The Themes and Metaphors of "Batman Forever"

[ShaneHelms]

X-Men Homosexual undertones?

Do tell more Indy.. err um Socko.

 

[Mr. Socko]

X-Men Homosexual undertones?

Do tell more Indy.. err um Socko.

Several different kinds. You could say there's undertones of homosexual themes and then there's flat out homosexuality undertones. X-Men containing the former while Batman Forever(specifically Riddler) and Apt Pupil containing the latter.

 

[juarez]

No, it's just that...The Riddler should not be flaming and wearing a tiara. If filmmakers want to make something like Brokeback, fine, all the power in the world to them. But don't inject homoerotic subtext into characters that have never had them before.

Wait, you just compared Brokeback Mountain, a serious depiction of the way societal homophobia can destroy lives...... to a film with an overly-giddy Jim Carrey?! Yeah, they're comparable alright

A camp Riddler does not equal a gay Riddler. Theatricality does not equal homosexuality. Also note how Riddler was pretty flirty/taken with Nicole Kidman in the film.

And you really think that Baman never had any homoerotic subtext? Go re-read some of the 50s era stories. Granted in recent times the commentary on this era has unfortunately been the level of: "huh huh two guys living together huh huh" but a case can still be argued for it, albeit it only containing a gay subtext in retrospect.

 

[juarez]

But it's gay! And that's wroooong!!

If a movie has any homosexual undertones whatsoever, it is therefore a bad movie, especially if it's Batman who is clearly the most hetrosexual character ever.

......... no,........ that has to be ironic................... right?

 

[juarez]

I'll use Bryan Singer's films as an example. X-Men had homosexual undertones there and it worked quite well. No one really had a problem with it. Apt Pupil, on the other hand, handled it badly, the homosexual undertones didn't belong and worsened the entire film.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

What were the homosexual undertones of Apt Pupil? Granted I've not seen it in awhile. You mean between Mckellen's character and the boy? That was a mentor relationship wasn't it? The only other gay thing about the film I can recall is Mckellen inviting the hobo guy into his house in order to kill him, and the hobo guy assumes Mckellen wants to sleep with him.

 

[Mr. Socko]

LOL! I wasn't even thinking about that part where the hobo. There did seem to be something going on between Dussander and the boy, Bowden, though I'm sure you'll just tell me I'm just delusional. Granted, you must have felt a gay tone between the two as well to just pop their relationship up out of the blue. Then there is Singer's added ending where Bowden tells the Counselor that he will tell everyone they've been sleeping together and how strange it will look that a counselor has given a student his address and phone number. Was there a reason why Bryan Singer felt the need to do this? Especially when Stephen King's original ending was much more powerful.

However, even through all of that, I felt it was a fairly decent film. But this is the Batman board, not Apt Pupil so I'll stop here.

 

[juarez]

LOL! I wasn't even thinking about that part where the hobo. There did seem to be something going on between Dussander and the boy, Bowden, though I'm sure you'll just tell me I'm just delusional. Granted, you must have felt a gay tone between the two as well to just pop their relationship up out of the blue. Then there is Singer's added ending where Bowden tells the Counselor that he will tell everyone they've been sleeping together and how strange it will look that a counselor has given a student his address and phone number. Was there a reason why Bryan Singer felt the need to do this? Especially when Stephen King's original ending was much more powerful.

However, even through all of that, I felt it was a fairly decent film. But this is the Batman board, not Apt Pupil so I'll stop here.

Ok, well I'd ask why it is you believe there is something going on between Mckellen's character and the boy, what evidence do you have to support this from the text? Is it merely because you can't conceive of an intense relationship between two males that isn't homosexual perhaps? (note I said perhaps) And no I didn't posit their relationship because I feel a gay subtext there, merely because they're the main characters/relationship in the film so I assumed that they were who you were referring to. As for the ending with the counselor, the boy was just blackmailing him using the fear that he could lose his job, there wasn't any genuine homosexual desire there so I wouldn't say it's gay subtext. More like explicit blackmail text.

 

[Darkness Falls]

This is to all the people who consistantly bring up the GAY Comments towards batman forever


Please keep them to yourselves
as they're are some of us who like the film for what it is
so back off


DF

 

[Mr. Socko]

This is to all the people who consistantly bring up the GAY Comments towards batman forever


Please keep them to yourselves
as they're are some of us who like the film for what it is
so back off


DF

You're in the wrong thread then, son. This is a thread for the dissection of the film Batman Forever and all of the themes it presents. Some may be relevant to homosexuality. If you don't feel comfortable talking about it, you are free to leave. Like if we were discussing the themes of Spike Lee's film Jungle Fever, it's not secret that the theme of racism would come up.

 

[Penismightier]

This is to all the people who consistantly bring up the GAY Comments towards batman forever


Please keep them to yourselves
as they're are some of us who like the film for what it is
so back off


DF

You're not going to like what I post next.

 

[Penismightier]

Here it is people, my 1500 word dissection of The Riddler and all of his rampant homoeroticism. Copyright 2007, Penismightier. All Rights Reserved. Do not post anywhere else without my permission, etc. I hope you all get a laugh or two out of it:

​

Batman Forever: Batman, under the direction of Joel Schumacher, adopts a bisexual lifestyle.


Oh, Batman Forever. The subtle Batman movie directed by Joel Schumacher. Not quite the debacle of Batman and Robin, but not quite the real, actual Batman movie that resembles the two films Tim Burton directed in any way shape or form. On the surface, some may say that the film is just Burton’s films with the camp factor turned up. No, dear readers, it is not. We are about to go on a journey into what screenwriter Akiva Goldsman and director Joel Schumacher were thinking when they made this movie.

I’m not here to mince words, it wastes both of our time, so I won’t. The Riddler was gay. Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. Let’s explore this, shall we? Edward Nygma, professional (insert generic job to serve the plot) in the tech division of Wayne Enterprises, no wife or children. Okay, he’s a workaholic. A workaholic that has pin-ups of his boss and idol that are from various magazines. All over his cubicle. Mr. E. Nygma is one copy of Photoshop away from having Bruce Wayne’s face ‘shopped onto the bodies of Playgirl centerfolds.

Take for example, the scene where Bruce Wayne makes his rounds to inspect the progress his employees are making in their various projects. As Bruce is doing this, Edward shakes in his cubicle before finally mustering the courage to stop hyperventilating and shake Bruce’s hand. Of course, it goes without saying that Edward babbles on incoherently about his invention while gushing over Bruce Wayne, much in the same fashion as a woman would gush over Johnny Depp. When Edward’s boss, played by Ed Begley Jr., comes over to prevent Bruce from being raped right then and there, Edward looks at him with disgust, as no one interrupts Edward while he’s speaking with his man. I credit Mr. Wayne for putting up with this nonsense from an employee, but eventually he has enough and rejects Edward’s crackpot idea of tampering with brainwaves. If only Schumacher was that smart.

What happens after Edward’s “rejection” by Bruce Wayne is pure gold. The following dialog is spoken by Edward as Bruce walks away: “You were supposed to understand. I’ll make you understand”. Nygma says this with all choking back tears and sounding like a woman scorned. Fortunately for Bruce Wayne, Nygma doesn’t follow him into the bathroom for an impromptu “sword fight”. Edward decides to take out his rage on Ed Begley instead. You see, Mr. Nygma decided to work late into the night. Begley walks into his cubicle to see him working on the invention Bruce Wayne had rejected earlier that day. Begley, showing a rare moment of intelligence in this film, fires him on the spot. Nygma then tap dances in his helmet, ties Begley to a chair, and send him out the window, where Begley tumbles down the waterfall to his demise. When Edward says, “Surf’s up Big Kahuna!”, I can only think of what kind of other watersports he was hoping to engage in with Bruce Wayne.

Instead of focusing on his career and getting over Bruce Wayne, Nygma does the only sensible thing: He quits his job and begins sending Bruce some creepy riddles. Haven’t we all been there? I thought not. Some fairly uninteresting things happen in the movie, then we see Edward in his apartment, watching television. We think to ourselves, “Hey, he’s getting on with his life, good for him”. Then he starts laughing like a hyena at the death of some acrobats he has no connection to whatsoever. What has our little Edward found so wonderful? Two-Face. Edward sees Harvey “Two-Face” Dent, played by Tommy Lee Jones, as his way of getting back at Bruce Wayne. In his mind, “cheating” on Bruce Wayne with Two-Face is the perfect way to strike at his imaginary lover’s heart. And how exactly does he decide to go about “attracting” Two-Face? That’s right, dressing up in a bright pink wig and a skintight bodysuit made entirely of green spandex with little question marks all around. Androgyny, thy name is Edward Nygma.

We’ve all seen this. Some girl gets rejected by her big crush, then starts dating the bad boy who just wants to corrupt her innocent and fragile vagina, all to get back at the original crush. Well, this time it’s The Riddler getting back at Bruce Wayne, and accomplishing this feat by seducing Two-Face. Two-Face is quite a conundrum in this movie. He has two pretty girls at his beck and call, and basically shows no interest in them romantically. But when The Riddler comes knocking on his door, he shows him the kind of treatment only a bad boy with a heart of gold can. Sure, he sticks a gun in his face, but when he does it he’s basically on top of him. He’s merely asserting his dominance in the relationship. He’s saying, “There will be no doubt over who will be top and who will be bottom here, Mr. Green Spandex”. And what are we, the audience, to think about all of this? There are two ladies over there wanting to feed you a gourmet meal and probably partake in on a threesome, and if you were any closer to The Riddler you’d be inside of him. Men in skintight spandex beat out women any day of the week in Schumacher’s universe.

The jewel heist scene, which is for all intents and purposes Riddler and Two-Face’s first date, is also an example of Two-Face’s dominance. During the robbery, Two-Face teaches Riddler how to assert himself (be less submissive) by punching a guy (sodomy). You see, Two-Face wants to be the husband, but hey, his butthole needs pleasure too. The shot in the car after the robbery is incredibly telling, as well, and is also a sign of what’s to come for The Riddler. In this car, after a robbery, Riddler is, believe it or not, wearing a diamond tiara. Pink wig, green spandex, diamond tiara, and flaming.

The robbery was all to fund Nygma’s invention, which makes him fabulousy wealthy and a part of Gotham’s social elite in, oh, a week and a half. This all culminates in a scene at a classy party to launch Nygma’s device. At this shindig, Nygma of course runs into Bruce Wayne, whose date is GASP! A woman! Nygma has a date as well: Sugar, played by a half-naked Drew Barrymore. Edward has Drew Barrymore on his arm that evening and basically treats her with disdain. She’s the classic beard, trying to turn men that simply crave cock towards her vagina, with no avail. Surprisingly, Nygma asks Bruce Wayne’s date, played by Nicole Kidman, to dance. Could this be a turning point into heterosexuality for Edward? No, he spends the entire dance staring at Bruce Wayne.

Long story short, Riddler with the help of his device, figures out that Bruce Wayne is Batman. This leads to an elaborate trap that leads Batman into Riddler’s hideout. Words do not do justice to what transpires next. Batman encounters The Riddler atop his throne, adorned in a brand new spandex outfit. It’s covered in bright sequins. His pink hair is also done up for the first time in the film. It’s like he was all dolled up for the prom, and he was expecting Batman to be his date. Don’t wait up Ma, Edward Nygma wants to see the back seat of the Batmobile tonight!

From there, we get a game that Riddler challenges Batman to. Well, it seems Batman has to choose to save either his lady love Nicole Kidman, or Robin. Nice try, Edward. We all know you want Batman to condemn both of them to a watery grave so that you and he could jet off to Rio. No luck, as Batman does his thing and saves them both, thereby affirming his own acceptance of his, “double life”. It’s almost as if Batman said, “Hey Edward, I can have the Boy Wonder AND the girl, while all you get is that scab-faced freak that used you until you put out”. Then Batman kills Two-Face, thereby completely destroying Riddler’s love life.

Our story ends as Edward gets placed into Arkham Asylum, all for being the stalker we’ve all known him to be for the last two hours. Oh, and brainwashing all of Gotham City probably had something to do with it as well. And what is our friend Edward doing in the loony bin? That’s right, he thinks he’s Batman. I can only imagine what the psychiatrists discuss regarding his case. I think we all know by now that Edward longed to be inside Batman, and this was his only way of accomplishing that feat. His soul is linked with Batman’s, like, forever. Yeah, that’s it.

 

[Batman Beyond]

This is ridiculous.

 

[Penismightier]

Of course it's ridiculous. A ridiculous movie leads to a ridiculous analysis. Although my essay is intended to be a comedy piece, my arguments hold water.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Whew! That was a long one. Hysterical write-up, much of it very true. That was a great dissection! I'm sure The Joker(user) will love that one. Carrey was hilarious as The Riddler. A job well done.

 

[Cyrusbales]

^^^^ Wow, do you like conspiracy theories as well?

 

[Penismightier]

Totally different thing, conspiracy theories and film analysis are. If anyone would like, I'm interested in writing up more of these types of things for characters throughout the Batman films. All superhero films, even, I'm an endless supply of this sort of thinking. I'm actually going to be writing in the next few months a 15 page serious analysis of The Joker across all mediums and including all incarnations of the character.

 

[Cyrusbales]

The thing is, the direction of Forever is so slap dash, you can use it to mean anything, because it isn't as focused and care wasn't taken throughout, it was thrown together giving it whatever meaning people want it to have.

 

[Penismightier]

It wasn't just in the direction, it was in the script too, which they took the time to write after Batman Returns. If it were merely thrown together in a slipshod manner, the whole thing would just be a mess. But no, there is a definite trend with examples from many scenes throughout the film illustrating The Riddler's homosexual undertones.

 

[Cyrusbales]

The same can be said for his child-complex, how he is sexually undeveloped, and sees bruce more like a father etc.

There's loads out there.

 

[Mr. Socko]

^^^^ Wow, do you like conspiracy theories as well?

You seem tense. How about I get you outta that black dress, Doctor?

We all have secret agenda'st:

The thing is, the direction of Forever is so slap dash, you can use it to mean anything, because it isn't as focused and care wasn't taken throughout, it was thrown together giving it whatever meaning people want it to have.

Of'course, that's why he jokingly made that assertion. I thought Carrey did a good job, but I'm always up for a few laughs.

 

[Cain]

Totally different thing, conspiracy theories and film analysis are. If anyone would like, I'm interested in writing up more of these types of things for characters throughout the Batman films. All superhero films, even, I'm an endless supply of this sort of thinking. I'm actually going to be writing in the next few months a 15 page serious analysis of The Joker across all mediums and including all incarnations of the character.

Interesting project and good luck with piecing it together. If I were you though I'd wait till at least next July though might as well for an even more complete analysis of The Joker in all media. Then again you could always update it.

 

[Cain]

The same can be said for his child-complex, how he is sexually undeveloped, and sees bruce more like a father etc.

There's loads out there.

"OK you have a point."

 

[Darkness Falls]

You are aware there were other themes besides homosexuality

like

Revenge
Obsession
Rebirth

 

[Penismightier]

You are aware there were other themes besides homosexuality

like

Revenge
Obsession
Rebirth

Yeah, but comedy is comedy. My essay simply focuses on the homosexual undertones of The Riddler character. It's not intended to be something that includes every little thing in the movie. It's just one interpretation of a character within the film.

 

[tekken]

batman forever is actually my favorite batman movie next to batman begins. that probably sounds crazy, but i thought it was really good...seeing all the special features and stuff made me appreciate it a little more than i used to.

the deleted scene where he reads the red book was awesome. after he got shot, his memory was lost, so alfred takes him down to the cave to show him that he's batman. i guess bruce forgot he was batman or something...

anyways, bruce reads his dad's diary(the red book) and figured out that he wasnt responsible for his parents' death, and realized that he became batman basically to run away from his fear. and then this huge bat comes out of no where, and there's a matrix scene where the camera circles around bruce facing the bat. i thought it was a really good scene; it's a shame it was taken out. and the movie would just make so much more sense with it in there.

and despite everyone's hate on the 1966 batman series, i actually like all the homages to it. i actually liked robin saying "holy rusted metal batman." and actually...if anyone really hates the old series, go check out "Return to the Batcave: The Misadventures of Adam West and Burt Ward." it kinda makes u like it...it's almost like their life on set reenacted.