The Dark Knight The Prestige, and Nolan's vision of theatricality (Joker)

[raybia]

That's a way of looking at it. Well, most villains of this evil magnitude are 2-dimensional. They're amazing (such as the Green Goblin), but they remain flat throughout the story. That means there isn't much moral change occuring from point A to point B (A-when the person becomes the villain, or the villain is first introduced, B-the end of the movie/resolution). If Nolan takes the approach of Joker gradually learning his own trade, then we arguably have a convoluted Joker that has an unprecedented depth from any other interpretation thus far.

It's possible that TDK will reflect the very early Golden Age Joker (the one we've all been talking about that will apparently be the inspiration), and then the third installment of Nolan's Batman trilogy will have Ledger's Joker formed into more something that *vaguely resembles B:TAS. I know that's jumping forward rather fast, through an entire era (skipping the Silver Age altogether).

*vaguely : I realize we won't receive a total B:TAS-esque Joker in the third installment. What I'm trying to say is that if the Joker is going to develop inside of the next two movies, then Nolan must convey a very obvious (and gradual) transformation.

And now: onto Phaser's post.

Yes, I agree and this is what I'm hoping for, praying for!

 

[kooguy911]

Ive been a nolan fan ever since I saw Momento back in 2000. Chris Nolan is a brilliant man, and i believe that all of his work is excellent (well.. except insomnia i didnt like that one too much). When I heard that he was going to direct the next batman movie, I was thrilled. I wouldn't pick anyone different then Chris Nolan to direct the new Batman franchise. Now, you must all understand, that Nolan loves to think outside the box. His films tend to be exactly 180 degrees then what people would expect them to be. This is exactly the case with batman begins. Some people may love the style, me myself am absolutley thrilled at how begins came out. Others, particularly those who really enjoyed Batman 89, will not like the style very much. Some might be in-between. It depends what you prefer. Theres no reason to argue over which style you liked, because its all personal preference. Fighting over which film is better is like fighting over which flavor of icecream is the best, its just stupid and its not like your actually going to convince anyone.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Ive been a nolan fan ever since I saw Momento back in 2000. Chris Nolan is a brilliant man, and i believe that all of his work is excellent (well.. except insomnia i didnt like that one too much). When I heard that he was going to direct the next batman movie, I was thrilled. I wouldn't pick anyone different then Chris Nolan to direct the new Batman franchise. Now, you must all understand, that Nolan loves to think outside the box. His films tend to be exactly 180 degrees then what people would expect them to be. This is exactly the case with batman begins. Some people may love the style, me myself am absolutley thrilled at how begins came out. Others, particularly those who really enjoyed Batman 89, will not like the style very much. Some might be in-between. It depends what you prefer. Theres no reason to argue over which style you liked, because its all personal preference. Fighting over which film is better is like fighting over which flavor of icecream is the best, its just stupid and its not like your actually going to convince anyone.

Completely agree - Burton and Nolan is an apples to oranges comparision anyway and appeal to different crowds, IMO.

Nice to meet another Old Skool Nolan fan, BTW.

 

[raybia]

Ive been a nolan fan ever since I saw Momento back in 2000. Chris Nolan is a brilliant man, and i believe that all of his work is excellent (well.. except insomnia i didnt like that one too much). When I heard that he was going to direct the next batman movie, I was thrilled. I wouldn't pick anyone different then Chris Nolan to direct the new Batman franchise. Now, you must all understand, that Nolan loves to think outside the box. His films tend to be exactly 180 degrees then what people would expect them to be. This is exactly the case with batman begins. Some people may love the style, me myself am absolutley thrilled at how begins came out. Others, particularly those who really enjoyed Batman 89, will not like the style very much. Some might be in-between. It depends what you prefer. Theres no reason to argue over which style you liked, because its all personal preference. Fighting over which film is better is like fighting over which flavor of icecream is the best, its just stupid and its not like your actually going to convince anyone.

I agree. BB is like Chocolate ice cream and Batman 89 is like vanilla and we know that more Americans prefer chocolate over vanilla! t: So great point Kooguy!

 

[raybia]

Completely agree - Burton and Nolan is an apples to oranges comparision anyway and appeal to different crowds, IMO.

Nice to meet another Old Skool Nolan fan, BTW.

I like your avy Miranda. Also, I just feel compelled to say that I always enjoy your posts and you are a welcome addition to the Bat boards and the Hype!

Glad you are here.

It going to be really fun around here over the next year and a half.

 

[Miranda Fox]

I like your avy Miranda. Also, I just feel compelled to say that I always enjoy your posts and you are a welcome addition to the Bat boards and the Hype!

Glad you are here.

It going to be really fun around here over the next year and a half.

Aww, thanks raybia. I happen to think you are extremely awesome. t:

 

[raybia]

Aww, thanks raybia. I happen to think you are extremely awesome. t:

Aww shucks!

 

[Miranda Fox]

Aww shucks!

t:

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm sure the Joker will be great.

The only question is, are people ready for an actually sadistic Joker.....and not some slap stick clown.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

And to answer that: I don't think BB ruined Scarecrow. As far as being an important part of the storyline, the acting and delivery, Scarecrow was good. It's just that the necessary cosmetics were incomplete.

And that's the point I made earlier. The fact that the cosmetics were "incomplete" was dictated purely buy the narrative. And that's the way to make a movie. I wouldn't want Nolan having to make up some contrived reason for Crane to stuff himself with straw and put on a ratty hat if it didn't fit the structure of the story. If it fits, it'll be in.

He was a respected doctor doing horribly illegal and unethical experiments on mental patients. Discretion was paramount; that's why he carried the bare essential that could easily fit in his briefcase - a gas mask that doubled as an extra bit of terror to add to his victim's headtrip.

Joker is the very antithesis of discretion, therefore the rules that applied to Crane logically do not apply to the Joker.

 

[raybia]

And that's the point I made earlier. The fact that the cosmetics were "incomplete" was dictated purely buy the narrative. And that's the way to make a movie. I wouldn't want Nolan having to make up some contrived reason for Crane to stuff himself with straw and put on a ratty hat if it didn't fit the structure of the story. If it fits, it'll be in.

He was a respected doctor doing horribly illegal and unethical experiments on mental patients. Discretion was paramount; that's why he carried the bare essential that could easily fit in his briefcase - a gas mask that doubled as an extra bit of terror to add to his victim's headtrip.

For these reasons, if Scarecrow was to return in the future, it would make more sense to see him dressed more like an actual scarecrow.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah. Because, namely, by the end of Batman Begins.....he was off the deep end. He doesn't even consider himself Crane anymore, he appears to have fully become Scarecrow. Atleast, he said so.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

For these reasons, if Scarecrow was to return in the future, it would make more sense to see him dressed more like an actual scarecrow.

Definitely. Like I said earlier, I think the horse-riding, full-on psycho Scarecrow that fled Arkham is more indicative than anything of what to expect in the rest of the series (minus the whole 'going out like a punk by taser' bit, hopefully). It heralded the beginning of "The freaks".

 

[raybia]

Definitely. Like I said earlier, I think the horse-riding, full-on psycho Scarecrow that fled Arkham is more indicative than anything of what to expect in the rest of the series (minus the whole 'going out like a punk by taser' bit, hopefully). It heralded the beginning of "The freaks".

Great statement!

 

[Silver Souper]

Nolan will solve this problem buy not giving us another B'89 or aka The Joker'89. Too much Joker will kill TDK. So I think he'll have a couple of other villains with substance.

are you sure? We have heard that others will be included; it's speculation so far.

[blackout]It was the obsession. Robert just couldn't accept the fact that Alfred, the man who(in his mind) killed his wife, could pull of that magic trick so easily. It's the same reason people won't beleve that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK. Our villains need to be something else, something superhuman. The obvious answer cannot be the truth, which is why Robert was so obsessed with it. He needed to be superhuman to defeat his "Villain". And Alfred used it to send him on wild goose chase.

It was coincidence with Tesla's clone machine. With a man who claimed to have designed deathrays, electromagnetic oscillator and other such doomsday devices, a cloning/teleportation system doesn't seem so far fetched with him. Especially if he was using it as a front to syphon away Robert's money to fund his research in electricity.[/blackout]

[blackout]Your judgement of the movie only reveals your lack of imagination and interest in fantasy. It was supposed to be fantastic. It represented how far Robert was willing to go to get revenge on Alfred, even if meant selling his soul to the devil to do it.
[/blackout]

Your first paragraph: duh. I understand the character's motivations. Second paragraph: You don't think it's far fetched? Okay
Third paragraph: Lack of imagination and interest in fantasy? ahaha nice try. See if you can follow this: You're watching a psychological thriller. The murderer is just about to escape at the end when- SLAM! a large alien foot stomps on the murderer, kills him and saves the day. Does that seem like a viable conclusion to a psychological thriller? No, it sounds like the story jumped the genre shark in order to get itself out of it's trapped narrative. And by pointing out the story's absurdity does not mean you don't like fantasy or sci-fi. It means you like both when they're introduced into films that follow their own rules. That's why the majority of fantasy and sci-fi films suck lately- they're lazily written and typically break the rules established by film's end.

The example you cited about Tesla is neither a plot hole nor a leap in logic, and certainly not absurd.

Can you better explain these alleged plot holes and leaps in logic in the Prestige? And also explain how exactly the ending violates reason and logic?

Also, unlike Shyamalan with the Village, Nolan provided many foreshadowings of the magicians's secrets and ending along the way, which I can list for you if you like. So the only reason you could feel cheated is if you failed to pick up on them and still don't realize that they were right there, which I don't mean as an insult. And there were even more clever hints than the flashback explanation during the ending pointed out. A good magic trick is not easy to figure out, and that's what the Prestige is in a large part -- a cinematic magic trick.

Tesla's machine is an ABSURD coinsidence and a stretch in reasoning, when applying the film's rules of reality. If you take the time to go back and read what I've posted, you'll see why I see it as an absurd coinsidence. In addition, out of the 10 or so people that I know who saw the Prestige, none of us liked it for similar reasons. According to rottentomatoes, the critical consensus for the prestige was lower than any of Nolan's previous efforts. It is worth pointing that out as a measuring stick. If you visit the site, you'll find plenty of critics who site similar objections.

Like:

The movie is more infuriating and contrived than suspenseful and clever.

By film's end, the notion of a rational and satisfying climax has hopelessly disappeared in a silly spiral of one-upmanship and a barrage of half-baked revelations that won't make you marvel so much as shrug and forget about them.

The Nolan brothers] have collaborated on a script that is sometimes on target, but hopelessly hamstrung by a wobbly second half for which its grand finale cannot compensate.

Parts of the film really stand out, but taken as a whole, it's a labyrinth of conflicting ideas.

By describing the structure of a great trick in a movie about a great trick, The Prestige makes a promise it can't keep. Its third act is about as convincing as a photo of a cow jumping over the moon.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I never said that they didn't care. I said that they themselves don't know any better about the characters they are expressing concerns over. Do you have a problem with proper reading comprehension, because this is the third time you read something I didn't say.

For some that is the case (not understanding the characters they are concerned about), but obviously not all. I suppose there was a slight muddle in comprehension of your post. It doesn't have to completely be my fault, you know. All right. Moving on.

If you dismiss my argument on the basis of the length of The Killing Joke, then there's no use discussing this with you any further. Granted, it was not an exceptionally extensive story, but there was a lot of Joker in it and just flipping through the pages you can see there were a lot of times you expect him to break into laughter like we have stereotypically known the Joker to do so over the years but he didn't.

It came across like you thought it was a considerable length. 'The entire story...' isn't very long. Therefore if the Joker laughs like a maniac two times throughout that short length, it makes TKJ somewhat contradict your point. And your point was: use the laugh sparingly.

If I flip through the pages and suspect that Joker will laugh at a certain event (instead of grinning or whatnot), that is totally subjective.

I'm not so sure that Alan Moore sat down and thought: "If we're too over-the-top, then the Joker will be cheesey... and readers won't take him seriously." What I believe Moore did was take adults into mind when creating his Joker interpretation. I seriously doubt he micro-managed when the Joker would laugh, and when the Joker wouldn't laugh. It simply turned out the way it did because of the demographic in mind.

Moving on.

I liked the B89 Joker, even though there was far more Jack Nicholson than Joker there. Nevertheless, I took it as a great Elseworlds interpretation and have no problem with it. As for being unreceptive of fans who prefer Burton over Nolan, it has a lot to do with their condescending mentality with which they brush away fans of Nolan's take as being somehow less 'cultured' and 'sophisticated' when it comes to appreciating cinema.

Glad that you enjoyed Nicholson's Joker. Also, yeah, there's no doubt he poured a lot of himself into the character. Nicholson turned on his crazy side and went to work.


Most of that superiority mentality from Burton-leaners, has to come from the fact that the majority of Batfans love Batman Begins. Tim Burton as a director has stood for individualism. He's apart from the crowd, and tried to make himself distinguishable in all possible fashions. Burtonites therefore tend to stray from being part of the majority when it's possible. I think some of that individualism rubs off on the people who watch the Burton films and take them to heart. They also feel (I included, perhaps regretably) that Burton is more of a director than Nolan could ever be, mainly because of the creative chances taken when making Batman'89 and Batman Returns ('89 made Joker the murderer of Bruce's parents. Returns made Penguin into a deformed sewer freak). And then there is Burton's vision itself. Dark, gritty, fantastical, mystical, and sometimes twisted to the core. Some people are naturally in love with that artistic melancholy. I'm one of them.

These days I don't have the time nor the energy to sit down and have a concise discourse with them, otherwise it's not hard expose the fallacies in their slanted criticism of Nolan's film and its fans. Granted, neither Burton's nor Nolan's films are perfect by a long stretch and both have their share of thickheaded radicals, but the fact remains that most of these so-called 'Nolanites' are newbies who can barely compose a grammatically correct post that can be easily dismissed but a lot of the Burtonites are actually well-articulated posters, but with their heads too far up their own asses to realize that yes, 'smart' fans can also love Begins.

That's accurate. In all fairness, I do see a lot of sick ass-kissing from Nolan fans. Sometimes it's from the intellectual ones, too (which makes it so much more pathetic). Moving on.

My approach towards TDK can be summed up in two words - curious optimism. Ever since Nolan brought Jonathan on board for writing duties, I was ecstatic, especially with promise of going even darker. I can't imagine how Ledger would play the Joker despite what he has revealed in interviews, but he has the smile. And his recent maturity as an actor also gives me hope that he most probably won't play it half-assed or give some cheap knock-off performance. Not to mention the fact that I simply loved The Prestige and can't wait to see how much Nolan improves TDK over BB. Of course, if something looks and sounds too good to be true, then chances are it probably is that way. My reservations are simply a kind of reality-check to keep myself from being disappointed when a stinker eventually does rear it's ugly head and these boards drown in chaos. I know this is an adaptation and there are bound to be changes, compromises will be made and ultimately many 'purists' and 'over-hypers' will be disappointed regardless of how good the film turns out to be. I know that at the end of the day, there is no way myself (or anyone else for that matter) is going to be 100% satisfied with any film over which they already had truckload of preconceived notions, if only for the simple reason that it wasn't how they imagined it to be and will go so far as hating the film for it.

Very logical of you. Most won't take that extra step to be semi-detached from the production hype.

And as you know, there's a difference between optimism and being just plain delusional. If this hype continues to strengthen, then fans are just going to start expecting a great movie that's impossible to create. They're already expecting so much out of TDK. How is Nolan going to stop from disappointing them? He cannot, because he is only human, as are all the production team. TDK could very well be a decent movie. I'll be the first to admit if it is. But fans need to stop elevating the status of its greatness (alas, before it even comes out), or else there can only be let-downs. Though: some fans won't acknowledge if it turns out to be a poor movie, and most likely won't acknowledge their own disappointment, if it comes to that.

My advice? Keep an open mind...and enjoy the ride.

I will put forth the effort to do so.

And I think the Scarecrow was pretty much perfect in BB, would have loved to see more of him though. Concerning the cosmetics, his final outfit - mask+straitjacket was, in my opinion, actually a much better look for the villain than how we've seen him in the comics.

Personally, I liked the Scarecrow that... moreso resembled a scarecrow. That's one reason for his name. Going just by Batman Begins, we could call him Sackhead. This is just me talking, man.

I said the Burtonites in the Batman Begins forum. If you are actually in agreement with the exaggerated critiques of Cyrusbales and DocLathropBrown about Begins being a 'travesty' and 'one big screwup', then you deserve to be slapped with the same label.

I love DocLathropBrown and his gang. That's not to say we're in agreement on everything. It's worth noting that he believes Begins to be a decent enough movie. By this time, at least.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The Prestige was a damn good film, I thought.

 

[Silver Souper]

I'm sure the Joker will be great.

The only question is, are people ready for an actually sadistic Joker.....and not some slap stick clown.

sure we are, we just don't want the flamboyant and theatrical aspects of Joker lost in the "darkness." He can be EXTREMELY dark and still extremely Joker.

 

[Silver Souper]

For these reasons, if Scarecrow was to return in the future, it would make more sense to see him dressed more like an actual scarecrow.

Yeah. Because, namely, by the end of Batman Begins.....he was off the deep end. He doesn't even consider himself Crane anymore, he appears to have fully become Scarecrow. Atleast, he said so.

Definitely. Like I said earlier, I think the horse-riding, full-on psycho Scarecrow that fled Arkham is more indicative than anything of what to expect in the rest of the series (minus the whole 'going out like a punk by taser' bit, hopefully). It heralded the beginning of "The freaks".

that sounds almost too good to be true. I hope this is what Nolan and Co. were setting up in begins. I want to see that full-on psycho Scarecrow!

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

that sounds almost too good to be true. I hope this is what Nolan and Co. were setting up in begins. I want to see that full-on psycho Scarecrow!

I'm optimistic that it's the creative direction Nolan's heading in. I think what has everyone so spooked is the "real world" that Nolan established in Begins. They naturally assume it'll extend to future characters like Joker.

But I think that's the brilliance of what Nolan is doing.

Nolan's world is beginning to experience a massive change, ironically brought upon by Batman himself (as Gordon alluded to at the end). This change will exacerbate over the course of the next two movies, exemplified in Joker and Two-Face.

The Arkham breakout was symbolic. It signified the beginning of a new era in Gotham City. The MADNESS is loose.

 

[Silver Souper]

I'm optimistic that it's the creative direction Nolan's heading in. I think what has everyone so spooked is the "real world" that Nolan established in Begins. They naturally assume it'll extend to future characters like Joker.

But I think that's the brilliance of what Nolan is doing.

Nolan's world is beginning to experience a massive change, ironically brought upon by Batman himself (as Gordon alluded to at the end). This change will exacerbate over the course of the next two movies, exemplified in Joker and Two-Face.

The Arkham breakout was symbolic. It signified the beginning of a new era in Gotham City. The MADNESS is loose.

you're correct to think so, that's definately the stage that's been set. i'll be heartbroken if the sequel is not a DIRECT extension of begins. often, sequels move to a second story arc and basically forget the things created to be answered from the previous installment. if we're correct, and nolan is building this up to release the crazies- we're in for the best comic book movie ever.

how great would it be to see villains stepping in and out of the spotlight a la the last halloween?

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

you're correct to think so, that's definately the stage that's been set. i'll be heartbroken if the sequel is not a DIRECT extension of begins. often, sequels move to a second story arc and basically forget the things created to be answered from the previous installment. if we're correct, and nolan is building this up to release the crazies- we're in for the best comic book movie ever.

how great would it be to see villains stepping in and out of the spotlight a la the last halloween?

I think he's more or less using Long Halloween as inspiration as far as the angle that "the freaks are taking over" from the old-school gangsters. Hell, one of them even turned Falcone himself into a raving loon.

We'll see that integration and rivalry between the Mob and the Freaks I think. From Joker particularly, who's being rumored to be on a revenge spree against old mob ties. Even if Black Mask makes his rumored appearance, he's kind of an example of a combination between both factions.

 

[Silver Souper]

I think he's more or less using Long Halloween as inspiration as far as the angle that "the freaks are taking over" from the old-school gangsters. Hell, one of them even turned Falcone himself into a raving loon.

We'll see that integration and rivalry between the Mob and the Freaks I think. From Joker particularly, who's being rumored to be on a revenge spree against old mob ties. Even if Black Mask makes his rumored appearance, he's kind of an example of a combination between both factions.

i agree that's the best guess for what the storyline will be. I love that it won't be so personal for Batman, more of a mess that's growing city-wide between the mobb and freaks as you say, and Batman has to dive in and fight a complicated and hellish war t:

 

[cryptic name]

Your first paragraph: duh. I understand the character's motivations. Second paragraph: You don't think it's far fetched? Okay
Third paragraph: Lack of imagination and interest in fantasy? ahaha nice try. See if you can follow this: You're watching a psychological thriller. The murderer is just about to escape at the end when- SLAM! a large alien foot stomps on the murderer, kills him and saves the day. Does that seem like a viable conclusion to a psychological thriller? No, it sounds like the story jumped the genre shark in order to get itself out of it's trapped narrative. And by pointing out the story's absurdity does not mean you don't like fantasy or sci-fi. It means you like both when they're introduced into films that follow their own rules. That's why the majority of fantasy and sci-fi films suck lately- they're lazily written and typically break the rules established by film's end.

that analogy doesn't work because the idea of cloning isn't randomly thrown in at the end. it's introduced mid-film.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

i agree that's the best guess for what the storyline will be. I love that it won't be so personal for Batman, more of a mess that's growing city-wide between the mobb and freaks as you say, and Batman has to dive in and fight a complicated and hellish war t:

Exactly. Batman's going to have his work cut out for him, you can be sure of that. I'm hoping the Arkham breakout is directly referenced, including the capture of Scarecrow (this is likely as Tim Booth has been confirmed to return as Zzasz).

I also like this angle because it echoes the Knightfall storyline. Ra's was the mastermind behind the breakout, however, instead of Bane.

Plus it's crazy to think that it's still a somewhat rookie Batman having to deal with it all. Let the mad skills of Nolan's Batman never again be doubted! Even the seasoned Bats in Knightfall "broke" under the pressure.

Get it? "Broke" under... yeah.