white man who is mentally disabled "******ed" or "******" in a discriminating way...Although not a particular hate crime...Is not an expression of opinion but is an insult to the man's well being...Shouldn't this be deemed in a way that action should be taken place...?
 
http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html
Do you think 'political correctness' is bad for our society?
PS. I know... so much to read. My eyes hurt. :(

It seems the author is arguing against respecting peoples rights because the monitoring of language was used by marxism, or that the proponents of respecting other peoples rights can be traced back to marxist movements. There are substantial gaps in his logic. He also referenced Hate crimes as merely crimes of political thought - whereas they are more closely related to how those thoughts are acted upon. (for example murdering someone because of that hate). He also seems to suggest that any criticism of american society is cause by evil communist jews...

He fails to take into account the inherent benefits of having a democracy of ideas and perspectives, and the importance of such different perspectives -including feminism and marxism - on rational considerations of real world issues. Although it is unlikely that any one ideology has all the answers they do all seem to have more than a grain of truth to them. Marxist and feminist theory may not account for all of histories intracacies - but they are still useful theories for any intellectual the examination of history. Ignoring them

I would argue that renaming of terms for political purposes (ie. War on terror suggested to be renamed "the long war", or in the case of this article - referring to anyone that criticises his own conservative view a "cultural marxist" himself capitalising on the negative connotations that flow from marxism) is political propaganda and must be distinguished from political correctness. "Weasal words" are hardly specific to marxism, nor does the use of spin doctors of such terms gives rise to any argument against the proper use of political correctness, which is respecting the rights of others.
 
It seems a lot of people who complain about "political correctness" are mad that they can't openly say nasty things about blacks, Jews, or gays anymore, as if there is any call to do such things in the first place.
 
Going back to..."crossing the line"...

Doesn't this depend on each person's view on where that line is...There are many different hate crimes...I agree that anything that goes beyond opinion should be taken care of...But...

A white man calling another white man who is mentally disabled "******ed" or "******" in a discriminating way...Although not a particular hate crime...Is not an expression of opinion but is an insult to the man's well being...Shouldn't this be deemed in a way that action should be taken place...?

Did the man then spray-paint the word "******" on the mentally disabled's front door? If that happened, then yes, the man should face serious action. But saying something-- simply saying it, as if you walked up to me and called me a "****ing queer"-- shouldn't be punishable. It is vile, it is contempt filled-- but it is just words, hurtful words yes, but just words which cannot be punished under the constitution and several Supreme Court cases. Acting provocatively, however, in a sense that someone is threatened or put in a situation which could result in violence or prolonged harassment, deserves to be taken care of by the legal system.

So... if the man approached the mentally disabled man on a regular basis and called him "******," then I would say that harassment charges should be filed... I do believe hate crime legislation includes the mentally handicapped, or at least it does in some states, so if the man took action in addition to his statements he should be punished accordingly.
 
It seems a lot of people who complain about "political correctness" are mad that they can't openly say nasty things about blacks, Jews, or gays anymore, as if there is any call to do such things in the first place.

I agree. There are some people, perhaps even on these boards, who I believe disagree with being "politically correct" simply because they have some unexposed hatred they wish they could spew on a regular basis without getting in trouble.
 
Did the man then spray-paint the word "******" on the mentally disabled's front door? If that happened, then yes, the man should face serious action. But saying something-- simply saying it, as if you walked up to me and called me a "****ing queer"-- shouldn't be punishable. It is vile, it is contempt filled-- but it is just words, hurtful words yes, but just words which cannot be punished under the constitution and several Supreme Court cases. Acting provocatively, however, in a sense that someone is threatened or put in a situation which could result in violence or prolonged harassment, deserves to be taken care of by the legal system.

So... if the man approached the mentally disabled man on a regular basis and called him "******," then I would say that harassment charges should be filed... I do believe hate crime legislation includes the mentally handicapped, or at least it does in some states, so if the man took action in addition to his statements he should be punished accordingly.

Alright...I agree...Then in these particular cases...Race would not matter...But say if it were two different people of different races who had this altercation...Say...A white man saying it to a black man with the same disability...In the stereotypical world or just in stereotypical America...Would a hate crime be justifiable if say...The n-word slipped out of the white man's mouth along with the word "******ed"...Even if they are just words...?
 
Alright...I agree...Then in these particular cases...Race would not matter...But say if it were two different people of different races who had this altercation...Say...A white man saying it to a black man with the same disability...In the stereotypical world or just in stereotypical America...Would a hate crime be justifiable if say...The n-word slipped out of the white man's mouth along with the word "******ed"...Even if they are just words...?

Saying the "n-word" is not punishable by law nor should it be. The only punishment someone receives from saying that word is a deserved shunning by the rest of society, considering the word is rooted in hate and most people agree it is not something which should be a part of someone's vocabulary.

Calling a black man the "n-word" while beating the crap out of him, though, is grounds for committing a hate crime, as it should be, because it was obvious that this man attacked that black man solely because of his race.
 
psychocheeseman said:
How is homosexuality morally wrong? It certainly isn't unethical by any rationale...
Being a Bible-believing (not "-thumping") Christian, I honestly do not feel I can separate my views on this matter from what Scripture has said. Throughout the "Good Book", stories are told of homosexuality being condemned by God, in both Testaments. the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is just one example. The citizens of those cities were consumed by selfishness, greed, and evil; homosexuality was only one part of it. Nevertheless, it contributed to their destruction, because God does not approve of it. He created man and woman to compliment each other in every way, sexually and otherwise. Man was made first, and when no suitable companion was found, He created woman.

If homosexuality had been in God's original design from the beginning, then He would've created another man instead...but He didn't. God doesn't hate homosexual people; in fact, He loves them just as much as He loves anyone else...but He doesn't approve of the life they've chosen to live. It's not His best for them, and as the Creator, God has the right to finality on such things. What He says goes, regardless of whether we like, agree with, or understand it.

The difference is drug dealing is ethically wrong. Drugs are not only illegal but they ruin lives. homosexuality is neither illegal nor unethical
Homosexuality may not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it's right, either. 1st Corinthians 6:12 puts it best: "Just because something is technically legal doesn't mean that it's spiritually appropriate. If I went around doing whatever I thought I could get by with, I'd be a slave to my whims." (The Message)

If they said salam Alekum (sp?) how would you feel?
I'm not familiar with that greeting, so I wouldn't know what to feel.

Accountability to who? You?
No, not me...God. Whether people choose to acknowledge Him or not, He's real...and everyone will stand before Him in judgment one day. It's not a pretty subject, but it's the truth. All of us will have to give an account for how we've lived our lives, regardless of gender, race, or creed...and the only thing capable of washing our sin away is the blood of Jesus Christ. But on that fateful day, it'll be too late. We have only this mortal life to choose who we will serve: God, or ourselves.

You assume homosexuality is a sin against god. You assume it's wrong. Until you can show how it's ethically unsound to love someone of the same sex, and may explain it in terms that are not offensive.
Aside from the Biblical implications, it's been medically proven that homosexuals are generally the leading carriers for STDs, especially HIV. True, they can be spread through other forms of blood contact, but sex is by far the most common...and currently, there's no verifiable way to protect against them except abstinence. That fact alone is more than enough to make people rethink such choices, at the very least...and if it's not, it should be.
 
Why Moviefan, why must you always ignore the points I raise out of convenience? Why do you sidestep my posts?

Yes, it would be wrong for the employer to fire that employee for being gay because there are several Christian denominations which allow homosexuals in their membership and do not view homosexuality as something which goes against Christianity. There are many non-denominational groups which follow this ideology, as well as the UCC, Lutheran, and Episcopalian denominations. So, the employer would then be firing the employee based on the employer's religious views, not taking into account the Christian views of his employee.

Why should that employer be allowed to fire his employee simply because he's gay? He's still a Christian, why should he be fired?
 
Aside from the Biblical implications, it's been medically proven that homosexuals are generally the leading carriers for STDs, especially HIV. True, they can be spread through other forms of blood contact, but sex is by far the most common...and currently, there's no verifiable way to protect against them except abstinence. That fact alone is more than enough to make people rethink such choices, at the very least...and if it's not, it should be.

You know why this is true?

Because the majority of homosexuals grow up living in repressed environments their entire childhoods, and when they move to more gay friendly cities, they end up having sex and partying because they had missed out on that experience during all the years they had to deal with being insulted and treated like **** by their peers. Never mind the fact that they couldn't get a date, but they were constantly ridiculed as well and therefore socially inactive.

That is a very, very loose interpretation of a sociological article I had to read for a class a few weeks ago... but you know what? Maybe if society was more accepting, maybe if society didn't treat gay youth as "sinners" and "heathens" many of them would be able to move on without feeling the need to have their sexual "outcoming" all at once, with anonymous sources they only knew for ten minutes at a club, several nights of the week. Maybe they wouldn't be reduced to living their lives in a perverse subculture.

And, additionally, heterosexuals can get HIV/ AIDS the same way as homosexuals, so the argument you were making is sort of... flawed.

I've got an idea? Maybe everyone should use protection. What a strange, silly idea that is-- teaching young people to use condoms, dental dams and other forms of protection instead of preaching abstinence to the choir.
 

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