The Ultimate Jossverse Thread

Ehhh.... I found Kennedy, Dawn on occasion and dreadlocked Slayer to be far more annoying.
I liked Kennedy so I didnt find her annoying. Who is dreadlocked Slayer? Dawn was annoying sometimes but I always found Jonathaon irritating. I never understoof the fascination with him
 
I liked Kennedy so I didnt find her annoying. Who is dreadlocked Slayer? Dawn was annoying sometimes but I always found Jonathaon irritating. I never understoof the fascination with him

I'm not sure how anyone could find Kennedy not annoying... just about everytime she spoke, I wished Buffy would pull out the scythe, decapitate her, turn to Willow and say "Sorry Will, I guess the third times the charm."

I cant remember dreadlocked slayer's name. All I remember is that she annoyed the **** out of me. She was the one that, when the Scoobies (wrongfully!!!) kicked Buffy out of the Summers house, said "Ding dong the witch is dead".

And as for Jonathan, I'm lukewarm about him. The Buffyverse was filled to the brim with great characters, and he was just mediocre. But at the same time, he wasnt that annoying.
 
I liked Kennedy so I didnt find her annoying. Who is dreadlocked Slayer? Dawn was annoying sometimes but I always found Jonathaon irritating. I never understoof the fascination with him
Dreadlock slayer is Rona. Kennedy was annoying until season 8 came along, I think maybe it was her actress, but in the comic book she's actually sorta fun.
 
Oh Rona. Now I remember. Yeah she was annoying, but she wasnt on enough to be one of the most annoying in the entire series
 
I'm gonna pipe in with an unpopular opinion and say that for me, Xander was one of the most irritating characters in the Buffyverse. Ever since his complete inability/unwillingness to distinguish between Angel and Angelus and that devious little move he made in the S2 finale, I've hated the twerp. The hate dissipated in later seasons, but it came back in S7 - I was actually cheering when Caleb gave him the eye-poke (which I'm pretty sure was not the emotional response they were going for). He did get plenty of funny lines which Nicholas Brendon delivered perfectly, but it wasn't enough to make me like the character. The only time I really did like him was in his scenes with Dawn.
 
I'm gonna pipe in with an unpopular opinion and say that for me, Xander was one of the most irritating characters in the Buffyverse. Ever since his complete inability/unwillingness to distinguish between Angel and Angelus and that devious little move he made in the S2 finale, I've hated the twerp. The hate dissipated in later seasons, but it came back in S7 - I was actually cheering when Caleb gave him the eye-poke (which I'm pretty sure was not the emotional response they were going for). He did get plenty of funny lines which Nicholas Brendon delivered perfectly, but it wasn't enough to make me like the character. The only time I really did like him was in his scenes with Dawn.

Angel was the most depraved and quite possibly most dangerous villain in the entire run of Buffy, and stalked, tortured, and in one case murdered Xander's friends. Xander was a 17 year old nerd thrust into a world of super heroics and horror and death. I really don't blame him for hating Angel or distrusting him in season three. Especially since he matured into a much more reasonable and responsible person over the course of the series.
 
Angel was the most depraved and quite possibly most dangerous villain in the entire run of Buffy, and stalked, tortured, and in one case murdered Xander's friends. Xander was a 17 year old nerd thrust into a world of super heroics and horror and death. I really don't blame him for hating Angel or distrusting him in season three. Especially since he matured into a much more reasonable and responsible person over the course of the series.
Yet everyone else who was the same age as him was able to make the distinction just fine. Xander hated Angel LONG before he had any reason to, and it had nothing to do with Angel and everything to do with his own feelings for Buffy - then he self-righteously took the Angelus debacle as "proof" that he was right "about Angel" all along, even though he hadn't actually foreseen any of that at all. His hatred was always driven first and foremost by the petty jealousy. And even after he matured and became "more reasonable," and after Angel had fought so hard for them, he still refused to acknowledge the distinction between Angel and Angelus. I always thought, "I really hope you get your soul taken away Xander, so we can see the horrible crimes the demon who takes YOUR body commits and put this shoe on the other foot."
 
You wanna know one thing that always pissed my off about Buffy (the series, not the character)? Once The Harvest was over, Jesse was never mentioned again. I mean, this guy was Xander's best friend for who knows how long... Xander and Willow dont even refer to him again after he is killed. I mean, if Xander has any reason to hate vamps, it should be due to the fact that his best friend was killed and turned into one of them and that Xander was forced to kill him (albiet accidentally). I thought it was kind of crappy to essentially have the characters go "Aw who cares about Jesse, BUFFY'S HERE!!!"
 
Xander was the most logical on the show. There was very little destinction between Angel, & Angelus. Xander was aware that Angel was always just one witches spell away from trying to torture & kill everyone he cared about. I know everyone loves Angel, but was always a powder keg.

Remember in the 1st season of Angel when he started acting like Angelus even though he didn't lost his soul. His mond just believed he had lost it. Angelus was Angels true nature. He was always a wolf in sheeps clothing. Xander knew this.
 
Yet everyone else who was the same age as him was able to make the distinction just fine. Xander hated Angel LONG before he had any reason to, and it had nothing to do with Angel and everything to do with his own feelings for Buffy - then he self-righteously took the Angelus debacle as "proof" that he was right "about Angel" all along, even though he hadn't actually foreseen any of that at all. His hatred was always driven first and foremost by the petty jealousy. And even after he matured and became "more reasonable," and after Angel had fought so hard for them, he still refused to acknowledge the distinction between Angel and Angelus. I always thought, "I really hope you get your soul taken away Xander, so we can see the horrible crimes the demon who takes YOUR body commits and put this shoe on the other foot."

Yeah, so he was jealous of Angel and never liked him. It didn't mean he was wrong about Angel when he went bad. I mean, what distinction was there to be made? Angel turned evil and started cutting a bloody swath across Sunnydale. Pretty much everyone was in the "Angel needs to die" camp at that point. Was Xander especially vocal about it? Yes. Was it for petty and or slightly immature reasons? Yes. But he wasn't wrong.

Also, like, I don't understand when you say that he refused to acknowledge the distinction after he matured. Xander only ever had contact with Angel during the first three seasons of the show, and he was only distrustful of Angel at the beginning of season three, because the last time he saw him he was a homicidal maniac trying to destroy the world. An attitude which was shared by everyone who wasn't Buffy, if you'll recall Giles' reaction to him. By the end of season three, Xander went back to simply not liking the guy, and in season four when Angel guest starred in the Thanksgiving episode Xander showed himself to be fairly ambivalent towards him.

Also, you keep bringing up the distinction between Angel and Angelus. First off, in season two, no one knew Angel that well or how his deal worked, so it makes sense that they'd be kind of judgmental. And as for the distinction itself... both series went well out of their way to show that Angelus wasn't another person or something that happened to Angel. While he wasn't in control of himself when he lacked a soul, the darkness and depravity that is Angelus has shown time and time again to be something that comes from Angel, not anywhere else, and that he is completely responsible for. I quote Darla: "Who we were informs what we become."
 
If it hadn't been for scheduling at the time of Conversations with Dead People. Willow wouldn't have appeared in that episode and it would have been Xander being visited by The First as Jesse. It was Whedon's original idea.
 
Anya was a bit annoying. After re-watching some of the series here lately I just dont understand why they felt it was necessary to make her a regular. I do say a bit though cuz I did like her and it was really sad seeing her basically get split down the middle in the series finale
 
If it hadn't been for scheduling at the time of Conversations with Dead People. Willow wouldn't have appeared in that episode and it would have been Xander being visited by The First as Jesse. It was Whedon's original idea.

Well at least thats something, but considering the complete avoidance they showed the character for the six seasons before that, I'd half expect that he would appear to Xander, Xander turns around and just goes "Oh..... who are you again?"
 
The idea was The First getting to Xander and setting up foreshadowing to him losing his eye and how he sees everything and is the heart of the group, but Xander never once really stops to think about others and the way he treats them truly (His treatments of the 3 most important women in his life, Anya, Willow, and Buffy being the main focus here.).

I'm sure there was a line in there about The First as Jesse saying how he had forgotten him.
 
The idea was The First getting to Xander and setting up foreshadowing to him losing his eye and how he sees everything and is the heart of the group, but Xander never once really stops to think about others and the way he treats them truly (His treatments of the 3 most important women in his life, Anya, Willow, and Buffy being the main focus here.).

I'm sure there was a line in there about The First as Jesse saying how he had forgotten him.

That probably would've been better than the Willow/blond girl scenes... I mean, really, either give us Tara or dont. Dont have this chick "speaking to Willow for her".
 
oh I hated Tara. I thought she lasted alot longer than I would have likde
 
oh I hated Tara. I thought she lasted alot longer than I would have likde
Welcome to Population 1. I've NEVER heard any Buffy fan prefer KENNEDY to Tara. Literally NO ONE.

Also Sawyer. It was suppose to be Tara in that scene, but Amber Benson felt it was unfair to Willow to see Tara morphed into a twisted version of herself.
 
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Welcome to Population 1. I've NEVER heard any Buffy fan prefer KENNEDY to Tara. Literally NO ONE.

Also Sawyer. It was suppose to be Tara in that scene, but Amber Benson felt it was unfair to Willow to see Tara morphed into a twisted version of herself.

I remember reading that. In that case they should've scrapped the whole scene and just paid Eric Balfour whatever the **** he wanted and did the Xander/Jesse scene.

And yeah... Tara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kennedy
 
Honestly, I thought the Willow/Cassie scene was equally effective as it would have been were it Tara. I mean, The First wasn't just trying to make Willow feel bad, it was actually trying to accomplish something: Get Willow to kill herself so she won't be in the final fight. Willow would have thought something was up immediately if Tara were telling her to kill herself, whereas it would have been slightly less subject if it were reluctantly suggested by someone she didn't know. Also, the whole not being able to see Tara thing and the temptation of being with her in death added to it. From an in story perspective, it actually makes more sense.
 
Also, you keep bringing up the distinction between Angel and Angelus. First off, in season two, no one knew Angel that well or how his deal worked, so it makes sense that they'd be kind of judgmental. And as for the distinction itself... both series went well out of their way to show that Angelus wasn't another person or something that happened to Angel. While he wasn't in control of himself when he lacked a soul, the darkness and depravity that is Angelus has shown time and time again to be something that comes from Angel, not anywhere else, and that he is completely responsible for. I quote Darla: "Who we were informs what we become."

I was actually quite sure that Angel's self titled series made it quite clear that Angelus WAS another personality. Angel was often making the distinction of "that wasn't me, it was HIM."
 
Yeah, so he was jealous of Angel and never liked him. It didn't mean he was wrong about Angel when he went bad. I mean, what distinction was there to be made? Angel turned evil and started cutting a bloody swath across Sunnydale. Pretty much everyone was in the "Angel needs to die" camp at that point. Was Xander especially vocal about it? Yes. Was it for petty and or slightly immature reasons? Yes. But he wasn't wrong.

Also, like, I don't understand when you say that he refused to acknowledge the distinction after he matured. Xander only ever had contact with Angel during the first three seasons of the show, and he was only distrustful of Angel at the beginning of season three, because the last time he saw him he was a homicidal maniac trying to destroy the world. An attitude which was shared by everyone who wasn't Buffy, if you'll recall Giles' reaction to him. By the end of season three, Xander went back to simply not liking the guy, and in season four when Angel guest starred in the Thanksgiving episode Xander showed himself to be fairly ambivalent towards him.

Also, you keep bringing up the distinction between Angel and Angelus. First off, in season two, no one knew Angel that well or how his deal worked, so it makes sense that they'd be kind of judgmental. And as for the distinction itself... both series went well out of their way to show that Angelus wasn't another person or something that happened to Angel. While he wasn't in control of himself when he lacked a soul, the darkness and depravity that is Angelus has shown time and time again to be something that comes from Angel, not anywhere else, and that he is completely responsible for. I quote Darla: "Who we were informs what we become."
They can say it all they want, but the fact is, we SAW several times over that Angel and Angelus were two completely different people. Drusilla in all her crazy could literally see the difference. And yes, Angelus and all the other vampires were expressions of the darkness inside of ALL of us, so yes, there was a dark side to Angel. Just like anyone else, though. And we saw in "Doppelgangland" what Xander would have been like if he'd had his soul taken and replaced with a demon - not much better.

I guess my point is, Angel faced more sacrifice and torment than Xander could even dream of, and he was still spending eternity fighting as a Champion of Good to pay for the sins that the demon who took his body committed. Yet Xander, even in the later seasons, never acknowledged this at all, and in random "funny" comments, seemed to confirm that he still just thought of Angel as the monster Buffy had a soft spot for, who he was always right about.

And you could say he was right about Angelus (not hard, since anyone and everyone could see he was a monster), he was ALWAYS WRONG about Angel. Angel had a soul. One of the points of the series is that a soul is really the key to what makes a human being. And Angel the human being was a significant force for good, which Xander never seemed to want to acknowledge.

But it's not just the Angel situation that made me dislike Xander - that was just a prime example of how quick he is to jump on his high horse and get self-righteous, specifically toward Buffy. Remember when she ran away? Again, she went through things he couldn't even imagine, so of course she was in a funk - but instead of being an understanding friend and trying to find out what the root of it all was, he got all superior and condescending on her. And before you say, "that's what she needed," I say, sure, she needed some tough love, but he didn't need to be a petulant a** about it. At least he could TRY to show concern for what was wrong with her. His troubles were minuscule compared to hers. It's the same reason I always disliked Ron in Harry Potter for all of his whiny moments of resentment toward Harry, as if Harry had asked for any of this. Willow also confronted Buffy about her wrongheaded actions, yet she always handled these things with the delicacy and concern that they should be handled with. Let's not forget, Buffy was ALSO just a teenage girl, who found herself thrown into far more extreme circumstances than any teen should have to deal with.

But I need to make one thing clear - I consider none of my Xander-annoyance a weakness of the show. This was a deliberate and consistent character trait/flaw of Xander, and the show did more than enough to justify why he would be that way. It's just that this show had such well-developed characters that it's easy to imagine them as real people, and as a person, I don't like Xander. I find him annoying. But as a character, I find him well-rounded and consistently-written and acted, which is why I can understand how many people can also love him. There's just a certain type of personality that rubs me the wrong way in real life, and Xander (along with Ron from HP and Ross from "Friends") is that type of person.

Lol, sorry for the novel.
 
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Of all the characters on Buffy, I always thought that Xander got the short end of the stick; especially when it came to relationships.

Seems like all the serious romantic relationships he's had (granted it was only two) always ended because of him. And even when the relationships were over he still kept hanging on to the women, like even though they wanted nothing to do with him, he just kept going to them.
 
I was actually quite sure that Angel's self titled series made it quite clear that Angelus WAS another personality. Angel was often making the distinction of "that wasn't me, it was HIM."

The only ever talked about Angelus like that during the "Angel is evil again" story in season 4. Everything up until that point made it quite clear that everything that made Angelus the worst is completely there and present within Angel and has been since before he was turned. And even the end of that arc had a very strong "they're really two halves of the same whole" kind of feel.

Stuff flickchick said

I'm going to skip the "Angel and Angelus are the same person" and "All vampires are equally bad" arguments because, well, they detract from the main point.

On to Xander.

You are being way too harsh. I will explain why.

On the subject of Angel: You are speaking from the perspective of a viewer, not a character in the show. Xander obviously didn't like Angel. But with the exception of early season three, he never displayed an irrational belief that he was pure evil. He displayed a very rational version of that view in season two, and all instances that acknowledged his feelings about Angel half way through season three on were A) Dislike, which he is entitled to, or B) Apathy. Did he not trust Angel? Yes. Because Angel is a ticking time bomb. Angel doesn't even trust himself. Angel only trusts people he knows are willing to kill him if he ever goes off. Angel is incredibly dangerous, and one bad (or, of course, really really good) day could mean so long broody Batman guy, hello mass murdering Joker guy.

As for the yelling at Buffy thing... wuh? Did we watch the same episode? Willow was the first person to ***** out Buffy for her actions, and she was actually quite a bit more harsh than Xander was. In fact, everyone who wasn't Oz was yelling at Buffy. It was pretty equal.

Over all, I notice that the reasons you give for disliking the character are all things that other characters did too.
 
The final straw for me with Xander was way before his reaction to Buffy and Spike. It was when he left Anya at the altar despite he knew the future he saw was all faked.
 

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