The Defenders This show in the larger MCU...

[Havok83]

Regardless of what is said, I think people are better off just looking at the Netflix shows as existing within their own universe.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

That’ll still be awkward considering the latest release which I believed was JJ season 2, has another name drop for captain America, reminding the audience yet again in 2018 that the show is connected to the movies

 

[Havok83]

That’ll still be awkward considering the latest release which I believed was JJ season 2, has another name drop for captain America, reminding the audience yet again in 2018 that the show is connected to the movies

hence the concept of multiple universes. In the books there are multiple versions of Cap across different universes. Envision the same here. The references have been very thin and not integral to the plot, unlike Agents of SHIELD. Its very easy to ignore and move on but people are very nitpicky about this which overall has had little to no bearing on the shows

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

hence the concept of multiple universes. In the books there are multiple versions of Cap across different universes. Envision the same here. The references have been very thin and not integral to the plot, unlike Agents of SHIELD. Its very easy to ignore and move on but people are very nitpicky about this which overall has had little to no bearing on the shows

the concept of multiple universes is still just another fan proposition. Nothing at all changes the fact that officially, the Netflix shows are canon to the movies and the MCU narrative as a whole does a poor job what it’s suposed to

 

[Havok83]

the concept of multiple universes is still just another fan proposition. Nothing at all changes the fact that officially, the Netflix shows are canon to the movies and the MCU narrative as a whole does a poor job what it’s suposed to

Obviously. I never said they exist in multiple universes and I know whats intended to be official canon.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Obviously. I never said they exist in multiple universes and I know whats intended to be official canon.

so what's the point of even bringing up multiple universes if it's just another what if?

 

[dmcreif]

hence the concept of multiple universes. In the books there are multiple versions of Cap across different universes. Envision the same here. The references have been very thin and not integral to the plot, unlike Agents of SHIELD. Its very easy to ignore and move on but people are very nitpicky about this which overall has had little to no bearing on the shows

I like the 'alternate universes' theory because it certainly explains away other continuity snarls, like why the Netflix shows have the MetLife Building instead of Avengers Tower, or why Luke Cage season 1 establishes Barack Obama as being President in 2015 rather than Matthew Ellis as the movies and Agents of SHIELD have it. Or why the Netflix heroes never crossed paths with the Vulture's weapons dealing (because in this universe, Vulture was replaced with the Judas bullets Diamondback was selling).

 

[Havok83]

so what's the point of even bringing up multiple universes if it's just another what if?

to help people that nitpick every little thing and cant just enjoy the projects for what they are

I like the 'alternate universes' theory because it certainly explains away other continuity snarls, like why the Netflix shows have the MetLife Building instead of Avengers Tower, or why Luke Cage season 1 establishes Barack Obama as being President in 2015 rather than Matthew Ellis as the movies and Agents of SHIELD have it. Or why the Netflix heroes never crossed paths with the Vulture's weapons dealing (because in this universe, Vulture was replaced with the Judas bullets Diamondback was selling).

Agreed. It doesnt take away from anything and alot simpler to resolve. People are definitely going to drive themselves crazy trying to make sense of things following IW's ending

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

to help people that nitpick every little thing and cant just enjoy the projects for what they are

maybe for other people but fan canons and theories don't mask the poor storytelling for me. my standards probably just higher than most

Agreed. It doesnt take away from anything and alot simpler to resolve. People are definitely going to drive themselves crazy trying to make sense of things following IW's ending

it does take away from what the MCU actually is, which officially still is the fact that the Netflix shows are connected to the movies

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Honestly, I feel pretty good about where the Defenders sits in proximity to the Avengers.

The Defenders as a team have been involved in one incident in between (for all I'm concerned) the battle for NY and a few months after Civil War. That incident was a battle against magic secret ninjas who only come out at night.

In that time SHIELD was being disbanded, Thor was mostly off planet, Cap was dealing with Bucky and Hydra, Iron Man tried retiring for Pepper and pursuing other projects (BARF, etc) and no one else really matters. (Spidey was 10, BP was in Wakanda, DS was in surgery)

But what about the individual heroes? I think it stands to reason that Stark knows about Matt, Jessica, Luke, Danny. He probably has dossiers on all of them jsut like he had on the other avengers, and eventually Spidey.

Except, Peter is a 15 year old kid, easily controlled and the most mentally stable (and hasn't been incarcerated). We didn't hear about Spidey until Tony needed him. He doesnt want the Defenders on his team.

And also, the Avengers have been on roughly 4 missions as a full team.
1. Reclaim the tesseract, apprehend Loki
2. Storm hydra base, reclaim scepter
3. Defeat Ultron, Defeat Ultron, Defeat Ultron
4. Defeat the black order, stop thanos

I'm under the impression that this is reasonable. If we are meant to believe there's a lot of weird and wacky **** going on in this universe, (see agents of shield) then I am fully on board with these groups being separated as they are.

The caveat: It won't be acceptable forever...
- If Iron Fist and Doctor Strange dont cross paths soon, it will seem dumb.
- If there isn't a timeline shift or split in A4, and they never mention Thanos, dumb.
- If the Defenders continue to group up, or are ever national news, and they NEVER met an Avenger or two, dumb.

But so far so good.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Honestly, I feel pretty good about where the Defenders sits in proximity to the Avengers.

The Defenders as a team have been involved in one incident in between (for all I'm concerned) the battle for NY and a few months after Civil War. That incident was a battle against magic secret ninjas who only come out at night.

In that time SHIELD was being disbanded, Thor was mostly off planet, Cap was dealing with Bucky and Hydra, Iron Man tried retiring for Pepper and pursuing other projects (BARF, etc) and no one else really matters. (Spidey was 10, BP was in Wakanda, DS was in surgery)

But what about the individual heroes? I think it stands to reason that Stark knows about Matt, Jessica, Luke, Danny. He probably has dossiers on all of them jsut like he had on the other avengers, and eventually Spidey.

Except, Peter is a 15 year old kid, easily controlled and the most mentally stable (and hasn't been incarcerated). We didn't hear about Spidey until Tony needed him. He doesnt want the Defenders on his team.

And also, the Avengers have been on roughly 4 missions as a full team.
1. Reclaim the tesseract, apprehend Loki
2. Storm hydra base, reclaim scepter
3. Defeat Ultron, Defeat Ultron, Defeat Ultron
4. Defeat the black order, stop thanos

I'm under the impression that this is reasonable. If we are meant to believe there's a lot of weird and wacky **** going on in this universe, (see agents of shield) then I am fully on board with these groups being separated as they are.

The caveat: It won't be acceptable forever...
- If Iron Fist and Doctor Strange dont cross paths soon, it will seem dumb.
- If there isn't a timeline shift or split in A4, and they never mention Thanos, dumb.
- If the Defenders continue to group up, or are ever national news, and they NEVER met an Avenger or two, dumb.

But so far so good.

I get what you’re saying, but it doesn’t make sense that Tony wouldn’t even try to recruit the other Netflix heroes and just settled on Spider-Man. This plot hole is gonna become worse depending on if NY will be a significant setting in Av4 and it already kinda is if the post credits scene in Av3 was in Manhattan, though it might notve been

 

[dmcreif]

I get what you’re saying, but it doesn’t make sense that Tony wouldn’t even try to recruit the other Netflix heroes and just settled on Spider-Man.

Tony explicitly wanted a heavy-hitter (someone who as he notes in Civil War stopped a heavy car dead in tracks moving at 40 mph) against the likes of super-soldiers Captain America and Winter Soldier and Scarlet Witch. And on a character level, Tony would gravitate to a science nerd teenager rather than a lawyer with a social conscience (and the fact that Matt is a lawyer who moonlights as a vigilante would suggest that he doesn't believe that the law should be exclusively trusted), and would probably not even bother with the other two. Also, a poor teenage kid is easier to impress into service in a factional dispute than an experienced lawyer and zealous vigilante, and Iron Man is fighting an ideological fight against Cap.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Tony explicitly wanted a heavy-hitter (someone who as he notes in Civil War stopped a heavy car dead in tracks moving at 40 mph) against the likes of super-soldiers Captain America and Winter Soldier and Scarlet Witch. And on a character level, Tony would gravitate to a science nerd teenager rather than a lawyer with a social conscience (and the fact that Matt is a lawyer who moonlights as a vigilante would suggest that he doesn't believe that the law should be exclusively trusted), and would probably not even bother with the other two. Also, a poor teenage kid is easier to impress into service in a factional dispute than an experienced lawyer and zealous vigilante, and Iron Man is fighting an ideological fight against Cap.

Again, this is still a bunch of what-if fan explanations. It’s not like there was a scene in Civil War where Tony said “Hmm, there’s half a dozen superheroes operating in New York, but I’ll go after just the one young kid coz he’ll be easy to manipulate.”

So, there is no actual reason to believe that Peter having youth is why Tony didn’t talk to the Netflix characters. As far as heavy hitters go, Tony had Black Widow on his side, and Daredevil would be at least as effective as her. Luke Cage in terms of brute strength would be at least as effective as Spider-Man, literally another heavy hitter right there.

I could go on and on about this; ultimately it’s never going to make sense and will always be a plot hole as long as Hollywood politics get in the way of television and film integration. There’s no reason storytelling-wise that the Defenders and Avengers haven’t crossed paths

 

[Spider-Fan]

Spider-Man trumps all of the Defenders characters in terms of power. Luke is strong, but his strength feats don't come close to Peter's, and he even if his strength does, he lacks Peter's versatile power set. Same can be said about Peter vs any Defenders hero.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I also think another good reason Tony never recruited them is all of them would have said no (Danny may have agreed...but he wasn't around then). None of them would have sided with Stark's cause in a million years.

 

[Havok83]

Spider-Man trumps all of the Defenders characters in terms of power. Luke is strong, but his strength feats don't come close to Peter's, and he even if his strength does, he lacks Peter's versatile power set. Same can be said about Peter vs any Defenders hero.

To be fair, Tony didnt know that. The limits of Peter's powers werent tested and a few YT videos werent enough to suggest he'd be able to go up against Cap and his crew, especially with no formal training. Tony recruiting Peter was problematic for many reasons but focusing so much on him over the Defenders is ridiculous IMO

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Spider-Man trumps all of the Defenders characters in terms of power. Luke is strong, but his strength feats don't come close to Peter's, and he even if his strength does, he lacks Peter's versatile power set. Same can be said about Peter vs any Defenders hero.

According to IGN, Luke Cage is as strong as Loki, which means he could probably hold his own against Thor. I don't know if Spiderman is that strong but even if he's more powerful than Luke, that's still a whole lot of brute strength for Tony to ignore.

I also think another good reason Tony never recruited them is all of them would have said no (Danny may have agreed...but he wasn't around then). None of them would have sided with Stark's cause in a million years.

Matt would say no, Jessica might not care that much but Luke Cage might be able to see where Tony's coming from if he cared to meet and explain himself

 

[Jh7058622]

I also think another good reason Tony never recruited them is all of them would have said no (Danny may have agreed...but he wasn't around then). None of them would have sided with Stark's cause in a million years.

That makes it worse and makes his stance come across even more pathetic. "can't get any adult to agree with me because it's obviously against all ethical logic so let me try to coerce a teenage highschooler with superpowers. My ethics are already in question anyway"

 

[Havok83]

According to IGN, Luke Cage is as strong as Loki, which means he could probably hold his own against Thor. I don't know if Spiderman is that strong but even if he's more powerful than Luke, that's still a whole lot of brute strength for Tony to ignore.
Matt would say no, Jessica might not care that much but Luke Cage might be able to see where Tony's coming from if he cared to meet and explain himself

Not with Mjlonir and the elemental powers. Besides Thor wasnt in Civil War so thats moot..

Matt would say no, Jessica might not care that much but Luke Cage might be able to see where Tony's coming from if he cared to meet and explain himself

I dont see why anyone of them would care. Capturing Winter Soldier and helping to apprehend Captain America was above all of their heads. They had nothing to gain in the fight

That makes it worse and makes his stance come across even more pathetic. "can't get any adult to agree with me because it's obviously against all ethical logic so let me try to coerce a teenage highschooler with superpowers. My ethics are already in question anyway"

hence recruiting Peter was stupid and wrong on so many levels

 

[SPO2 Dalisay]

Spider-Man trumps all of the Defenders characters in terms of power. Luke is strong, but his strength feats don't come close to Peter's, and he even if his strength does, he lacks Peter's versatile power set. Same can be said about Peter vs any Defenders hero.

I agree, it was the webbing which offered the chance of a soft capture along with the agility in Stark's hope that the kids would not take a hit.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

Not with Mjlonir and the elemental powers. Besides Thor wasnt in Civil War so thats moot..



I dont see why anyone of them would care. Capturing Winter Soldier and helping to apprehend Captain America was above all of their heads. They had nothing to gain in the fight



hence recruiting Peter was stupid and wrong on so many levels

Yeah with his hammer he’s way more powerful that’s true. I meant the character on his own but regardless of the fact that he wasn’t there, I’m just using his strength as a scale. There are probably in universe YouTube videos of Luke Cage just like there are of Spider-Man aside from that Stark would have the resources to track him down

As for Luke not caring, if the MCU fully made sense then the Accords would apply to the Netflix characters as well, Tony would’ve approached Luke and told him that eventually he’d be subject to it too

 

[Spider-Fan]

According to IGN, Luke Cage is as strong as Loki, which means he could probably hold his own against Thor. I don't know if Spiderman is that strong but even if he's more powerful than Luke, that's still a whole lot of brute strength for Tony to ignore.
Matt would say no, Jessica might not care that much but Luke Cage might be able to see where Tony's coming from if he cared to meet and explain himself

IGN I think is ignoring the fact Elektra...someone basically a little beyond a common ninja, knocked him flat unconscious. Do you think Elektra could have KO'd Thor? I don't. I don't even think Elektra could have KO'd Captain America.

Luke would never have done it. In his own show at that time, he was doing all he could to AVOID attention from anyone associated with a badge of any kind.

That makes it worse and makes his stance come across even more pathetic. "can't get any adult to agree with me because it's obviously against all ethical logic so let me try to coerce a teenage highschooler with superpowers. My ethics are already in question anyway"

Tony recruiting a teenager no matter how you dissect it is problematic. But, again...Tony is basically a villain in CW. Cap is the main character.

 

[Havok83]

Yeah with his hammer he’s way more powerful that’s true. I meant the character on his own but regardless of the fact that he wasn’t there, I’m just using his strength as a scale. There are probably in universe YouTube videos of Luke Cage just like there are of Spider-Man aside from that Stark would have the resources to track him down

As for Luke not caring, if the MCU fully made sense then the Accords would apply to the Netflix characters as well, Tony would’ve approached Luke and told him that eventually he’d be subject to it too

The Accord were irrelevant. That was not why Tony recruited Spider-man. He did so to help apprehend Winter Soldier and Cap, both of whom were wanted fugitives at that point. Tony wasnt fighting for the Accords so that wouldnt have come into play when trying to recruit the Netflix characters. I dont see why they would care to want to get involved and help arrest Captain America, a national hero. They didnt have a horse in that race

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

I’m on mobile, but I’ll try to reply by tonight

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

IGN I think is ignoring the fact Elektra...someone basically a little beyond a common ninja, knocked him flat unconscious. Do you think Elektra could have KO'd Thor? I don't. I don't even think Elektra could have KO'd Captain America.

I think Elektra got a superhuman power boost after she came back to life.

Luke would never have done it. In his own show at that time, he was doing all he could to AVOID attention from anyone associated with a badge of any kind.

I think you're on to something here but it still is not a reason for Tony not to even try to recruit him or the other Netflix characters, based on points that have been said over and over again.

Tony recruiting a teenager no matter how you dissect it is problematic. But, again...Tony is basically a villain in CW. Cap is the main character.

nah...the way that film was promoted had Iron Man as almost as important of a character as Cap, with the whole hashtag team cap/hashtag team Iron Man and the poster with them two going head to head; it was a very personal story for Stark too the way I saw it

The Accord were irrelevant. That was not why Tony recruited Spider-man. He did so to help apprehend Winter Soldier and Cap, both of whom were wanted fugitives at that point. Tony wasnt fighting for the Accords so that wouldnt have come into play when trying to recruit the Netflix characters. I dont see why they would care to want to get involved and help arrest Captain America, a national hero. They didnt have a horse in that race

Peter didn't have a horse in that race either and Stark decided to choose one for him. I thought the Accord was the reason why the Avengers weren't all on the same page in the first place