The President Trump Thread

[DeadPresident]

You say that, and you may be right. But we have no way of knowing that, because Israel has been building those settlements for decades. It's hard for the Palestinian moderates to accomplish anything as their people are being actively ethnically cleansed.

How many Palestinian moderates are there? I concede your point, but I'm not sure there's anyone to sell that idea to in any case. The Palestinians in general have had their agenda set for them by the likes of Hamas. The same way Palestinians have legitimate grievances surely Israelis who are targets of rocket attacks have legitimate grievances? The issue is at their best times only one side was interested in a workable peace solution, and the Palestinian leadership won't acquiesce to any agreement that doesn't put them in a position where they can threaten a Jewish homeland.

Actually, there's a lot of complaints. They're second class citizens. But yes, the standards of living are higher than in much of the Middle East, that much is true. I was, however, thinking more the Palestinian Arabs living under military occupation and in refugee camps throughout the region, which far outnumber those with Israeli citizenship (i.e. 80% or more).

Fair, but when we've got the Syrian situation for comparison I think it's reasonable to assume every Arab would rather be a "second class" Israeli citizen than a first class Syrian citizen being either evicted from their homes or killed by missiles fired by their own establishment. Many Arabs throughout the ME who supposedly are represented by their governments live in far worse conditions than Arab Israelis. I agree Palestinian Arabs living in military occupation have unacceptable living conditions, but unless a Palestinian authority represents their people with a view to improving their lives rather than handing out punishments and symbolic defeats to Israel and Jews, how does it ever end? Do Palestinian governments care about their population more than they care about driving the Jews into the sea? I'm not sure.

The rhetoric and propaganda in the Middle East (and left-wing Europe and North America) is that Israel is the reason for all the Middle East's plights. Like Sunnis and Shi'ites will suddenly stop hating one another if all the Jews in the territories are eradicated, like Wahhabism will suddenly reform and become peaceful when all the Jews are gone, like there won't be a new despot massacring his own people every decade or so. People have too much of an emotional reaction to the topic of Israel instead of looking at pragmatic facts. The pragmatic fact is even if Israel bend to each and every whim suggested by Palestinians and the global community alike, we can reasonably infer from the state of the region that it guarantees nothing and that there will still be attempts to get every Jew out of the territories.

 

[Thundercrack85]

How many Palestinian moderates are there? I concede your point, but I'm not sure there's anyone to sell that idea to in any case. The Palestinians in general have had their agenda set for them by the likes of Hamas. The same way Palestinians have legitimate grievances surely Israelis who are targets of rocket attacks have legitimate grievances? The issue is at their best times only one side was interested in a workable peace solution, and the Palestinian leadership won't acquiesce to any agreement that doesn't put them in a position where they can threaten a Jewish homeland.

Less and less undoubtedly. I am not trying to say that the Palestinians are faultless in this conflict, but Israel's actions have delegitimized the efforts by moderates. I do think we should hold Israel, which is a real country, our ally (allegedly), which has international recognition and deep pockets to a higher standard than a stateless people living under military occupation.

I personally don't see the Israelis as being much more amenable to the peace solution. Certainly Netanyahu and his policies are as big an obstacle as anyone or anything on the Palestinian side.

Fair, but when we've got the Syrian situation for comparison I think it's reasonable to assume every Arab would rather be a "second class" Israeli citizen than a first class Syrian citizen being either evicted from their homes or killed by missiles fired by their own establishment. Many Arabs throughout the ME who supposedly are represented by their governments live in far worse conditions than Arab Israelis. I agree Palestinian Arabs living in military occupation have unacceptable living conditions, but unless a Palestinian authority represents their people with a view to improving their lives rather than handing out punishments and symbolic defeats to Israel and Jews, how does it ever end? Do Palestinian governments care about their population more than they care about driving the Jews into the sea? I'm not sure.

The rhetoric and propaganda in the Middle East (and left-wing Europe and North America) is that Israel is the reason for all the Middle East's plights. Like Sunnis and Shi'ites will suddenly stop hating one another if all the Jews in the territories are eradicated, like Wahhabism will suddenly reform and become peaceful when all the Jews are gone, like there won't be a new despot massacring his own people every decade or so. People have too much of an emotional reaction to the topic of Israel instead of looking at pragmatic facts. The pragmatic fact is even if Israel bend to each and every whim suggested by Palestinians and the global community alike, we can reasonably infer from the state of the region that it guarantees nothing and that there will still be attempts to get every Jew out of the territories.

Considering that many Arabs had the option of becoming Israeli citizens but denied it out of principle, I would question that assumption. These are a proud people, with a long history of being exploited by imperial powers (the Ottomans, the Brits). They see the Israelis as just the latest oppressive group, only more so, since they’re taking their land. I think most Palestinians have given up on peace and resigned themselves to war, or at the very least a political struggle.

I am not one of those people who thinks Israel is the cause of all the region’s problems. I do, however, think that at this point, Israel’s policies, particularly settlements, are probably the biggest issue facing the peace process in this particular conflict as of now. Certainly they’re the biggest issue that we (i.e. the West) can realistically deal with. As long as Israel continues down this road, liberal Palestinians (yes, there are liberals) will be marginalized, and the fanatics strengthened. You also have to ask yourself where this road will end. Intensified ethnic cleansing, genocide, or the collapse of Israel. Take your pick.

I also don’t think that this is such an unreasonable demand on Israel’s part. They’ve known from day one that these settlements are illegal. Israeli liberals acknowledge that, and even the right-wingers realize that they’re on dubious moral and legal ground.

 

[Wise]

Trump is a narcissistic sack of garbage in a brioni suit.

But occasionally a sack of garbage can be right about some things.

Trump may be blunt, but occasionally his blunt decisions are the right decisions like torpedoing the TPP and calling out the BS regarding the out of control budget of the Joint Strike Fighter.

That said though, his views on climate change are extremely distressing and have the potential to dangerously delay much needed global action.

Imagine if the ozone hole had been heavily politicized and it took 20 years to ban HCFC's because companies lobbied governments and funded 'research' with the aim debasing properly conducted and peer reviewed research, sewing doubt to protect profit margins.

 

[TheVileOne]

Less and less undoubtedly. I am not trying to say that the Palestinians are faultless in this conflict, but Israel's actions have delegitimized the efforts by moderates. I do think we should hold Israel, which is a real country, our ally (allegedly), which has international recognition and deep pockets to a higher standard than a stateless people living under military occupation.

I personally don't see the Israelis as being much more amenable to the peace solution. Certainly Netanyahu and his policies are as big an obstacle as anyone or anything on the Palestinian side.



Considering that many Arabs had the option of becoming Israeli citizens but denied it out of principle, I would question that assumption. These are a proud people, with a long history of being exploited by imperial powers (the Ottomans, the Brits). They see the Israelis as just the latest oppressive group, only more so, since they’re taking their land. I think most Palestinians have given up on peace and resigned themselves to war, or at the very least a political struggle.

I am not one of those people who thinks Israel is the cause of all the region’s problems. I do, however, think that at this point, Israel’s policies, particularly settlements, are probably the biggest issue facing the peace process in this particular conflict as of now. Certainly they’re the biggest issue that we (i.e. the West) can realistically deal with. As long as Israel continues down this road, liberal Palestinians (yes, there are liberals) will be marginalized, and the fanatics strengthened. You also have to ask yourself where this road will end. Intensified ethnic cleansing, genocide, or the collapse of Israel. Take your pick.

I also don’t think that this is such an unreasonable demand on Israel’s part. They’ve known from day one that these settlements are illegal. Israeli liberals acknowledge that, and even the right-wingers realize that they’re on dubious moral and legal ground.

Israel gave up the settlements of the Gaza Strip and it accomplished nothing. It only empowered Hamas, who then attacked Israel.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Israel gave up the settlements of the Gaza Strip and it accomplished nothing. It only empowered Hamas, who then attacked Israel.

Gaza is not the West Bank. But what are you suggesting Israel do? Keep building settlements, and ethnically cleanse the West Bank?

 

[TheVileOne]

Gaza is not the West Bank. But what are you suggesting Israel do? Keep building settlements, and ethnically cleanse the West Bank?

Why didn't leaving settlements on the Gaza Strip work? Why did it become a disaster?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Why didn't leaving settlements on the Gaza Strip work? Why did it become a disaster?

I question if you really want an answer.

 

[TheVileOne]

The answer isn't Israel's fault.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I still don't see how that therefore makes it okay, or even a good idea strategically for Israel to build these settlements on the West Bank. I also don't see why other countries should give Israel a pass on amoral and illegal activity in the Palestinian territories, or why calling the country out on that makes someone antisemitic.

Quite frankly, I think right wingers use accusations of antisemitism to shut down discussion.

 

[TheVileOne]

It doesn't. Saying Israel can either be Jewish or democratic but not both is anti-Semitic. And racist.

 

[Donner]

It doesn't. Saying Israel can either be Jewish or democratic but not both is anti-Semitic. And racist.

Let it go. You clearly misunderstood what Kerry meant.

 

[TheVileOne]

Let it go. You clearly misunderstood what Kerry meant.

I won't let it go. Ever.

 

[Donner]

I won't let it go. Ever.

How sad for you.

 

[TheVileOne]

How sad for you.

How sad for John Kerry and President Obama.

 

[Donner]

Edit. Meh.

 

[SuperDan007]

I'll give Trump credit. I'm not his friend, I would much prefer Bernie Sanders in the White House, however I'll give him credit for forcing House Republicans to pull their head in in trying to gut the Ethics committee, and also sticking it up General Motors.

 

[Sithborg]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yes, it was a tweet from the Orange One that caused the Republicans to back down, not the avalanche of phone calls they received from their constituents.

 

[Kyle]

I'll give Trump credit. I'm not his friend, I would much prefer Bernie Sanders in the White House, however I'll give him credit for forcing House Republicans to pull their head in in trying to gut the Ethics committee, and also sticking it up General Motors.

He didn't make them stop. Trump is FOR bringing it down, he just didn't want it to be the "first priority." He's with them all the way on it. If he wasn't, he wouldn't have said that 'priority' ******** - he would have just come out against it. Saying he stopped it is called spin. Something Trump has consistently done and will continue to do. Especially through Brietbart, his own personal Goebbels.

 

[MaceB]

It doesn't. Saying Israel can either be Jewish or democratic but not both is anti-Semitic. And racist.

Dude, Democracy.. by definition... is inclusive. Israel is not a religion, it's a country... that has believers and nonbelievers alike. Saying Israel can either be Jewish or Democratic is just saying that "in order to be a democracy, you can't just help one sect of your population. You have to work to mitigate the friction between groups of people."
Even if you don't agree with that, it is completely unjustified to say Kerry is anti-semitic and racist for disagreeing with you. If I say that Iran needs to stop discriminating against women, does that make me racist? If I say that North Korea should work hard to feed its citizens instead of making bombs, is that racist? If I say that China needs to stop being such a polluter country, is that racist? I can be critical of any policy/country/religious philosophy I want, and if not supporting Israel 100% of the time makes me an anti-semite... then fine, I must be the nicest racist in the world.

We give them money. We give them military grade weapons. We give them political support. Pardon us for being critical once in a while.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

There has been a dearth of pro-Trump posters willing to defend the president or his administration's and campaign's actions and conduct in these threads recently. Is there anyone who is a supporter or who voted for him that would like to defend the short time he's been in office and what we have learned about the rolling disclosure of contacts between the Trump campaign and associates and members of his inner circle during the election? What do you think now that so many blanket denials of contacts keep getting proven to be false?

I think we do need to hear these thoughts. Seriously. Has nothing changed your minds? Does this all seem simply partisan?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

This thread needs its own Miss Lane.

 

[Gold Samurai]

This thread needs its own Miss Lane.

How many "T's" in "bloodletting?"

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

How many "T's" in "bloodletting?"

What are you writing? An ode to spring?

 

[Clark-Kent]

I'm truly disgusted, once again the birther issue comes up with a forged birth certificate from Malik, a half brother of President Obama. Trump needs to denounce this garbage. Obama was a President for 8 years and this birther bs needs to go away for good.

 

[Marvel]

Trump is kicking ass with the State of the Union speech right this minute.

Trump being a good president is driving a lot of people nuts. Who would have ever thought that he would be doing this much good this fast faced with rage and irrational opposition EVERY moment of every day... including severe push from a bias mainstream media. God willing he can keep it up and keep doing what's right no matter how many irrational snowflakes cry about it.

Not even a fan of the man or his ego but his policies have been or look to be pure gold. Looking past the BS and looking at policy and it's clear to any sane human that he's doing a great job.

Now, cry away the many snowflakes of SHH...