The similar evolution of Batman in the comics and Films

[Bruce Malone]

Hey a pretty interesting point of view, coincidence?:

Almost Like Someone Was Planning It


I was re-watching the Tim Burton directed Batman Returns last week when a thought occurred to me. If you look at the arch of Batman films that have been released since 1989’s Batman (also directed by Burton) through last year’s Christopher Nolan helmed The Dark Knight, they follow the same evolution in character depiction that the Batman comics have moved through over the years.

​

When the Batman character debuted in 1939 in Detective Comics #27, he was partially modeled after the pulp heroes and vigilantes that were popular of the day. Bob Kane and Bill Finger drew inspiration from The Shadow and The Spider, characters who hunted criminals as much as they protected the innocent. Like these pulp heroes, Batman was sinister and brooding, and not at all averse to letting the bad guy die. In these early Batman comics, Batman wouldn’t purposely kill the villain outright, but at the same time he wouldn’t try and save the villain.

http://www.brendanmckillip.com/labels/Comics.html Oct. 22nd entry

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Too bad they skipped the 70's Batman. That would've been damn good Batman movie.

 

[returntovoid]

Too bad they skipped the 70's Batman. That would've been damn good Batman movie.

The 70's didn't get skipped.

Batman Begins may have taken story elements from the 80's story Year One but it captured the tone of the 70's comics.

Ra's Al Ghul, a villain that was created in the 70's was the main villain and Batman Begins was down to earth like the 70's comics.

While, The Dark Knight was more like the 80's comics.

User TruerToTheCore wrote a well thought out post about assigning an Earth (comic decade) to all the Batman films, here's the link to that thread.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=325262

 

[david icke]

Hey a pretty interesting point of view, coincidence?:

There is a documentary on the SE Batman 89 dvd where a writer puts forth the same theory that the movies ape the evolution of the comics.

From memory, he says Batman and Batman Returns follow the oldest comics with the Catwoman being a more 90s ingredient. The shumacher films follow the Dick Sprang period with lots of colour and an exagerated cityscape with big props(except instead of big typewriters we get big man arm bridges).

My own takes differs slightly.
I agree with the first 3 angles. Burton's Batman films are most like the old killer Batman comics, with a little 90s thrown in.
Batman Forever is most certainly the Sprang era. Two-Face was quite the manic cackler when he wanted to be, even in the 70s and 80s. riddler was introduced in sprang era too with big grand gestures. Lots of colour, exagerated city.

Batman and Robin though, I would say apes the period of sci-fi alien battling Batman books that came shortly after the lighter toned Sprang crime tales. This is the period that almost saw the cancellation of the comicbook, just as B&R saw the cancelation of that particular continuity of the movies. B&R also features two sci-fi based villans for the first time in the series.
There is stuff to like in those old comics, but really you could have put Space Ghost or any other number of heroes in those roles and the story would have played out exactly the same, they are not Batman stories really. Just as Clooney only plays Bruce Wayne in a mask and is never 'Batman'.
Thanks to Dr Fredrick Whetheramhatshisface and the Comic code for the comics almost folding, and thanks to the watering down of the film franchise in regards to B&R doing in the film franchise for 8yrs.

So, Batman Begins comes on the scene and it's just like the period in the 70s when Batman was revitalised by Neal Adams and Denny O Neil. The character Ras Al Ghul is used, who was the most endurable name to join the rogue's gallery in the modern bronze or aluminium or whatever it's called age(yes, i am writing a book on this, there will be lots of asterixes telling you to look up stuff i am not sure about and am too lazy to).
Also uses work from Miller's seminal 80s Year One, bringing us up to...

The Dark Knight which embraces the philosophy of the Joker from TKJ in the 80s, and we have a depth brought to this character, and others like Harvey Dent, for the first time on film. Also encompasses relationships established in later works like The long Halloween. But, as possibly a first for BM films, influences the comics significantly, and we have GM bringing us a Joker who is cut up in the jowls and a character trait only hinted at before in comics such as 'A Death in the Family'.
Imagine what a big deal it would have been in the 80s or 90s if the Joker had seen Batman without his mask, now we understand the Joker more than ever and it can almost pass in a comic unnoticed when he does, the Joker does not care about who he is when Batman washes his hair.
So, the movies once again catch up with the comics, but while doing so, for the first time, the movies overtake the comics and it's they who have to catch up.

 

[returntovoid]

Catwoman being a more 90s ingredient.

How is the Catwoman from Batman Returns influenced by the 90's comics???

I thought the supernatural angle given to her in Returns was taken from the Catman character, in the comics.

So, Batman Begins comes on the scene and it's just like the period in the 70s when Batman was revitalised by Neal Adams and Denny O Neil. The character Ras Al Ghul is used, who was the most endurable name to join the rogue's gallery in the modern bronze or aluminium or whatever it's called age(yes, i am writing a book on this, there will be lots of asterixes telling you to look up stuff i am not sure about and am too lazy to).
Also uses work from Miller's seminal 80s Year One, bringing us up to...

The Dark Knight which embraces the philosophy of the Joker from TKJ in the 80s, and we have a depth brought to this character, and others like Harvey Dent, for the first time on film. Also encompasses relationships established in later works like The long Halloween. But, as possibly a first for BM films, influences the comics significantly, and we have GM bringing us a Joker who is cut up in the jowls and a character trait only hinted at before in comics such as 'A Death in the Family'.

This really explains why I liked/enjoyed Batman Begins more.

I'm a really huge fan of the Bronze Age Batman, I consider it the ultimate era for Batman comics. Early Golden Age would be a close second, for me.

 

[david icke]

How is the Catwoman from Batman Returns influenced by the 90's comics???

I thought the supernatural angle given to her in Returns was taken from the Catman character, in the comics.

I said that was the take of the guy on the documentary on the Batman 89 SE dvd, not my own theory. Have a look at the dvd doc if you've got it, he might go into why he thinks that, i haven't watched it in a while.
She is a more developed than she was before the 90s comics though. I suppose he just meant she was a modern take amongst a somewhat older killer take on Batman comics.
I never thought of the Catman supernatural connection before tbh. Did she really have 9 lives in the movie? I thought that was open to interpretation and she maybe just got lucky, but i suppose that was the same with Catman's outfit int he books too. He thought it gave him extra lives, everyone else thought he was crazy.

 

[Brother Jack]

I can see that, although it's not very cut-and-dry. For example while the Burton films are similar to Bob Kane's Batman there are still a few shades of the 80's in there, and Nolan's movies have a sort of blend with the most prominent one being the 70's O'Neil/Adams.

 

[david icke]

I can see that, although it's not very cut-and-dry. For example while the Burton films are similar to Bob Kane's Batman there are still a few shades of the 80's in there, and Nolan's movies have a sort of blend with the most prominent one being the 70's O'Neil/Adams.

Yeah, and I was just thinking, that's another thing about Nolan's Batman Begins, he's a globetrotting Batman. Just like he was in the first Ras Al Ghul story, climbing up the snow covered mountain to get to Ras' stronghold. I think that was a deliberate move to take BM out of Gotham a bit with a more international villan, touch of James Bond maybe.
More specifically I thought they got inspiration from that Batman issue 332 or 333 from 1989, where it started with the young BW climbing up a snow covered mountain to reach that master who taught him the 'vibrating palm strike', which now that I've typed it out sounds like it was designed originally for something besides crimefighting.

With Burton's first Batman movie, I know what you mean about a more modern sensibility being in there too, but if Batman comics had stopped being printed in the early 40s they would have had all the ingredients they needed to make that movie.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

As ReturnToVoid already said, I've written something about this uncanny coincidence.

 

[Fresh Prince]

I like Bob Kane/Bill Finger's version of Batman....But how was he sinister?...Anyways liked how he was not afraid to kill criminals.

 

[Brother Jack]

With Burton's first Batman movie, I know what you mean about a more modern sensibility being in there too, but if Batman comics had stopped being printed in the early 40s they would have had all the ingredients they needed to make that movie.

Well, I'm not sure the 80's feel was entirely intentional. I know Burton would have rather not have Prince music in the film which dates it pretty severely. Plus the fact that Batman was a borderline psychotic who killed people sort of seemed in tune with the more violent 80's with characters like Punisher.

 

[david icke]

Well, I'm not sure the 80's feel was entirely intentional. I know Burton would have rather not have Prince music in the film which dates it pretty severely. Plus the fact that Batman was a borderline psychotic who killed people sort of seemed in tune with the more violent 80's with characters like Punisher.

Actually I think you're right, although I would go with 80s screen heroes rather than comics. I've spent so many years thinking 'Oh, they're doing it like the BM of the early comics, the one who killed.', that I'm forgetting what my first instinct and impression of him killing in the movie was, and that it was just taking the easy way out and being like 80s action heroes onscreen, like Stallone's Rambo, Arnie's Commando etc etc.
I just read TruerToTheCore's assessment of the movies. He said that the Batman of the early comics only killed when he had to. If that is true, it does make it feel like they were just going for easy 80s action hero solutions, than being faithful to the early comics.
Batman just drives into the Axis chemicals factory and blows up all the crooks inside, instead of informing the police or taking them on guerilla warfare style. Just seemed like an excuse for an 80s action movie explosive scene, and an easy way to do the scene.

 

[The Joker]

I like Bob Kane/Bill Finger's version of Batman....But how was he sinister?

He often killed criminals, much like Burton's Batman did. That's what Keaton's Batman was based on. Which is why many cry foul when he's accused of not being accurate to the character of Batman.

Batman's gone through so many incarnations through the years, including being a killer.

 

[Fresh Prince]

I like Bob Kane/Bill Finger's Batman though....Other then Frank Miller thats my favorite Batman incarnation.

 

[Bruce Malone]

He often killed criminals, much like Burton's Batman did. That's what Keaton's Batman was based on. Which is why many cry foul when he's accused of not being accurate to the character of Batman.

Batman's gone through so many incarnations through the years, including being a killer.

I just read TruerToTheCore's assessment of the movies. He said that the Batman of the early comics only killed when he had to.

If this is true, then i wouldnt describe the early batman as being sinister. To be sinister would be to take plaeasure in the killings or to kill when other solutions were available. That description seems more like the mid-way between burton and nolans batman.

 

[david icke]

If this is true, then i wouldnt describe the early batman as being sinister. To be sinister would be to take plaeasure in the killings or to kill when other solutions were available. That description seems more like the mid-way between burton and nolans batman.

There is a panel that has been posted on this site in the past, and on Batmanmovieonline(the Burtoncentric site), that depicts the early version of Batman shoooting a machine gun from his bat-plane at criminals, this is to back up the Batwing scene in BM89.
But, in the panel Batman is saying something along the lines of ' I hate taking human life, except when it's absolutely necessary, and unfortunately this is one of those times.'
But in the Burton movie he's out for blood, he's trying to kill the joker after he has removed the threat to Gothams citizens(the balloons). Same as when he blows up Axis chemicals with the joker's goons in there, he expected the joker to be in there too.
It's after he finds out the Joker killed his parents that he turns into the Punisher, or any number of 80s revenge movie anti-heroes. Before that he tries to save Napier from the acid vat.
So, maybe not so accuarte to the early comics, unless he went through a bloodthirsty phase.

I wouldn't call Nolan's Batman a killer at all. Two-Face death was in defence of a child's life, and was a somewhat haphazard desperate move, so not really setting out to kill him. And he couldn't really have saved Ras Al ghul without leaving himslef open to being attacked and killed by Ras, Ras set in motion the event of his own death, he essentially killed himself.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

That's true. When Batman killed it was more collateral damage than cold-blooded murder. An exception would be when he killed the Monk but he was undead so that doesn't count So basically when Burton Batman killed the thug with the glasses by throwing him down the cathedral that was like the early comics, but as you said, blowing up an entire factory, not so much.

 

[david icke]

That's true. When Batman killed it was more collateral damage than cold-blooded murder. An exception would be when he killed the Monk but he was undead so that doesn't count So basically when Burton Batman killed the thug with the glasses by throwing him down the cathedral that was like the early comics, but as you said, blowing up an entire factory, not so much.

Yeah, I've only read a couple of those first pre-Robin Detective comics, in 'Batman from the 30s to the 70s'(Det27 and the DrDeath story) and 'The Greatest Batman stories ever told.'(That Monk story you referred to). Wasn't sure what kind of killer he was portrayed as in all the books until you said that about him.
Yeah, i never felt comfortable with those scenes that were straight out murder, they did just seem like they were taking some essential charcateristic of BM away from him.

 

[El Payaso]

Yeah, I've only read a couple of those first pre-Robin Detective comics, in 'Batman from the 30s to the 70s'(Det27 and the DrDeath story) and 'The Greatest Batman stories ever told.'(That Monk story you referred to). Wasn't sure what kind of killer he was portrayed as in all the books until you said that about him.
Yeah, i never felt comfortable with those scenes that were straight out murder, they did just seem like they were taking some essential charcateristic of BM away from him.

When in fact it was the other way around. batman was created that way and softened because of editorial reaons.

 

[Brother Jack]

When in fact it was the other way around. batman was created that way and softened because of editorial reaons.

Which over time resulted in a better Batman (IMO). It's similar to Superman, who in his original incarnation couldn't fly.

 

[El Payaso]

Which over time resulted in a better Batman (IMO).

Ok, you like that more. Thing is it' was not like Bob Kane and co came in and distorted Batman's nature. They were creating it.

It's similar to Superman, who in his original incarnation couldn't fly.

Well, they're different things. In Superman's case it's a super-power that changed, in Batman's it is part of his personality. On that respect Superman was more violent and sarcastic back in his first years. And well, for me both Batman and Superman's first years personality are better, but I'd combine them with what they became afterwards, but would keep coming back to the first days.

 

[returntovoid]

I said that was the take of the guy on the documentary on the Batman 89 SE dvd, not my own theory.

Does that documentary talk about the Batman films in retrospect by first starting with the 60's TV show???

Because I think this YouTube video might be a segment of it.

[YT]wCtV7huBBCA[/YT]

 

[david icke]

When in fact it was the other way around. batman was created that way and softened because of editorial reaons.

No, as it turns out, the aspect of his personality I was talking about has never been in the comics. In that regard I'm talking about a Batman who is out for blood, one who deliberately sets out to kill.
We're no longer talking about the oft repeated 'Batman killed in the early comics' p.o.v per se, we're talking about the hows and whys of the deaths he was involved in that took place in the books.
As TruerToTheCore has said, the deaths in the comics resulted from self defence/collateral damage, BM in the comics was never a Punisher type who set out to kill criminals.
So, as I said in my earlier posts, the BM who sets out to kill the Joker and his mobsters by bombing the factory, and tried gunning down the Joker, is not accurate to the books. He's more akin to an 80s revenge movie type.

 

[david icke]

Does that documentary talk about the Batman films in retrospect by first starting with the 60's TV show???

Because I think this YouTube video might be a segment of it.

[YT]wCtV7huBBCA[/YT]

No, I just watched it, that one was made for the release of Batman in '89.
The one I'm talking about was made for the 2005 release of the SE dvd.
You should really buy that dvd, it has the best extras. It has the storyboards for the aborted inclusion of Robin in Batman89 set to music and Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill doing their thing. Best extra ever.

 

[Fresh Prince]

Ok, you like that more. Thing is it' was not like Bob Kane and co came in and distorted Batman's nature. They were creating it.



Well, they're different things. In Superman's case it's a super-power that changed, in Batman's it is part of his personality. On that respect Superman was more violent and sarcastic back in his first years. And well, for me both Batman and Superman's first years personality are better, but I'd combine them with what they became afterwards, but would keep coming back to the first days.

I think Batman/Superman when thy first started out was better too....Also loved the Punisher like aspects of Batman early on.

Also that story about the Monk?....That should be adapted into a live action film one day....Heard the story was amazing....What was it about exactly?....I know Batman was in his first or second year crime fighting at the time.