The Dark Knight The Prestige, and Nolan's vision of theatricality (Joker)

[Miranda Fox]

All right. We have to take what was in Batman Begins (and the Prestige, which is a more recent element), and put some two's together.

* Do you realize how many fans were bothered by just the way Batman spoke in BB? Even die-hard Begins fans know the voice needs refining. That alone (that Nolan somehow let the inflection pass his judgment), spells worry for the role of Joker (regardless of who plays the role, actually). A huge part of film Joker is in the voice. While we obviously can't hear him in the comics: just the way he is drawn, the types of words he uses, gives the explicit impression that Joker has a distinct voice. Try it. Read a Batman comic. Tell me that you don't automatically get this creepy, maniacal voice in your mind when reading Joker's words.

Wow, that's one heck of a logic black hole. Bravo.

What has Bale's Batman voice got to with the Joker's? I may not like it, but I understood why it was kept that way - theatricality, anyone? It was meant to be that way because Batman was out to make an impression.

Should it be refined? Absolutely. And that's, just to remind ourselves, completely beside the point when it comes to the Joker.

If Bale himself wasn't made to speak in a more refined Batman voice, how do we expect Ledger to not just totally turn fans off by having some a tone that doesn't remotely fit the character of Joker, or anything he stands for? (Sorry for the loaded sentence.)

We can't because we don't know but frankly, I've seen nothing that suggests Heath would do a bad voice. He has a very rich voice that - IMO - could be used to creepy effect.

I think it'll be more along the lines of how the Joker was meant to be in the comics, darker and more sinister. - By no stretch of the imagination can we consider this part ambiguous. Ledger comes out and says that he will portray a comic book Joker. Unless Nolan is going to allow such blatant over-the-top acting to occur, then we cannot possibly get a comic Joker. Do any reailze this? What we will get, without a doubt, is a Nolanverse Joker. While Batman only somewhat fits into the dry realism, the Joker, as a character thus far in the comics, cannot be honorably done with Nolanverse laws.

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.

First of all, the comic book Joker would be the one from the first two Batman stories - who was OTT. Theatrical, yes, but in a different way than usual - it was how he executed his crimes that was OTT. In person, he was in fact creepily odd.

Oh, and also, that Joker would fit the Nolanverse with no trouble so your last sentence is not, in fact, the TRUFAX you think it is.

As to that quote about Penguin - it was assinine of Nolan, no doubt, but in the end all it could mean is that Penguin is to Nolan what Venom is to Raimi.

 

[Miranda Fox]

I personally expect Ledger's Joker to be QUIET, and not laughing all the time. He's a very quiet actor, and you never see him "freaking out" on screen.

The cold turkey scene in Candy begs to differ.
​

 

[Castlewood]

Well, either way, I think Nolan's Joker will deliver, just not in the sense that we thought it would. It will be disappointing, but the unexpectedness of it will redeem our disappointment. It might take several viewings to finally be comfortable with it.

I think we'll be VERY surprised.

Also, I'm really concerned with the fact that this is Ledger's first project with Nolan, while it's Bale and Caine's THIRD, and Oldman's SECOND.

Well, Eckhart and Maggie scare me too.... but LEDGER IS THE KEY HERE.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Well, either way, I think Nolan's Joker will deliver, just not in the sense that we thought it would. It will be disappointing, but the unexpectedness of it will redeem our disappointment. It might take several viewings to finally be comfortable with it.

I think we'll be VERY surprised.

Also, I'm really concerned with the fact that this is Ledger's first project with Nolan, while it's Bale and Caine's THIRD, and Oldman's SECOND.

Well, Eckhart and Maggie scare me too.... but LEDGER IS THE KEY HERE.

I imagine if you really want an idea about Nolan's Joker, watch Blade Runner and especially, study Rutger Hauer's character. He has a lot of Joker-ish aspects, IMO.

I'm not under any allusions about this - Jack's Joker will always be the cinematical 'Joker' in the eyes of most people and I doubt Heath, no matter how good he is, will be any challange to that. As long as it's an accepted interpretation then job done.

 

[Silver Souper]

hopefully Nolan's Joker will deliver, but i completely disagree with you on just about everything you said about The Prestige

to each his own

 

[Nivek]

hopefully Nolan's Joker will deliver, but i completely disagree with you on just about everything you said about The Prestige

Me too, I thought it was a great flick, it's just dissapointing how some people just dont get it.

 

[Castlewood]

I imagine if you really want an idea about Nolan's Joker, watch Blade Runner and especially, study Rutger Hauer's character. He has a lot of Joker-ish aspects, IMO.

I'm not under any allusions about this - Jack's Joker will always be the cinematical 'Joker' in the eyes of most people and I doubt Heath, no matter how good he is, will be any challange to that. As long as it's an accepted interpretation then job done.

Well, I agree with you there.

However, if Ledger/Nolan WANT to outshine Nicholson's "attempt" at the Joker... then it absolutely *MUST* have the Clockwork Orange feel... Bizarre, yet funny, and you don't know why you're laughing because it's so damn disturbing, and you love it. That kind of thing.

And if Ledger mentioned Clockwork Orange, then this could be, could be, COULD BE.... The Movie-Joker we've been waiting for.

 

[Silver Souper]

I imagine if you really want an idea about Nolan's Joker, watch Blade Runner and especially, study Rutger Hauer's character. He has a lot of Joker-ish aspects, IMO.

I'm not under any allusions about this - Jack's Joker will always be the cinematical 'Joker' in the eyes of most people and I doubt Heath, no matter how good he is, will be any challange to that. As long as it's an accepted interpretation then job done.

your last sentance is the kicker. I don't care if the general public is shocked, I will care if those of us who know the character are shocked, and not pleasantly so.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Well, I agree with you there.

However, if Ledger/Nolan WANT to outshine Nicholson's "attempt" at the Joker... then it absolutely *MUST* have the Clockwork Orange feel... Bizarre, yet funny, and you don't know why you're laughing because it's so damn disturbing, and you love it. That kind of thing.

And if Ledger mentioned Clockwork Orange, then this could be, could be, COULD BE.... The Movie-Joker we've been waiting for.

We can always hope. t:

 

[Silver Souper]

Me too, I thought it was a great flick, it's just dissapointing how some people just dont get it.

i hope you mean "don't get it" as in "don't appreciate it", not "didn't understand it"

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Wow, that's one heck of a logic black hole. Bravo.

What has Bale's Batman voice got to with the Joker's? I may not like it, but I understood why it was kept that way - theatricality, anyone? It was meant to be that way because Batman was out to make an impression.

Should it be refined? Absolutely. And that's, just to remind ourselves, completely beside the point when it comes to the Joker.

The idea behind the voice was worthy, but the implications were way off. There's a difference between a deep, bold, dark voice, and: a voice that reflects a person who has chain-smoked for the past few decades (exaggeration on my part, but not by much).

And no, it's not beside the point of Joker. You missed my initial point about the voice. If Nolan did not work to refine BATMAN'S voice/inflection in BB, how do we expect him to step up and say: "Heath, that Joker voice just isn't going to fly in this scene."

If Nolan allowed Joker sound like Donald Duck, would you still call the implications worthy for theatricality? The voice MATTERS.

We can't because we don't know but frankly, I've seen nothing that suggests Heath would do a bad voice. He has a very rich voice that - IMO - could be used to creepy effect.

We're assuming that Ledger knows that Joker needs a distinct voice. Ledger will choose which route to go. That's what I'm saying. And if that route somehow sucks (like it did with BATMAN), then I don't see Nolan pointing it out to Ledger. Possibly because Nolan from the start is a bad judge of inflection.

Congratulations, you just contradicted yourself.

Yeah? How so?

First of all, the comic book Joker would be the one from the first two Batman stories - who was OTT. Theatrical, yes, but in a different way than usual - it was how he executed his crimes that was OTT. In person, he was in fact creepily odd.

Just because those first two Batman stories are available for Nolan to feed from, doesn't mean it will get pulled off correctly.

Oh, and also, that Joker would fit the Nolanverse with no trouble so your last sentence is not, in fact, the TRUFAX you think it is.

Subjective. Would the very early Joker fit into the Nolanverse? Let's take a critical look.

a) Malicious smile.

b) Pun.

c) Green hair. Red lips. White skin. Purple dress suit.

Dry realism? No. Miranda, go look up more panels from that early Joker. Paste them on here, and we can discuss this more in-depth.

As to that quote about Penguin - it was assinine of Nolan, no doubt, but in the end all it could mean is that Penguin is to Nolan what Venom is to Raimi.

A villain to fit inside the last installment of a trilogy, perhaps. It's great to see we agree on the assinine undertones of that quote.

 

[strider]

Well I'll start this off by saying I loved the first half of The Prestige, and then I watched as the second half slowed to a near stop, bogged down by plot holes and leaps in logic and coinsidence. But it was the ending that really pissed me off. I haven't felt cheated in theaters like that since The Village. I realize it was based on the source material but...LAME!

I think the movie gave us some clues into Nolan's vision of theatricality and pomp (Jackman's showmanship). I almost wonder if Nolan considered this his "revving up" to portray the Joker, who will show similar characteristics in TDK.

I have to say, The Prestige seemed increasingly clunky and detached in the way Nolan portrayed fantastical and theatrical elements. I am not fearing for the life of the Batman franchise like some paranoid fans, but I thought it was worth the discussion since Nolan's never really tackled a character like the Joker before, and The Prestige's magicians are probably the closest he's come to him yet.

Although the Joker is menacing, evil and frightening, he needs to have an undeniable watchability and appeal, not to mention a flamboyance, vanity and certain level of cheer. I hope Nolan won't lose those things in favor of showing his grisly side. Too much "dark" and the definable characteristics of Joker are lost. Based on The Prestige, I wonder if he's going to be able to deliver us the balance that is The Joker.

just an idea. Thoughts?

Nolan will solve this problem buy not giving us another B'89 or aka The Joker'89. Too much Joker will kill TDK. So I think he'll have a couple of other villains with substance.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Well, either way, I think Nolan's Joker will deliver, just not in the sense that we thought it would. It will be disappointing, but the unexpectedness of it will redeem our disappointment. It might take several viewings to finally be comfortable with it.

I think we'll be VERY surprised.

Also, I'm really concerned with the fact that this is Ledger's first project with Nolan, while it's Bale and Caine's THIRD, and Oldman's SECOND.

Well, Eckhart and Maggie scare me too.... but LEDGER IS THE KEY HERE.

Hmm. True. Ledger doesn't know how Nolan communicates to the actors as well as Bale, Caine, or Oldman. We can't be sure how this alone will affect the role.

 

[Leon the Professional]

SPOILER: the idea that bales' character sent jackman's on a wild goose chase that accidentally (for bale) ended in the creation by tesla of the very thing that bale was mimicking on stage, is COMPLETELY ABSURD. beyond the obvious impossibility of that mechanism, too...

ENDING: you cannot establish a world that uses reason and logic and then suddenly violates the logic and reason of that world to get yourself out of a creative bind. you can do your own googling if you'd like to research the dynamics of story from the pros.

Are you sure you understand the concepts of plot hole and leap in logic?

The example you cited about Tesla is neither a plot hole nor a leap in logic, and certainly not absurd.

Can you better explain these alleged plot holes and leaps in logic in the Prestige? And also explain how exactly the ending violates reason and logic?

Also, unlike Shyamalan with the Village, Nolan provided many foreshadowings of the magicians's secrets and ending along the way, which I can list for you if you like. So the only reason you could feel cheated is if you failed to pick up on them and still don't realize that they were right there, which I don't mean as an insult. And there were even more clever hints than the flashback explanation during the ending pointed out. A good magic trick is not easy to figure out, and that's what the Prestige is in a large part -- a cinematic magic trick.

 

[Rynan]

SPOILER: the idea that bales' character sent jackman's on a wild goose chase that accidentally (for bale) ended in the creation by tesla of the very thing that bale was mimicking on stage, is COMPLETELY ABSURD. beyond the obvious impossibility of that mechanism, too...

[blackout]It was the obsession. Robert just couldn't accept the fact that Alfred, the man who(in his mind) killed his wife, could pull of that magic trick so easily. It's the same reason people won't beleve that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK. Our villains need to be something else, something superhuman. The obvious answer cannot be the truth, which is why Robert was so obsessed with it. He needed to be superhuman to defeat his "Villain". And Alfred used it to send him on wild goose chase.

It was coincidence with Tesla's clone machine. With a man who claimed to have designed deathrays, electromagnetic oscillator and other such doomsday devices, a cloning/teleportation system doesn't seem so far fetched with him. Especially if he was using it as a front to syphon away Robert's money to fund his research in electricity.[/blackout]

ENDING: you cannot establish a world that uses reason and logic and then suddenly violates the logic and reason of that world to get yourself out of a creative bind. you can do your own googling if you'd like to research the dynamics of story from the pros.

[blackout]Your judgement of the movie only reveals your lack of imagination and interest in fantasy. It was supposed to be fantastic. It represented how far Robert was willing to go to get revenge on Alfred, even if meant selling his soul to the devil to do it.
[/blackout]

 

[Crooklyn]

The cold turkey scene in Candy begs to differ.
​

I just saw that movie yesterday, but wasn't he the calm one in that scene (with the parents)? I only really saw him go "crazy" in the shower.

Hmm. True. Ledger doesn't know how Nolan communicates to the actors as well as Bale, Caine, or Oldman. We can't be sure how this alone will affect the role.

How is this even a problem? Did we forget that BB was also Bale, Caine, and Oldman's first time with Nolan? It's not an issue.

 

[Carnotaur3]

Well, I agree with you there.

However, if Ledger/Nolan WANT to outshine Nicholson's "attempt" at the Joker... then it absolutely *MUST* have the Clockwork Orange feel... Bizarre, yet funny, and you don't know why you're laughing because it's so damn disturbing, and you love it. That kind of thing.

And if Ledger mentioned Clockwork Orange, then this could be, could be, COULD BE.... The Movie-Joker we've been waiting for.

I don't want Joker funny. I want Joker to think he's funny.

 

[SilentType]

Subjective. Would the very early Joker fit into the Nolanverse? Let's take a critical look.


a) Malicious smile.

b) Pun.

c) Green hair. Red lips. White skin. Purple dress suit.

a) A malicious smile is in no way outside of Nolan’s world
b) I hope there are no lines that bad in TDK, but BB had some bad one liners, so it may happen
c) None of that is outside the realm of possibility. I guess we'll see what he does with it.

 

[Muziko]

I think the Nolan is going to pull it off and compared to the lame villians in the two Spider-Man movies, I think the Joker will rank as a modern date Hannibal Lecter.

Yeah... they have been rather lame(Spider-Man villains). Dr. Octopus was.... OKAY at best. The Goblin was an embarrassment. It looks like the Goblin's son will be another. I'm hoping Venom is KICK ASS though... We'll see.

I hope the twist on Joker that we see in TDK will make you REALLY understand how ***kin' out of his mind he is.

 

[Muziko]

Are you sure you understand the concepts of plot hole and leap in logic?

The example you cited about Tesla is neither a plot hole nor a leap in logic, and certainly not absurd.

Can you better explain these alleged plot holes and leaps in logic in the Prestige? And also explain how exactly the ending violates reason and logic?

Also, unlike Shyamalan with the Village, Nolan provided many foreshadowings of the magicians's secrets and ending along the way, which I can list for you if you like. So the only reason you could feel cheated is if you failed to pick up on them and still don't realize that they were right there, which I don't mean as an insult. And there were even more clever hints than the flashback explanation during the ending pointed out. A good magic trick is not easy to figure out, and that's what the Prestige is in a large part -- a cinematic magic trick.

Well said Leon, well said.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

First of all, if The Prestige is indicative of Joker's "theatricality," then we're in for a treat.

I actually didn't find the film to be that great (probably my least favorite of Nolan's), but the "magic shows" were tremendous. Whenever Bale or Jackman were on stage, I was enthralled.

Secondly, I think many of you are being far too pessimistic concerning The Joker.

The point about his voice? I don't see how not liking Bale's Batman voice is indicative of some huge mismanagement by Nolan. It was a creative choice, one Nolan clearly liked enough to let Bale continue with. If you didn't like it, well...that's too bad, I guess. But I don't think it points to Ledger using a "bad one." I don't know why anyone would flatly assume Nolan is just some pushover when it comes to voice acting just because you didn't like Bale's voice. Do you think he was afraid that Bale would kick his ass if he spoke up?

Scarecrow's voice was spot-on creepy. Does that even the odds?

Thirdly, the fact that anyone uses the word "scared" when referring to how they're feeling about an upcoming movie (one that seems to be coming alone swimmingly anyway, despite not having shot a frame of film yet)...well, that's just weird. Take some Zoloft.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

a) Malicious smile.

b) Pun.

c) Green hair. Red lips. White skin. Purple dress suit.

a.) Huh?

b.) Something like "My opinion? You need to lighten up!" ..? And that's coming from a villain without a clown motif.

c.) Well, this is all speculation. Green hair, red lips, white skin and purple suits didn't fit Begins because there was no character called "The Joker" in it. But what it did have was a character named "Scarecrow" who wore a scary burlap mask and noose; and one named "Ra's Al Ghul" ("fake" Ra's, at least), an evil warlord with a flowing regal cape and full-on Fu Manchu look.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

a) A malicious smile is in no way outside of Nolan’s world
b) I hope there are no lines that bad in TDK, but BB had some bad one liners, so it may happen
c) None of that is outside the realm of possibility. I guess we'll see what he does with it.

a.) Huh?

b.) Something like "My opinion? You need to lighten up!" ..? And that's coming from a villain without a clown motif.

c.) Well, this is all speculation. Green hair, red lips, white skin and purple suits didn't fit Begins because there was no character called "The Joker" in it. But what it did have was a character named "Scarecrow" who wore a scary burlap mask and noose; and one named "Ra's Al Ghul" ("fake" Ra's, at least), an evil warlord with a flowing regal cape and full-on Fu Manchu look.

I am worried thus far that there won't be enough smiles. Not enough laughs. This is the Joker we're talking about. And if Nolan takes away too much for the sake of his own 'grounded in realism' (which the signs point to him doing this), then there is no hope for a satisfactory Joker in TDK.

Of course there are examples of things in Batman Begins that aren't all that realistic. But Nolan never took the comic book fun to the next level; he never went the extra mile (ex.: giving Scarecrow only a mask. No hat).... and the Joker needs that colorfulness and sadistic cheer. The Joker needs to be taken the extra mile as a villain.

 

[itsthebatman]

I am worried thus far that there won't be enough smiles. Not enough laughs. This is the Joker we're talking about. And if Nolan takes away too much for the sake of his own 'grounded in realism' (which the signs point to him doing this), then there is no hope for a satisfactory Joker in TDK.

Of course there are examples of things in Batman Begins that aren't all that realistic. But Nolan never took the comic book fun to the next level; he never went the extra mile (ex.: giving Scarecrow only a mask. No hat).... and the Joker needs that colorfulness and sadistic cheer. The Joker needs to be taken the extra mile as a villain.

Go to a Will Ferrell movie if you're looking for laughs. The Joker isn't funny. He thinks he is, but he's not. I've never laughed at his jokes. Even Jack's Joker wasn't funny - sticking out the tongue and pretending to fly away from Vicky Vale's apartment is not comedic genius. I think we are freaking out WAAAAYYYYYY too much about this. Ledger is a very good actor who is getting better and better, and, while not my first choice, I believe he can pull it off. I have no doubts that the Nolans can nail the character in a way that keeps us all happy.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I am worried thus far that there won't be enough smiles. Not enough laughs. This is the Joker we're talking about. And if Nolan takes away too much for the sake of his own 'grounded in realism' (which the signs point to him doing this), then there is no hope for a satisfactory Joker in TDK.

Of course there are examples of things in Batman Begins that aren't all that realistic. But Nolan never took the comic book fun to the next level; he never went the extra mile (ex.: giving Scarecrow only a mask. No hat).... and the Joker needs that colorfulness and sadistic cheer. The Joker needs to be taken the extra mile as a villain.

I honestly don't think you have that much to worry about. There's a reason Nolan ended Begins with the "escalation into theatricality" conversation. Joker will be a sideshow, I guarantee it. It's the arc that's building (straight from the comics) - "the freaks are taking over" Gotham. Nolan's Gotham hasn't seen anything like The Joker yet ("Wait'll they get a load of me" seems awfully appropriate here). In turn, neither have the fans, that's what's go them so worried. But that's what'll make him so much more impactful - he's a total space alien dropped right in the middle of an otherwise "normal" world.

And as far as comparing Joker and Scarecrow, it's really apples and oranges. Crane wasn't looking to make a scene (which the Joker most certainly IS), he only had that mask to scare the crap out of inmates. For it's purpose, it made sense (why would he throw a hat in his briefcase too?). The much more flamboyant (and unfortunately, cut short) Scarecrow that escaped Arkham on horseback is much more indicative of what's to come. He still didn't have "the costume" since he just skipped the madhouse, but he's got the bat***** crazy attitude alright.