Transformers The User Review Thread [SPOILERS IN ABUNDANCE!]

[pickleweed]

I assume that just like all the other characters...BB was supposed to be a new modern and most powerful model
thing is story telling wise, he had to infiltrate his way into sams life and the only way to do that was to be an old used car...after that was said and done...he could then make the switch back to his more up to date self

General Motors didin't exactly "pay" millions to have their cars in the movie, they donated all the cars...

The 2009 Camero isn't exactly on sale...it's a concept car

like i said, theres no reason for BB to go from old beat up model to old beat up, clean model...
no matter how much ppl hate GMC...

.

My analogy is actually quite wonderful..heres what's what

u say GMC cars in Transformers was blatant marketing due to the fact that we got glam shots of cars with gmc logos on the front...and that in turn helps sell a product that exists outside of the film(which pre exists the film)

I say how is that any different than glam shots of Superman and Batman?
I mean they have symbols
and if anything these "shots" are helping to sell a product that exists outside of the film...and pre exists the film to be specific...

I'm not saying that the film superman and batman are simple marketing by a long shot...i'm saying that if ur gonna Knock GMC for plugging their sh1t in this movie..than why are your knocking DC comics for plugging their goods(characters/batmobiles/comics) in the WB produced movies?
...because of the name on the ticket stub?
let's be honest here...



I'm glad ur admitting it's subjectivity on your part....
thing is Michael Bay shoots Martin Lawrence in the same way...and he looks great!
for better or worse, every shot in his films are glam shots...i for one love it



these are problematic designs...
http://eirtaku.com/upload/files/TMNT_1024x768_2.jpg
lest the colour coded bandanas their all the same thing

these are all different
http://www.michaelbay.com/blog/files/d58812e5a390e8b3a44162285e4ae054-74.html

and whats more is that theres no mass shifting so that means that the camero ends up being about 17feet tall...and the f22 about 30 and optimus about 35...the solstice about 15...
so yes theres a major height difference (note the house scene)

I wouldn't even mind if all the bad guys were the same grey colour eventhough their not...
but the black Helicopter guyhttp://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z310/kzupin/blackout5.jpg looks way different than the brownish construction bot...which looks different from the smaller police car...which all look different from the 40 foot megatron...
they look different




http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/5008/optimuspuzzlemi4.jpg
I see knee joints, shoulders, elbows, wrists...
torsos..

if it wasn't for these more functional designs that motion capture stuff u saw in the movie wouldn't work(doesn't take an animation major to tell u that)
note optimus running on the tops of buildings...or starscreams bridge jump...or bumblebees shadow boxing...

same proportion?
almost none of the characters were the same size...
their mass and height was based entirely on their car forms

in a cartoon u get soldiers that all look special ie GI Joe
in a realistic movie u get...Saving Private Ryan...ppl of the same species tend to u know...kinda look the same

Transformers finds a middle ground with it's designs

whether or not gmc "donated" the cars or not, there is still a marketing agreement between the movie studio and the car company. they are banking on this movie to boost sales. why would they bank on this movie if there werent a gratuitous link between there cars and the movie? they know going n what they're getting. and point blank, chevy is releasing that car. its not a "concept car" at all. it'll be in your dealership probably middle of next year. pretty good hype machine, just in time for the dvd....

there was just no point for bumblebee to change period.

again with the superman thing. they are selling the same thing here. you are selling a superman movie. if that links up with book sales, backpacks, tshirts and all other merchandised crap related to SUPERMAN thats one thing. but a superman movie with a fruit of the loom cape would be another. clothes have logos on them. it'd be realistic right? why not have a jumble of fruit on the back of supes cape? oh, because it's ******ed. you know what you're buying when you go to a SUPERMAN movie. you're buying him. i didnt buy a gmc catalogue.

if there were height differences then it i didnt see any (aside from jazz). then that becomes a directing problem. i didnt see any scale relationships to make me think otherwise. you say they are realistic designs, i say they are poor attempts. look at star scream and megatron, and that solidifies everything ive been saying. there is no guide to your eye. where am i looking? you tell me where you're eye goes. it took me some focus to tell what the hell i was looking at. and they are stills! multiply that when they move.

 

[shigsy2003]

Decepticons - Not G1 (for most of them)

Huh?

Blackout was Vortex who was a Combaticon which was G1!
Megatron is obviously G1...in name anyway.
Scorponok was introduced in The Rebirth...Season 4 of G1.
Bonecrusher is a G1 character from the Constructicons.
Barricade...isn't G1.
Starscream...obviously is G1.
Brawl...G1 tank from the Combaticons (although mistakenyl named Devastastor in the film...but that is still a G1 character).
Frenzy...G1 character name but very different in practice.

Going from names alone MOST of the characters are from G1. Personality? Well that would be left to judge with the sequel.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Huh?

Blackout was Vortex who was a Combaticon which was G1!

Actually, that's not true. They wanted him to be Soundwave and Vortex was just his "psuedo name" in the script. But he wasn't Vortex though so the point is moot.

Megatron is obviously G1...in name anyway.

Yes, obviously.

Scorponok was introduced in The Rebirth...Season 4 of G1.

That character was a Headmaster, huge and a baseformer. This character was based off "Scorponok" from Beast Wars.

Bonecrusher is a G1 character from the Constructicons.

Well he wasn't a constructicon, and didn't link up to form Devestator. Transformers recycles names all the time, it doesn't necessarily denote a connection to the original. Armada Cyclonus is in no way connected to G1 Cyclonus.
Armada Cyclonus was a bumbling sidekick

G1 Cyclonus was a proud and sleek warrior.

Or another example would be all these characters named Prowl

So if they made a movie with Prowl in it and he was a police car, or had his head crest, we'd know it was a G1 reference. But if we got a race car, an owl, or a paddy wagon, we'd know they were referencing another Prowl. Or if we got a boat we'd know it as a new character.

Barricade...isn't G1.

Oh, but there was a Decepticon named Barricade in G1. But you're right, it's not the same character. Not remotely.

Starscream...obviously is G1.
Brawl...G1 tank from the Combaticons (although mistakenyl named Devastastor in the film...but that is still a G1 character).

I'll grant you Brawl simply because of the obvious similarities in alt mode and robot mode. But it's still a stretch.

Frenzy...G1 character name but very different in practice.

Again, there is no such thing as a "G1 character name". Transformers owns the rights to characters and names, and recycles them as such. Optimus has relatively been the same throughout most incarnations, save BW/BM. Ironhide, Mirage, and Cliffjumper, however (among many many others) have been reused multiple times and have NO CONNECTION to the original. Arguably there are some characters in non G1 verses (like Megatron and Starscream) that are obvious nods to the originals. But Frenzy, Barricade and Scorponok are so far afield of the originals the connection of "INO" is not worth making.

 

[CFlash]

Yeah with the exception of Megatron and Starscream- and even then mainly because of their (very quick) interaction ("You disappoint me again...")- none of the Decepticons really screamed G1. None of my friends recognized them... and they even thought Frenzy was "Soundwave" because he transformed into a radio. I had to burst their bubble.

The Autobots on the other hand... pure G1 in my opinion (and my friends). t:

 

[ShadowBoxing]

The Autobots on the other hand... pure G1 in my opinion (and my friends).

Almost universially yes. Bumblebee was the liason to the humans. Prime was the stoic and charismatic leader. Ironhide was the overly brazen warrior. Jazz was the jive talking, unconventional, imaginative fighter. Ratchet was still the medic, and a little stand offish, much like he was in show (although nothing like he was in the comic). You could make an argument that Ironhide was some amaglamation between his most recent version and his original, but either way it takes mostly from the original.

 

[CFlash]

Almost universially yes. Bumblebee was the liason to the humans. Prime was the stoic and charismatic leader. Ironhide was the overly brazen warrior. Jazz was the jive talking, unconventional, imaginative fighter. Ratchet was still the medic, and a little stand offish, much like he was in show (although nothing like he was in the comic). You could make an argument that Ironhide was some amaglamation between his most recent version and his original, but either way it takes mostly from the original.

Hey SB, just a question (cuz you always bring Ratchet up): you ever stop to consider that Ratchet's personality change in the comic was due to him seeing all his friend's die(!) and thrusted into a position of authority all of a sudden? That would change most people right quick. Just curious.

The only thing missing from Ironhide in the movie was him complaining about his aching joints. t:

 

[Danger Mouse]

if there were height differences then it i didnt see any (aside from jazz). then that becomes a directing problem. i didnt see any scale relationships to make me think otherwise. you say they are realistic designs, i say they are poor attempts. look at star scream and megatron, and that solidifies everything ive been saying. there is no guide to your eye. where am i looking? you tell me where you're eye goes. it took me some focus to tell what the hell i was looking at. and they are stills! multiply that when they move.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this and agree with Marvin wholeheartedly. I had no problem whatsoever in identifying what I was looking at when I look at each of the Transformers. There were scale relationships, there were distinctive anatomical features and the designs were realistic.

But just in case I'm wrong, I think I'll go watch it again... for the fifth time... this weekend. You know, just to be sure.

 

[Spade]

I loved the movie, but by the end it sort of turned into scrap metal fighting scrap metal. The action was just a little too wild for its own good, and the designs just slightly hampered them- I'm sure they'd be blurry even with a solid design, but the fact that they were pretty segmented and "busy" to begin with probably didn't help.

The action was great. It's just I had no clue half the time what was happening in it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Hey SB, just a question (cuz you always bring Ratchet up): you ever stop to consider that Ratchet's personality change in the comic was due to him seeing all his friend's die(!) and thrusted into a position of authority all of a sudden? That would change most people right quick. Just curious.

Well they weren't dead. They were in a state of suspended animation, or simply deactivated. Were they dead, Ratchet wouldn't have been able to revive them. We see Ratchet brought to the brink of madness by actually death after issue 50, where most of the non-binary bonded Transformers were killed by Underbase Starscream (you see for a Transformer to die his spark must be extinguished, and there is almost no way to return them from that). However Ratchet knew full well he could revive the Autobots, if he could only get them away from the Decepticons. So I honestly don't think that changed him.

For one Ratchet's personality in the cartoon was of a gruff, sometimes nagging and complaining home physician. "Time for repairs I guess" he used to say in a drudging voice. In the comic he was much more up beat, and continued to be after his friends had "died". But he never saw them die, he wasn't present. What changed him, more than likely was the bloodtie made between him and Megatron...and the subsequent storyline that followed from that (leading up to their bonding). However he was always depicted as compassionate to a fault, and a somewhat upbeat warrior who secretly battled with some sort of depression...that never changed. He always had a solom air about him, even before his friends "died" he still was depicted as this lonely, depressed medic who had to stay behind while his friends risked their lives. Prowl was a close confidant of his as well, we know he had distinct compassion for him (as shown in his battle against the Mechanic). But, Bob Budinsky's tech spec never played out at all, in either series. He was suppose to be a partying jokester...that just never came to pass.

Ultimately I never liked how Bob Budinsky handled characters, and I never realized this until recently. But most of his stories lack any sort of comic relief. Making them terribly boring, often painful to read at times. It's not that the stories themselves are Bad. It's that they read like stereo instructions. And he hits and misses too. Skids was a great character, and after making you remotely interested, he dispenses with him. Part of this is red tape; Transformers had new toys to sell, and Skids wasn't one of them. Part of this is bad writing.

I also, after rereading them recently, really didn't think Bob understood Megatron OR Optimus Prime. Arguably linchpins of the book relegated to side status most of the time. He seemed awfully interested in the logical characters, like Prowl and Shockwave. I imagine this is because Bob was such a boring guy himself . They are the most wooden characters, but Bob can do something with them, where I think most writers just kinda flounder with characters like that.

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

The movie ruled.

Love all the fights, anything with the bots was fantastic.
Shia was awesome.

More Starscream and decepticon development in the sequel.

 

[CFlash]

Well they weren't dead. They were in a state of suspended animation, or simply deactivated. Were they dead, Ratchet wouldn't have been able to revive them. We see Ratchet brought to the brink of madness by actually death after issue 50, where most of the non-binary bonded Transformers were killed by Underbase Starscream (you see for a Transformer to die his spark must be extinguished, and there is almost no way to return them from that). However Ratchet knew full well he could revive the Autobots, if he could only get them away from the Decepticons. So I honestly don't think that changed him.

For one Ratchet's personality in the cartoon was of a gruff, sometimes nagging and complaining home physician. "Time for repairs I guess" he used to say in a drudging voice. In the comic he was much more up beat, and continued to be after his friends had "died". But he never saw them die, he wasn't present. What changed him, more than likely was the bloodtie made between him and Megatron...and the subsequent storyline that followed from that (leading up to their bonding). However he was always depicted as compassionate to a fault, and a somewhat upbeat warrior who secretly battled with some sort of depression...that never changed. He always had a solom air about him, even before his friends "died" he still was depicted as this lonely, depressed medic who had to stay behind while his friends risked their lives. Prowl was a close confidant of his as well, we know he had distinct compassion for him (as shown in his battle against the Mechanic). But, Bob Budinsky's tech spec never played out at all, in either series. He was suppose to be a partying jokester...that just never came to pass.

Your prolly right... but they weren't just in suspended animation. They were kinda blown to bits by Shockwave. Having your beloved decapitated leader's head strung up connected with wires and being used to create new machines has got to be a bit traumatic... t:

Hey I just realized how the movie sorta plays on this but in reverse (humans / Megatron). Interesting...

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Your prolly right... but they weren't just in suspended animation. They were kinda blown to bits by Shockwave. Having your beloved decapitated leader's head strung up connected with wires and being used to create new machines has got to be a bit traumatic... t:

They might have been "slightly damaged" (and they did rip Gears in half after they brought him back to the base). But Optimus was, as you could see, very much alive.

 

[CFlash]

Ultimately I never liked how Bob Budinsky handled characters, and I never realized this until recently. But most of his stories lack any sort of comic relief. Making them terribly boring, often painful to read at times. It's not that the stories themselves are Bad. It's that they read like stereo instructions. And he hits and misses too. Skids was a great character, and after making you remotely interested, he dispenses with him. Part of this is red tape; Transformers had new toys to sell, and Skids wasn't one of them. Part of this is bad writing.

I don't disagree. At all. But, to me (as we've discussed repeatedly) the premises were the great thing... even if the actual follow-through sucked. For instance, I know lots of people think the (twilight-zone-ish) issue where megs is stuck as a gun and weilded by some loony human is horrible.... it's my favorite issue because of what can be done with that premise.

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

Did Prime called Megatron his brother at the end and take a bit of him?

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I don't disagree. At all. But, to me (as we've discussed repeatedly) the premises were the great thing... even if the actual follow-through sucked. For instance, I know lots of people think the (twilight-zone-ish) issue where megs is stuck as a gun and weilded by some loony human is horrible.... it's my favorite issue because of what can be done with that premise.

Actually it was issues like that I didn't mind because they were removed from the typical drudgery of his writing style. I mean the first issue we get a sound off practically every page from characters in mid battle, often describing weapons and powers and such. But then you'd get weird stories like "the Scraplets" and, one of my personal favorites "This town ain't big enough" where Skids gets rescued by a young woman. The whole story, start to finish, was great, different and new. The whole "him dreaming about Megatron with his girl" was really nice, and then her describing High Noon to him as he peeked in her window -- nice stuff. The rest just meh. I suppose if his typical issues weren't boring and mundane those issues might be considered bad.

However this whole the "premise is good, execution bad" is really hard for me to swallow. Good ideas are like bodies, everyone has 'em, but it takes a little extra effort to make them special. Transformers was a toy line that looked to make two toys in one - great idea. And in doing so they made quality robots that Transformed into quality vehicles - effort. Unlike Gobots which would settle for a mediocre product, either giving you and bad robot or a bad vehicle but never one that had both modes as good. Transformers has a ton of good moments, ideas, premises...whatever you want to call them -- but then again so does Sailor Moon, so does Pokemon, and so does My Little Pony. Pokemon for example could become an excellent dialogue on the cruelty of domesticating animals and taking species out of their habitat. But as you point out with Transformers, the show is poorly executed so that is never realized. Transformers is what it is, a show/comic about a toy that is two toys in one - great idea right. But poorly executed.

Conversely I don't find Beast Wars to be incredibly that great an idea. Robots that transform into organic mammals and such. Name one thing an animal can do a robot couldn't be made to do ten times better? It's a foolish form. Prime has guns, he has no reason to be an ape. But the execution was wonderful, the writing was stellar, as a result...the series is incredible.

Transformers in the early eighties, and arguably throughout G1, never made itself into anything. Simon Furman certainly was able to breath what little life he could into the series with what little they gave him (something like 26 issues). And he did some spectacular things...especially his finale. Transformers, both the show and comic, is like a pitch meeting, where a bunch of guys in suits through out ideas every week and see what sticks. On top of it, it has a lot of red tape, most of which stifled any of those ideas from going anywhere. For example, in any other show today something like "The Key to Vector Sigma" would encompass a whole season (as it did in Beast Machines), but in Transformers it gets a measely two episode. Great idea, yes. Execution - atrocious...or better put, insufficient.

Transformers wasn't bad on purpose, goodness knows. Any show with THAT much toy company oversight and red tape is going to have a huge uphill battle to climb creatively. I mean Beast Wars only got made because Hasbro backed off, as did Simon Furman's grand Transformers finale "All Fall Down" and "End of the Road". But Transformers is a concept in reverse. It's like you're writing a story and someone keeps handing you action figures and props saying "here, now work this into your story...okay now this here...and that".

 

[nogster]

Actually it was issues like that I didn't mind because they were removed from the typical drudgery of his writing style. I mean the first issue we get a sound off practically every page from characters in mid battle, often describing weapons and powers and such. But then you'd get weird stories like "the Scraplets" and, one of my personal favorites "This town ain't big enough" where Skids gets rescued by a young woman. The whole story, start to finish, was great, different and new. The whole "him dreaming about Megatron with his girl" was really nice, and then her describing High Noon to him as he peeked in her window -- nice stuff. The rest just meh. I suppose if his typical issues weren't boring and mundane those issues might be considered bad.

man u just took me back!!! i had that issue....with ravage hunting him down etc...skids was one of my faves....i remember every week a new TF episode would come on, i would be wating for skids,,,unfortunatley, we only got a glimpse of him in one episode, when cosmos had crashed in the jungle and bought a robotic plant invasion with him, [if i remember correctly].
aah the memories.....

 

[CFlash]

Actually it was issues like that I didn't mind because they were removed from the typical drudgery of his writing style. I mean the first issue we get a sound off practically every page from characters in mid battle, often describing weapons and powers and such. But then you'd get weird stories like "the Scraplets" and, one of my personal favorites "This town ain't big enough" where Skids gets rescued by a young woman. The whole story, start to finish, was great, different and new. The whole "him dreaming about Megatron with his girl" was really nice, and then her describing High Noon to him as he peeked in her window -- nice stuff. The rest just meh. I suppose if his typical issues weren't boring and mundane those issues might be considered bad.

However this whole the "premise is good, execution bad" is really hard for me to swallow. Good ideas are like bodies, everyone has 'em, but it takes a little extra effort to make them special. Transformers was a toy line that looked to make two toys in one - great idea. And in doing so they made quality robots that Transformed into quality vehicles - effort. Unlike Gobots which would settle for a mediocre product, either giving you and bad robot or a bad vehicle but never one that had both modes as good. Transformers has a ton of good moments, ideas, premises...whatever you want to call them -- but then again so does Sailor Moon, so does Pokemon, and so does My Little Pony. Pokemon for example could become an excellent dialogue on the cruelty of domesticating animals and taking species out of their habitat. But as you point out with Transformers, the show is poorly executed so that is never realized. Transformers is what it is, a show/comic about a toy that is two toys in one - great idea right. But poorly executed.

Conversely I don't find Beast Wars to be incredibly that great an idea. Robots that transform into organic mammals and such. Name one thing an animal can do a robot couldn't be made to do ten times better? It's a foolish form. Prime has guns, he has no reason to be an ape. But the execution was wonderful, the writing was stellar, as a result...the series is incredible.

Transformers in the early eighties, and arguably throughout G1, never made itself into anything. Simon Furman certainly was able to breath what little life he could into the series with what little they gave him (something like 26 issues). And he did some spectacular things...especially his finale. Transformers, both the show and comic, is like a pitch meeting, where a bunch of guys in suits through out ideas every week and see what sticks. On top of it, it has a lot of red tape, most of which stifled any of those ideas from going anywhere. For example, in any other show today something like "The Key to Vector Sigma" would encompass a whole season (as it did in Beast Machines), but in Transformers it gets a measely two episode. Great idea, yes. Execution - atrocious...or better put, insufficient.

Transformers wasn't bad on purpose, goodness knows. Any show with THAT much toy company oversight and red tape is going to have a huge uphill battle to climb creatively. I mean Beast Wars only got made because Hasbro backed off, as did Simon Furman's grand Transformers finale "All Fall Down" and "End of the Road". But Transformers is a concept in reverse. It's like you're writing a story and someone keeps handing you action figures and props saying "here, now work this into your story...okay now this here...and that".

And those premises' greatness AND insufficiency probably sparked a lot kids to imagine.... and expand on them. For instance, I never once cared to "play out" my own Robotech story.... because the story was all-encompassing and pretty much already written for me.... there was nothing I could really do with it (as a kid). Transformers (and G.I. Joe) were sorta different.

On the other hand, there was only so many times I could have Skeletor beat the door down to Castle Greyskull.

 

[MeenieWK]

Im goin to an advance screening on sunday

HELL YEAH.. cant wait!

 

[ShadowBoxing]

And those premises' greatness AND insufficiency probably sparked a lot kids to imagine.... and expand on them.

The premise itself (I mean by that -- of the series itself, not of the toys) wasn't that great. Or better put, wasn't anything we had not been through before. Aliens pillaging our resources, attacking us, stealing our tech, and fighting their own personal war on our soil. Been there, done that. Kids, humans in general, don't need a lot to get the imagination going. Hell in old age all it's takes is a boob, or less, to spark some sexual fantasy...that's takes some imagination.

So no, I don't think the insufficiency was an assett at all, I mean it killed the show...literally.

For instance, I never once cared to "play out" my own Robotech story.... because the story was all-encompassing and pretty much already written for me

That certainly wasn't true for me, pretending my Transformer jets were veritech from time to time. The story was not "all encompassing". No story is. No story starts at the beginning of time and ends at the end of time, not that I know of. There is always "more to tell". Robotech, The Macross Saga, ended with the couple we'd been waiting 20 episodes to see finally get together...and then bam, they vow to make the SDF-3 and are never heard from again. So there is story to tell, big big stories left to tell...and they are starting to do that with The Shadow Chronicles. But aside from them, kids have a knack, at the very least of writing themselves into stories. Doesn't every boy dream of being Green Lantern, or Superman, or Flash, or a Transformer no matter how played out those stories are?

.... there was nothing I could really do with it (as a kid). Transformers (and G.I. Joe) were sorta different.

Robotech was an adult show, it's hard for children to watch melodrama and get into it. I grew up reading X-Men though, so that smoothed the transition (as all comics are soap operas). Transformers et all appeal on a very primal and basic level, one Michael Bay eloquently summed up on his T-Shirts "Giant F***ing Robots". Something that Transforms into a car and fights other vehicles is just kinda cool to begin with, and it's a gimmick that most toylines lack. Two toys in one...I'm on board.

On the other hand, there was only so many times I could have Skeletor beat the door down to Castle Greyskull.

Transformers was the same way though. Megatron wants to take over the world again today , needs energon for his whosawhatsit. Skeletor wanted Castle Greyskull for the same reason, and probably just had as many cockamamy schemes to get it (although I bet he never once considered stealing a Ninja Robot for it).

 

[CFlash]

The premise itself (I mean by that -- of the series itself, not of the toys) wasn't that great. Or better put, wasn't anything we had not been through before. Aliens pillaging our resources, attacking us, stealing our tech, and fighting their own personal war on our soil. Been there, done that. Kids, humans in general, don't need a lot to get the imagination going. Hell in old age all it's takes is a boob, or less, to spark some sexual fantasy...that's takes some imagination.

So no, I don't think the insufficiency was an assett at all, I mean it killed the show...literally.

No. The 86 movie and Hasbro's need to introduce new toys killed the show... as did the magical (meaningless) McGuffin plots it strayed into that kids were tired of seeing in every other toon at the time. And I suspect that if all that you say were true, Transformers wouldn't have stayed in the conciousness of the majority of people our age (I'm assuming we're close to the same age) the way it has whether they collected the toys (like you) or didn't (like me). Gobots sure didn't. MASK sure didn't. He-man sure didn't. Shogun Warriors sure didn't (yah I'm a little older... but I had to throw in other robots in there for completeness).

Anyway, this is OT... and old. Let's kill it.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

No. The 86 movie and Hasbro's need to introduce new toys killed the show... as did the magical (meaningless) McGuffin plots it strayed into that kids were tired of seeing in every other toon at the time.

Oh yes...the Matrix...so unpopular and Macguffin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobot_Matrix_of_Leadership#Matrix_toys:dry:

Matrix toys
Leo Prime (1998): Although his Matrix was not detachable, Leo Prime was the first Transformer toy to come with a Matrix. The Matrix was part of the chest sculpt, located inside a left chest panel.

Big Convoy (1999): The first Transformer to come with a Matrix that was detachable. Its handle design allowed Big Convoy to hold the Matrix, although it meant altering the handle from its more orthodox shape.

Transformers: Robots in Disguise Optimus Prime (2000): Like Lio Convoy, the RiD incarnation of Optimus Prime's (Super Fire Convoy in Japan) Matrix was a permanent fixture inside a chest panel. Looking little like the standard Matrix design, this feature was treated simply as a power cable port in the animated series.
Convoy (also known as Optimus Prime) (2001 Millennium New Years Special Reissue): Made of solid die-cast metal, this Matrix was designed to fit inside the chest cavity of the original Optimus Prime/Convoy toy. It also came with a chain so that collectors could wear the Matrix as a neckpiece. Although this Matrix was sculpted to look just like the original Matrix, the design of Optimus Prime's fists meant that he was unable to hold it.

Transformers: Armada Optimus Prime (2002): The Leader-class Optimus Prime figure from this toyline featured a non-removable Matrix sculpted inside his chest. Notably, the smaller, Supercon size-class version of the figure did not.

Masterpiece Matrix.20th Anniversary Optimus Prime/Masterpiece Convoy (2003/4): The Matrix included with this figure is both removable, and can be held by Optimus Prime, due to his individually articulated fingers. This is the first Matrix that can also actually open, and can be made to glow in its traditional blue color via an LED inside Optimus Prime's chest cavity. The Matrix was also included in the Japanese-only Masterpiece Ultra Magnus redeco of the toy. Like the Matrix of Cybertron Prime, this too can fit in the chest of the original Optimus Prime.
Transformers: Cybertron Optimus Prime (2005): The Transformers: Cybertron incarnation of the character (known as Galaxy Convoy in Japan) comes with a Matrix which can be stored inside the chest and removed, and can be held by the figure, somewhat awkwardly (His fingers are one solid section, but can move). Interestingly, the Matrix toy itself is perfectly sized to fit inside the cab of the original Optimus Prime toy and many fans have taken to storring it there. Prime's Planet Key also has a Matrix theme to its sculpt, although the gold accents are only available in the Japanese version of this toy.

T.H.S.-01 Galaxy Convoy (2005): A beautifully sculpted Japanese exclusive miniature of Galaxy Force Galaxy Convoy (Cybertron Optimus Prime). The figure features an opening chest, as with the larger counterpart. The tiny Matrix which is revealed can be removed, although an electrical screwdriver or fine tweezers may be necessary! Unlike the Generation 1 version, this matrix has a yellow interior.

Revoltech Convoy (Optimus Prime) holding high the Matrix.T.H.S.-02 Convoy (2006): Essentially a small 4 inch tall version of Masterpiece Convoy, he too came with a removable Matrix, but it is not able to be opened. As with the T.H.S. line, he comes with a variety of hands for different functions. Two hands have slats in them to slip the handles of the Matrix into and it will allow him to hold it. It has weight and is made of die-caste metal.

Revoltech Convoy: Able to be held awkwardly but artfully in convoy's left hand, this Matrix is not able to be put into its chest. Also, adhering to the comic-look roots, the Matrix has a small pale dot in the blue center giving it the feel of a glow and gloss.

Galvatron (2005 reissues): The Japanese-exclusive reissue of the Galvatron toy, recolored to match his cartoon appearance, includes a die-cast Matrix accessory. (The Matrix accessory used is the same mold as the one used in "New Year's Special" Convoy, colored gold.) Additionally, another version of the toy (in its original colours) exclusive to the eHobby website features the same accessory, colored green in reference to the comic book incarnation of the Matrix.

Matrix of Leadership Replica (2006): Sculpted by Robert Lee. This item was limited to 1,000 pieces and distributed by Diamond Select Toys in conjunction with Art Asylum. It came with a golden display stand with the Autobot symbol on the front and a replica of the Key to Vector Sigma. Using 3 AA batteries and the replica Key to Vector Sigma accessory (placed on the backside of the display stand), with the Matrix placed on it, it can change colors from blue to purple, to green, to red, and back again.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The Matrix has been the one thing to repeatedly stick in the franchise, in nearly every incarnation. If it was "tired" and the death of the show you'd never hear from it again. But Unicron and the Matrix are among the shows most repeatable elements.

I'll concede Optimus' death didn't help the show...but that wasn't really the problem. The problem was the show was unsuccessful beforehand, with it's string of atrocious and confusing episodes in season two. The second season, not the third season, killed the show. The Third season is arguably more popular than the first two...and actually the series three toyline is the toyline's most successful year.

And furthermore the insufficiency did kill the show. That's why they sold that show out to Korean Animators, so they could churn out more toys faster, once a week...rather than slowly as the first season did. It also killed any continuity or character development the show had (until the third season)

BTW, among fans, the third season is easily the most popular. If you doubt that...check how Optimus figures now include the Matrix.

And I suspect that if all that you say were true, Transformers wouldn't have stayed in the conciousness of the majority of people our age (I'm assuming we're close to the same age) the way it has whether they collected the toys (like you) or didn't (like me).

It didn't really. When Beast Wars came out the franchise was DOA, and Hasbro considered it extinct. Hence their willingness to let DiTillo and Forward take full creative control (they didn't see the show lasting). Beast Wars and subsequent incarnation revamped the franchise. Transformers, honestly, if it were popular it would be in syndication, or would've been. But it hasn't. Superfriends, Scooby Doo, Bugs Bunny, X-Men, Spider-Man still occupy spots on Cable. Not Transformers. Transformers is only "in the public consciousness" because it's an active franchise, not because the show was good or well recieved. They would've have made this movie if there had never been a UT or Beast Wars.

Gobots sure didn't. MASK sure didn't.

Inferior products, with no money behind them.

He-man sure didn't.

He-Man had a movie, is getting a new one. Had a new show not too long ago. It stayed.

Shogun Warriors sure didn't (yah I'm a little older... but I had to throw in other robots in there for completeness).

Shogun Warriors was decidely more aloof than Transformers. It was a poorly distributed line, I wouldn't expect it to be.

 

[Anti-Moderator]

It didn't really. When Beast Wars came out the franchise was DOA, and Hasbro considered it extinct. Hence their willingness to let DiTillo and Forward take full creative control (they didn't see the show lasting). Beast Wars and subsequent incarnation revamped the franchise. Transformers, honestly, if it were popular it would be in syndication, or would've been. But it hasn't. Superfriends, Scooby Doo, Bugs Bunny, X-Men, Spider-Man still occupy spots on Cable. Not Transformers. Transformers is only "in the public consciousness" because it's an active franchise, not because the show was good or well recieved. They would've have made this movie if there had never been a UT or Beast Wars.

I remember watching G1 Transformers on the Sci-Fi Channel in the 90's before school....they played them in order and when they played them out they would start all over again. They did this for at least 2 yrs in Sci-Fi Channel's infancy.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I remember watching G1 Transformers on the Sci-Fi Channel in the 90's before school....they played them in order and when they played them out they would start all over again. They did this for at least 2 yrs in Sci-Fi Channel's infancy.

That was because G1 was running at the time on NBC or something. It was to promote the new Transformer line, but they didn't bother with new episodes, just reaired the old ones. It hasn't been on the Scifi channel in a long long time.

 

[nogster]

well i personally like season 2 the most out of G1. because it introduced heaps more characters whose toys i had...there were some great episodes, that explored the origins of the transformers etc.....but mainly because i was soo into them, that seeing my toys in the cartoon that i hadnt seen in season 1 was very satisfying....i still the remember the excitment i got when the "red alert" focused story aired..that was the 1st time i had seen the newer characters come to life without the use of my imagination.
season 1 is the classic...
season 2 expanded on the 1st and got a bit more in depth.
season 3 had some great ideas and episodes but also some crappy ones...and no optimus till the very end...rodimus prime just didtn cut it...nor did galvatron IMO.

 

[Lunar_Wolf]

well i personally like season 2 the most out of G1. because it introduced heaps more characters whose toys i had...there were some great episodes, that explored the origins of the transformers etc.....but mainly because i was soo into them, that seeing my toys in the cartoon that i hadnt seen in season 1 was very satisfying....i still the remember the excitment i got when the "red alert" focused story aired..that was the 1st time i had seen the newer characters come to life without the use of my imagination.
season 1 is the classic...
season 2 expanded on the 1st and got a bit more in depth.
season 3 had some great ideas and episodes but also some crappy ones...and no optimus till the very end...rodimus prime just didtn cut it...nor did galvatron IMO.

I thought season 3 was ok. It began to get **** when the head masters thing started. I didn't like the heads coming off Transformers.

Rodimus was no leader.

I loved Galvatron.

One episode had Rodimus, Acree and Ultra Magnus had their minds switched into human bodies. I thought this would be an amazing episode but it sucked so so so so much and it could have made it so much better.