The Tim Burton/Kevin Smith Feud

[GoogleMe94]

exactly what? Burton's Batman put the character back on the "cultural radar" and the sold issues rose and rose.

Batman Begins had almost no effect.

agreed, i dont think anyone ever will be able to really "change" or "reinvigorate" batman the way that burton did. not saying nolan didnt do his fair share of refreshing the character with a different kind of life and vibe, but really, alot of what nolan did had already been done and established in past films. batman still has a basic black rubber suit and cowl that has been present in all the batman films thus far, even the new one, BB had the villian trying to gas the city........already been done. only thing nolan did for batman that hasnt really been done before was that he gave batman an origin film and attempted to make him in a more realistic light, but is that really saying much? ok, hes realistic, ok, we now know where he got his toys, yes the movie is a bit more faithful (but havent all the past films been pretty faithful, minus B&R?) but what did nolan REALLY do to change batman? like i said, nothing that hasnt already been done before. but what more can you do with a character that has been in 5, now 6 films? theres only so much you can do. the comics you can continue to do and explore stuff, but the movies....there is a limit i think, especially when your going to make the character realistic and take away all the fantasical elements till your left with....bleh.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

yeah they rose and rose then stopped!

What kind of self-important rhetoric is that? It doesn't make any sense and isn't even clever. If it "stopped" it would be because of Batman and Robin.

Begins brought the respect the character deserved and concentrated on the character in the title BATMAN lol

Um.... maybe you don't know this, being 12 and all, but before Burton's film? Everyone thought of Batman as a pudgy guy in tights with Robin, who's probably Gay with him and is one big joke.

Without Burton's film, you wouldn't have your precious Batman Begins. And that is an undeniable fact. Burton dared to be the man to ride a potential flop. By BB, the public accepted that Batman was dark. If B89 had flopped, all of it's careers would have been shattered, and WB would have never bothered with Batman again, except maybe as a comedy.

And Burton focused all on Batman. They just don't shove it in your face, so you're obviously not sophisticated enough to read between the lines.

all in all burtons batman is only great in most poeples thoughts due to its gothic look and take

And once again, a self-important piece of rhetoric. You're good at pretending you know things, but you fail yet again.

If you knew anything about any Batman comics beyond what's being published this year, you'd know just how accurate Burton's films are. Nolan made just as many changes as Burton did. Which isn't a whole lot. I could educate you about what you don't understand about Burton's films.... but something tells me you wouldn't get it anyway. Or care. You just want to keep believing the myth that Tim Burton some kind of comic-book hating moron. Go ahead and keep fooling yourself. If you really care, you'll research the production of Burton's two movies yourself.

I admire the burton films and respect wat it did for the character

No you don't, otherwise, you'd realize how wrong you are.

but begins did what the majority of fans wanted which was adapting teh right source material, and giving us the proper batman from the comics!

Once again, you fail at arguing. But that's okay. You don't know anything about Batman. So I forgive you. That's the problem with fans being a whole generation behind when it comes to Batman. Batman changes so often that a whole generation thinks the previous one was wrong, because the new generation doesn't know jack about the character.

Burton's films are just as accurate as Nolan's. FACT. The fact that Burton doesn't overexplain things like we're ******ed is just a bonus.

 

[Jack Ups]

lol wayyyy to go over the top , no need to get wound up about it , we were discussing that's all, but thanks for giving me a great impression of yourself.

and ive been a Batman fan since 1975 , but thanks for your thoughts

 

[Superwoman Prime]

That's the sort of DLB post I love reading. I guess he hasn't lost his flare after all.

 

[Gilpesh]

Fun article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/09/28/bfshone28.xml

 

[Cain]

yeah they rose and rose then stopped!

Wait so you've been a fan since 1975? yet you fail to remember that since the late 80's Batman has outsold every other DC hero on a pretty consistent basis. For crying outloud Arkham Asylum was DC's best selling graphic novel for how many years? Knightfall, Knightsend, Prodigal, Contagion, Legacy, Cataclysm, No Man's Land all the books featured in those events were best sellers inspite of Batman & Robin. So how did they stop selling?

I won't even get into the rest of your post as doc already covered that ground. I will say this though there is education on Burton's movies faithfulness to the mythos all over this thread. It seems like you have chosen to ignore it though. Englehart and Rogers still wrote the definitve Batman run in my eyes and if you don't see for example what elements were lifted from that run and used in Burton's first film then I have to say you're more than likely not as well versed in Batman lore as you'd like to appear to be.

 

[Jack Ups]

lol DC best selling graphic novel was death of superman.
and i would prefer the city and atmosphere from the Burton films the characterisation's from new ones

I remeber when 89 came out and it was great, i mean i hate the 60's batman , so it was great to see everyone take it serious, but it also think that while it was greathey made it a tad bit too dark, -but that was probs wat was needed

while i appreciate and i am enjoying the discussion lol you guys are huge fans of the Burton filsm while i am not, doesnt say im any less of a batman fan

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

wow this debate is still goin on, what did I miss??

 

[Cain]

Truthfully even if I preferred any other live action Bat film to Burton's my posts in this thread will still look exactly the same. BATMAN just happens to be the only live action Batman movie so far that had me saying "wow" when the credits rolled. It's not like I think it's flawless or something. Nobody is saying you're a lesser fan for it. However when you go around popping stuff as fact on a message board you got to make sure you're correct or expect to get called out for it.

I'm just a scientific thinker so I'm highly fond of factual evidence. When I see the truth being misconstrued and have knowledge of what the truth is I try my best to clarify the facts. I don't believe in having knowledge and selfishly keeping it to yourself. All I believe in is making sure the truth is out there (no X-Files).

I'll just say that it's not a coincidence that fans who are well versed in everything from the golden age, to the silver age and modern age of Batman comics always manage to clearly see the influences from those comics used in each Batman movie. Well unless I'm a telepath and have a mental connection with millions of batfans across the globe then it's definitely not coincedence. Where as fans who are only really familiar with one era (now a days more often than not the modern age) never seem to notice. Doesn't mean both groups of fans are not big fans of the character just that one is more prone to misinformation than the other. It's just a reflection of their knowledge of the mythos but not everybody is obligated to know all 70 years of Batman comics history to be considered a huge fan either at least IMO.

 

[Cain]

Oh yeah and AA lasted quite a long while as DC's most successful graphic novel. Death of Supes trades came out long after the event was done and by that point AA was a few years old. If you don't believe me then you're on the internet so I suggest you look it up yourself.

 

[Cain]

wow this debate is still goin on, what did I miss??

Quit being lazy and read for yourself

one notable thing you did miss is on the last page where I posted a Wizard article that discussed Tim Burton's pre-Sam Hamm Batman treatment. I think you'd appreciate seeing something like that it was....interesting to say the least.

 

[The Guard]

I would love to read that treatment in it's entirety one day.

I have a copy at home. That description about what it consists of. There are bits and pieces of dialogue in the actual treatment. It's really not bad. Very "Silver Age", with some Golden Age elements.

Remember, it was 1985. Some of it is a bit cheesy by today's standards.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

lol wayyyy to go over the top , no need to get wound up about it , we were discussing that's all, but thanks for giving me a great impression of yourself.

and ive been a Batman fan since 1975 , but thanks for your thoughts

THAT's the best rebuttal you've got? How about actually responding to the points I've made and prove to everyone that you're right?

Of course you can't.

 

[DocLathropBrown]

i mean i hate the 60's batman

My question is this: how can any real Batman fan say that they hate the 1960s series? Not only is it accurate to the comic books of the time, but it saved the comics from cancellation. Not to mention the fact that in spite of the camp, it's still undeniably Batman. Costumes, performances and all. It's a show that, on the surface, doesn't seem like it's ashamed of it's comic book origins.

Although after the film version, the second season was only okay and the third season was damn-near terrible.

 

[Jack Ups]

because it sucks lol
man peeps were right there some right crazy peeps on this part of the forum
niceeeeeeeeee

 

[Super_Ludacris]

wow this debate is still goin on, what did I miss??

You know...

 

[Noir]

"Im a kooky guy, I make Movie Magic" *does Vogue hand poses*t:

Yeah it was funny, but people need to stop taking Kevin seriously, he was obviously kidding around. Even Burton knows that, its all good.


LMAO@ Bumble Ward .....Yo Kev was straight lunching on this dude.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

Inspiring....

 

[Noir]

I think I should by a pair of those glasses

 

[Jack Ups]

lol thats pretty damn funny lol

though threw it all i really doubt Burton starting saying insults in that manner lol

 

[Cain]

For some reason I'm craving for a box of these

 

[DocLathropBrown]

because it sucks lol
man peeps were right there some right crazy peeps on this part of the forum
niceeeeeeeeee

You must be twelve. Not just becuase you thought THAT line was clever. Obviously, you can't follow my (by default) advanced line of thinking, so your only response is to say "you're crazy!" or "You're wrong!"

I'll tell you a secret.... we're not crazy here. We're just smarter. Well, except for GoogleMe, who argues about as well as a box of donuts.

Any hardcore Batman fan who can think intelligently enough to accept that there's more than just one valid interpretation of the character loves the 1960s series. In all of my experience in the fandom, the only people who I've found hate it are children, or they're not much more mature than one.

But due to your arguments, it's obvious that all you know about Batman amounts to what Christopher Nolan has done and what the other fans in your age group tell you to believe. I've found that if a "fan" isn't a fan of the 60s series at least to a small degree, they really aren't classifiable as a fan at all.

 

[Noir]

How did the Batman show of the 60s suck?
It was, like it or not.. Batman and how he was.. your not a fan if you can't respect all interpretations of the character.

That being said, Tim Burton sucks.

 

[El Payaso]

How did the Batman show of the 60s suck?
It was, like it or not.. Batman and how he was.. your not a fan if you can't respect all interpretations of the character.

That being said, Tim Burton sucks.

Based on the last line of your post one can safely conclude - according to your own logic - that you fail at being a fan because you fail at having respect for all incarnations of the character.

Being that the case I congratulate your honesty and despise your limited vision of the character. Which, btw, explain so much about this thread and what you've said in it.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Quit being lazy and read for yourself

one notable thing you did miss is on the last page where I posted a Wizard article that discussed Tim Burton's pre-Sam Hamm Batman treatment. I think you'd appreciate seeing something like that it was....interesting to say the least.

thanks hah I appreciate it, its hard to type on here my right hand is broken so im not able to post as much for a few weeks!