Superman Returns There's trouble in River City friends with SR's poor BO and so-so DVD sales

[dude stannis]

As for FF - they wisely chose to go in a different direction with 2. I see no indication Singer will do that - especially when he talks of more s/l for the son of Superman in a potential sequel. That is absolutely continuing with a failed, IMO, concept.

What part of a more action packed sequel with an alien villain do you fail to understand?

Forget POTC, it has Jonhny and oh yeah that other guy whose name I forget right now but who maybe is bigger than Johnny - and look at CR. Go to BOM - that is my source for those numbers.

Easy for you to say, go to BOM a look at the part where it says second highest grossing film of all time. Numbers don't lie and this time they bite you in the ass.

 

[lexlives]

What part of a more action packed sequel with an alien villain do you fail to understand?



Easy for you to say, go to BOM a look at the part where it says second highest grossing film of all time. Numbers don't lie and this time they bite you in the ass.

I assume by second highest grossing film of all time you are talking POTC. So what is the problem here - I agree POTC was overall a better film in terms of pure fun and enjoyment - plus it has better FX. I think we are on the same side here.

 

[FlawlessVictory]

What part of a more action packed sequel with an alien villain do you fail to understand?

I just hope it's not Zod

 

[El Payaso]

I agree POTC was overall a better film in terms of pure fun and enjoyment

For having such a poor taste you... uh... write a lot.

 

[dude stannis]

I assume by second highest grossing film of all time you are talking POTC. So what is the problem here - I agree POTC was overall a better film in terms of pure fun and enjoyment - plus it has better FX. I think we are on the same side here.

I never said POTC 2 was better than SR, it as alright, but I found more enjoyment watching SR, that's just me. You said not to blame POTC 2 for SR underperforming and having a fairly large drop off, but the fact that it's the second biggest money maker of all time means that every summer 06 release suffered including SR.

 

[ultimatefan]

First off ultimatefan, I enjoy that we can disagree and stil have an honest, open discusion. No flaming, no name-calling. You obviously love Superman and the mythos and I do too. That is what it is all about and I apprecite your thoughtful replies.

I agree it would be easier for WB to keep Singer and Routh if, if, if they did a film that is closer to, not what just fans want, but what audiences want. Fans are a relatively small percentage of the BO - its the general audiences that did not embrace SR. In weekend 8 after release SR did just 800,000 thousand or so - Happy Feet in weekend 8 did around 4 million. Casino Royale also is holding up far better many weeks out. So the argument that animated films by default do better is bogus IMO. Forget POTC, it has Jonhny and oh yeah that other guy whose name I forget right now but who maybe is bigger than Johnny - and look at CR. Go to BOM - that is my source for those numbers.

As for FF - they wisely chose to go in a different direction with 2. I see no indication Singer will do that - especially when he talks of more s/l for the son of Superman in a potential sequel. That is absolutely continuing with a failed, IMO, concept.

By a reboot I in no way want another origin story. Reboot does not equal origin story. That is where I think you are missing the mark. WB needs to do a young Superman story in any reboot - to allow for potential sequels - but by young I mean with Clark in his early years in Metropilis

Youngish but sort of established in the big City.

WB also needs to acknowledge what they temselves have done in the cartoons, Lois and Clark, Smallville - and that is Luthor as a sophisticated, multi-dimensionals character. Far, far more interesting and appealing than Hackman's Luthor or Spacey's copy of Hackman's Luthor. We have all - or pretty much all - moved on. The camp and one-dimensional portrayal of Lex no longer works.

Byrne or not, I want a Superman film where all the characters have depth and are interesting. This one-dimesional stuff no longer cuts it.

I enjoy that too, cuz some people can´t seem to disagree without feeling the need to go nasty or throwing all disagreeing people into some condescending label. I´m glad we aren´t getting into it.

There is indication that Singer is doing something closer to what the fans want. From what early reports say,Superman will fight in the sequel and it´s likely to have a comics villain we haven´t seen before, most likely Brainiac. That shuts the notion that he was going to bring back Zod and refer to Superman II a lot. As for the kid, like I said, it´s up to what they do. Unlike some people, I can see Superman having a kid having interesting potential. No superhero is more quoted as being a model than Superman, so what happens when he´s really someone´s direct role model?

Ultimately, it´s up to the studio to judge if the numbers are satisfying or not. As far as we have been informed, they´re satisfied enough to give Singer another go. Like I said, if they change their minds, the most likely scenario is we won´t be getting another Superman movie for a very long time.

It´s very complicated to bring the franchise back to square one without getting back to the origin. SR clearly refers to the Donner origin, to reboot the franchise without being in continuity with either SR or the first two Superman movies at this point would be considered too confusing for the audience.

I sort of agree that Spacey shouldn´t have been so Hackman-like in the movie, but I doubt Luthor will be the villain on the sequel, so that´s out of the way.

Well, I don´t agree with you that the characters - not all, anyway - are one-dimensional in SR.

 

[lexlives]

I enjoy that too, cuz some people can´t seem to disagree without feeling the need to go nasty or throwing all disagreeing people into some condescending label. I´m glad we aren´t getting into it.

There is indication that Singer is doing something closer to what the fans want. From what early reports say,Superman will fight in the sequel and it´s likely to have a comics villain we haven´t seen before, most likely Brainiac. That shuts the notion that he was going to bring back Zod and refer to Superman II a lot. As for the kid, like I said, it´s up to what they do. Unlike some people, I can see Superman having a kid having interesting potential. No superhero is more quoted as being a model than Superman, so what happens when he´s really someone´s direct role model?

Ultimately, it´s up to the studio to judge if the numbers are satisfying or not. As far as we have been informed, they´re satisfied enough to give Singer another go. Like I said, if they change their minds, the most likely scenario is we won´t be getting another Superman movie for a very long time.

It´s very complicated to bring the franchise back to square one without getting back to the origin. SR clearly refers to the Donner origin, to reboot the franchise without being in continuity with either SR or the first two Superman movies at this point would be considered too confusing for the audience.

I sort of agree that Spacey shouldn´t have been so Hackman-like in the movie, but I doubt Luthor will be the villain on the sequel, so that´s out of the way.

Well, I don´t agree with you that the characters - not all, anyway - are one-dimensional in SR.

Even if Singer does a sequel and Lex has a smaller part it would still be a mistake to continue with him as campy. I'm afraid that is what Singer would do the argument being he started out that way in SR so he has to stay "in character".

There are just so many changes needed IMO and I don't get a sense, aside from more action, that we'll see any other changes. IMO more action alone won't do it.

Michael Rosenbaum's Lex is so much more intriguing.

Not just MR, John Shea did a great Lex on L&C but was only on for season 1. Shame they didn't continue with him.

What I really liked too about Shea's Luthor was his surrounding himself with competent and deadly serious associates.

It is up to the studio to judge as you say and I believe they are still in that process with SR. The early talk of a sequel may hav been in part to boost DVD sales - they would be foolish to indicate they were wavering on a sequel before the DVD release as that would hurt sales. Same thing happened with Hulk.

One thing - BB's sequel was confimred at ShoWest last March as the WB summer 2008 tentpole film. My bet is that we won't see such an early decision on an SR sequel and that WB will not mention a sequel during ShoWest this March.

I think part of their evaluation will be to see the numbers for FF 2 especially. If it cleans up at the BO on a smaller budget than SR, and factoring in how good GR and Spiderman do, I could see this as a negative for WB continuing. By that i mean if FF 2 has a jump like X 2 did, and given the excitement over SS I could see an even bigger jump, it will do about 215 million domestic. WB may look at these numbers and think, in terms of return on investment, maybe they should put 170 million or whatever into an untried franchise character - GL would have the most promise IMO - and they might just end up with another FF which all indications are, early as it is, will be huge next summer.

As I've said it will be interestig to see how it all plays out in the coming months.

 

[El Payaso]

It'll be specially interesting to see how none of what you say will happen.

 

[Maze]

The early talk of a sequel may hav been in part to boost DVD sales - they would be foolish to indicate they were wavering on a sequel before the DVD release as that would hurt sales. Same thing happened with Hulk.

Very different .

Ang Lee has never been in talk for a sequel ( as far as i know) and has never signed (unlike Singer) a contract.

Sorry that Sr is not to your taste ,but a sequel (more to your liking or not) will happen.

 

[Maze]

And we can add that Hulk was not as popular as Superman Returns seeing the reviews , and the box office.

yes the budget of Sr was superior but we are not talking about profit there , but popularity .Warner know that with a smaller budget , with the audience that they have seemingly won ( Yup i don't count the number of time where i have heard people said that they were not Superman fans untill Sr ) and the return of a lot of fans ( come on maybe not you ,and some others on those boards but a lot of Superman fans that they liked or not the movie will see the sequel on the big screen ) plus the fact that they will do an effort to reach the action audience , they have a potential huge hit there.

 

[lexlives]

The final sales will be bigger. In early january, it was stated that BB sold 6,15 million copies, according to IMDB, the 6,8 million copies number came later. Also for the last time, forget this "maybe now WB will give up on a Singer sequel", they signed a deal with him before there were any DVD sales numbers.

Plus, for the last time, there WON´T be a reboot in just six or seven years if the Singer version didn´t go ahead. If it happened, we wouldn´t see another Superman movie in over a decade, easily. And I´m being optimistic. To make this one alone took almost twenty years.

I may be mistaken but I think the 6.8 million for BB is for 2005. The end of year numbers are always ranked. I am not aware that they come out with number say through February or March the following year as there really is no final number for a DVD. BB sold well during X-Mas season this year especially with the HD version so the 6.8 million is probably a good bit over 7 million now.

But even if we assume it was 6.1 million through December 05 and then went on to sell another 700,000 - by what date I don't know as that number does not include XMAS 2006 sales or probably anything past March of 2006 as I know I saw the 6.8 million number in early 2006 - then we extrapolate to SR. Around 5.1 million through 2006 and another 11% would bring it just show of 5.8 million for the "final" numer as you referenced the BB 6.8 million figure. That assumption of another 11% for SR is probably over-stated as SR underperformed BB in the DVD market generally.

 

[ultimatefan]

Even if Singer does a sequel and Lex has a smaller part it would still be a mistake to continue with him as campy. I'm afraid that is what Singer would do the argument being he started out that way in SR so he has to stay "in character".

There are just so many changes needed IMO and I don't get a sense, aside from more action, that we'll see any other changes. IMO more action alone won't do it.

Michael Rosenbaum's Lex is so much more intriguing.

Not just MR, John Shea did a great Lex on L&C but was only on for season 1. Shame they didn't continue with him.

What I really liked too about Shea's Luthor was his surrounding himself with competent and deadly serious associates.

It is up to the studio to judge as you say and I believe they are still in that process with SR. The early talk of a sequel may hav been in part to boost DVD sales - they would be foolish to indicate they were wavering on a sequel before the DVD release as that would hurt sales. Same thing happened with Hulk.

One thing - BB's sequel was confimred at ShoWest last March as the WB summer 2008 tentpole film. My bet is that we won't see such an early decision on an SR sequel and that WB will not mention a sequel during ShoWest this March.

I think part of their evaluation will be to see the numbers for FF 2 especially. If it cleans up at the BO on a smaller budget than SR, and factoring in how good GR and Spiderman do, I could see this as a negative for WB continuing. By that i mean if FF 2 has a jump like X 2 did, and given the excitement over SS I could see an even bigger jump, it will do about 215 million domestic. WB may look at these numbers and think, in terms of return on investment, maybe they should put 170 million or whatever into an untried franchise character - GL would have the most promise IMO - and they might just end up with another FF which all indications are, early as it is, will be huge next summer.

As I've said it will be interestig to see how it all plays out in the coming months.

So far I don´t think Lex will be in the SR sequel.

I have no idea how GR and FF2 are gonna go. GR is not a household name character like Spidey or Bats, but the movie looks cool, so who the hell knows. FF2, I dunno, the consensus on the first doesn´t seem positive, but the teaser was indeed cool and seemed to point in the right direction.

The studio will make its evaluation from the demand for Superman, I don´t think the way other movies go will be that much of a factor. Last year some analysts tried to say the "wave" of comic book movies was fading cuz of Blade 3 and Elektra and then came Sin City, Batman Begins and FF. Plus at least Spidey 3 should be really huge so I don´t think there´s much to be worried about.

We have seen that Singer is able to improve on a sequel to the same franchise from his X-Men take, so it´s a wait and see matter.

 

[ultimatefan]

I may be mistaken but I think the 6.8 million for BB is for 2005. The end of year numbers are always ranked. I am not aware that they come out with number say through February or March the following year as there really is no final number for a DVD. BB sold well during X-Mas season this year especially with the HD version so the 6.8 million is probably a good bit over 7 million now.

But even if we assume it was 6.1 million through December 05 and then went on to sell another 700,000 - by what date I don't know as that number does not include XMAS 2006 sales or probably anything past March of 2006 as I know I saw the 6.8 million number in early 2006 - then we extrapolate to SR. Around 5.1 million through 2006 and another 11% would bring it just show of 5.8 million for the "final" numer as you referenced the BB 6.8 million figure. That assumption of another 11% for SR is probably over-stated as SR underperformed BB in the DVD market generally.

It may not sell as much as BB, but so far there´s no indication that it will bring any stop to the franchise. If the studio didn´t have enough indication that they´d make good money with SR, they wouldn´t have signed the sequel deal with Singer, and they did before any DVD figures showed up.

 

[dark_b]

It may not sell as much as BB, but so far there´s no indication that it will bring any stop to the franchise. If the studio didn´t have enough indication that they´d make good money with SR, they wouldn´t have signed the sequel deal with Singer, and they did before any DVD figures showed up.

but shouldnt it? i mean he is a light character. i think kids connect with superman more than batman.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

^I don't know, dark. I used to rest in that same category of thinking but the more and more items I see around are typically Batman, X-men, and Spiderman related as far as what little kids like these days. Most of the little kids I talk to at work don't even know the basics about Superman but are conjoined to Spider-Man like it's second nature, ya know? Man, it's irritating.

 

[dark_b]

^I don't know, dark. I used to rest in that same category of thinking but the more and more items I see around are typically Batman, X-men, and Spiderman related as far as what little kids like these days. Most of the little kids I talk to at work don't even know the basics about Superman but are conjoined to Spider-Man like it's second nature, ya know? Man, it's irritating.

interesting.

 

[lexlives]

It may not sell as much as BB, but so far there´s no indication that it will bring any stop to the franchise. If the studio didn´t have enough indication that they´d make good money with SR, they wouldn´t have signed the sequel deal with Singer, and they did before any DVD figures showed up.

But the fact it sold 1 million + less and significantly less in rentals too when BB is supposed to be this dark character which does not appeal a broadly as Superman or Spiderman is not good. The numbers sure aren't bad but they aren't good either - down the middle. That will be a factor in what WB ultimately decides. Like I said, I suspect the signing of Singer to write a potential sequel had as much as anything to do with boosting DVD sales.

That signing occurred under odd circumstances - the weekend it hit 200 million - but look at how if fell off the next week (go to BOM) as in an 80% drop in daily take. I find that odd if not outright suspicious.

 

[lexlives]

^I don't know, dark. I used to rest in that same category of thinking but the more and more items I see around are typically Batman, X-men, and Spiderman related as far as what little kids like these days. Most of the little kids I talk to at work don't even know the basics about Superman but are conjoined to Spider-Man like it's second nature, ya know? Man, it's irritating.

That is true. Until SR you hardly saw Superman toys at Toys R Us and such. it was Spiderman, Batman and X-Men.

WB mis-calculated the popularity of Superman though they should have known better. Any Superman fan could have sadly told them that Superman is not a top seller anymore.

That is why WB has to go back to square one and re-evaluate all of this. They are sort of already - Spiderman 3 has a 300 million, up to anyway, budget while a potential SR sequel will be 145 - 175 million. That is a world of difference. Especially when Raimi spends money prudently unlike Singer did in SR. The BB sequel will also have a bigger budget. So Superman is defacto already being relegated by the studio itself to the second tier of comic genre films in terms of resources it will commit.

Given how poorly Singer used his 223 million in SR FX I see no way we would get knock your socks off FX with a 145 - 175 million sequel. You can't get there from here.

 

[Freddy_Krueger]

But the fact it sold 1 million + less and significantly less in rentals too when BB is supposed to be this dark character which does not appeal a broadly as Superman or Spiderman is not good.

I love this argument. For some reason people don't think Batman appeals broadly...when he DOES. You know what I watched more as a kid between Batman and Superman? Batman. Do you know what my friends watched? Batman.

And we were seven. Little children watching and enjoying this dark character. And you know what? Kids STILL love Batman, as do adults. So this whole Batman has less appeal than Superman thing is bogus and holds no weight. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

 

[lexlives]

So far I don´t think Lex will be in the SR sequel.

I have no idea how GR and FF2 are gonna go. GR is not a household name character like Spidey or Bats, but the movie looks cool, so who the hell knows. FF2, I dunno, the consensus on the first doesn´t seem positive, but the teaser was indeed cool and seemed to point in the right direction.

The studio will make its evaluation from the demand for Superman, I don´t think the way other movies go will be that much of a factor. Last year some analysts tried to say the "wave" of comic book movies was fading cuz of Blade 3 and Elektra and then came Sin City, Batman Begins and FF. Plus at least Spidey 3 should be really huge so I don´t think there´s much to be worried about.

We have seen that Singer is able to improve on a sequel to the same franchise from his X-Men take, so it´s a wait and see matter.

As to the studio making its evaluation you are right - it will be on the appeal of Superman and the numbers - DVD, rentals, toy and game sales and BO.

However, if FF 2 does huge - say 220 million plus (not impossible given its great marketing - FF blew BB away in a number of foreign markets in 2005 remember ) WB is going to be forced to ask itself why did SR do poorly relative to FF and with a much larger budget. One possibility is that the audience is simply not there. if they come to that conclusion they will give Singer a red light of course.

Plus Singer I do not beleive is going to wait around till fall for a green light. His publicly expressing his interest in doing Wolverine and wanting to see the script was, IMO, a shot of sorts at WB. As in don't make we wait too long or I will bolt.

Basically, IMO again, if WB does not give Singer a green light by late spring I expect him to bolt for Wolverine - as it is supposed to go into pre-production in fall 2007 and production early 2008.

This is what I mean by the dance that will unfold between WB and Singer over the next few months. It will be interesting to watch.

 

[Franklin Richards]

With a capital T, and that rhymes with B and that stands for...


BRAINIAC!!!

 

[Dr. Fate]

^I don't know, dark. I used to rest in that same category of thinking but the more and more items I see around are typically Batman, X-men, and Spiderman related as far as what little kids like these days. Most of the little kids I talk to at work don't even know the basics about Superman but are conjoined to Spider-Man like it's second nature, ya know? Man, it's irritating.

Yeah, it's kind of sad.

 

[Comic Book Boy]

You are totally wrong in the negative buzz being SHH, Go to the DC boards or Superman Cinema. More telling go to the general movie boards.

There is no desire or excitement for/about a sequel. The DVD numbers only confirm that.

Yes, Fox is right now trying to lure Singer away for the new X-Men prequel trilogy and I hope he bails and goes witht that. Surely less grief for him cause he would be under the microscope he would be if WB actually gives a green light. Plus the X-Men sequel will have a larger budget by far than a Superman sequel.

My opinion, Singer and WB will come to a polite parting of the ways in the next few months nd the Superman franchise will be put on indefinite hold.

That means not another Superman film for 7 or 8 years, but it is the best thing, the absolute best thing, that can happen to this franchise.

If Singer gets another shot he will kill the Superman film franchise.

Now given the less than robust DVD sales and rentals and the negative buzz all over the internet - go search for yourself - I think it is becoming increasingly impossible for WB to continue with Singer. As I said, it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next few months.

I love how you pretend you know what you are talking about. You know nothing of the film industry.

 

[Comic Book Boy]

Money isn't everything. Plenty of amazing films didn't make money. BEGINS didn't make as much as F4, (which sucked).
Maybe it is more useful to just try and make good films.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

As to the studio making its evaluation you are right - it will be on the appeal of Superman and the numbers - DVD, rentals, toy and game sales and BO.

However, if FF 2 does huge - say 220 million plus (not impossible given its great marketing - FF blew BB away in a number of foreign markets in 2005 remember ) WB is going to be forced to ask itself why did SR do poorly relative to FF and with a much larger budget. One possibility is that the audience is simply not there. if they come to that conclusion they will give Singer a red light of course.

Plus Singer I do not beleive is going to wait around till fall for a green light. His publicly expressing his interest in doing Wolverine and wanting to see the script was, IMO, a shot of sorts at WB. As in don't make we wait too long or I will bolt.

Basically, IMO again, if WB does not give Singer a green light by late spring I expect him to bolt for Wolverine - as it is supposed to go into pre-production in fall 2007 and production early 2008.

This is what I mean by the dance that will unfold between WB and Singer over the next few months. It will be interesting to watch.

Singer never said he wanted the to see the Wolverine script until AFTER he signed up for the SR sequel though, so your theory is wrong.