TIH vs. Ang Lee's Hulk

[Slushy]

Another thing I want to add is I felt the deleted scenes added to the TIH film especially Banner's fireside chat with Leonard. Powerful stuff!

Edward Norton had every right to be pissed about his film getting trimmed.

 

[Artistsean]

Another thing I want to add is I felt the deleted scenes added to the TIH film especially Banner's fireside chat with Leonard. Powerful stuff!

What was his scene with Leonard about? I should watch that, I have it.

 

[Shazam]

Good to see TIH is still ahead considerably.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Does anyone else get ticked off when they hear the genaric complaint over HULK 03
"I don't want I thought provoking Hulk that deals with issues, its the Hulk! I WANT TO SEE HIM SMASH STUFF!"

I might as well gripe that Nolan spends way too much time dealing with the characters emotions and psyches when all I wanna see is Batman puch out some goons. Pluse Hulk DOES smash several things in HULK.

Its a silly argument to me yes, the Hulk as a character is a lot more than just 'Hulk Smash' and so I am glad Ang's movie decided to go into that. It makes the Hulk a lot more interesting as a character to have some depth to him and not just be a monstor. The action we did get in the movie was superb as well as you pointed out.

But how people cannot want depth in a movie is beyond me.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I think a thoughtful and symbolic Hulk movie is fine.

The problem with Ang Lee's Hulk is it's too abstract for most people to get into. So no one appreciates the symbolism and thoughtfulness except for a handful of people. You are better off creating something less confusing and ambiguous that most people can enjoy.

 

[jonathancrane]

I think a thoughtful and symbolic Hulk movie is fine.

The problem with Ang Lee's Hulk is it's too abstract for most people to get into. So no one appreciates the symbolism and thoughtfulness except for a handful of people. You are better off creating something less confusing and ambiguous that most people can enjoy.

There was an attempt at symbolism, but it's impossible to make an intellectually stimulating film when there are mutant poodles involved. In addition, I appreciate the attempt to capture the aesthetic of the comics, but Lee indecisiveness about the film - whether he wanted to make a comic book film, a science fiction film, or an exercise in philosophy - ended up making it ineffective, because it did not have the proper ratio for all, and is ineffective as a film, a waste of celluloid.

 

[El Payaso]

There was an attempt at symbolism, but it's impossible to make an intellectually stimulating film when there are mutant poodles involved. In addition, I appreciate the attempt to capture the aesthetic of the comics, but Lee indecisiveness about the film - whether he wanted to make a comic book film, a science fiction film, or an exercise in philosophy - ended up making it ineffective, because it did not have the proper ratio for all, and is ineffective as a film, a waste of celluloid.

I agree that the biggest flaw here was the indecision on what movie Lee was making.

I think he talked about that himself in an interview. About how he was after a movie and then the studios made their usual demands, more action, love story, etc. As a consequence the next movie, TIH, was so rushed that it felt like a glimpse of what should have been a real Hulk movie.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I agree.

The movie was all over the place which is frustrating.

I consider it a noble experiment but ultimately a failure as a superhero movie (it commits the cardinal sin of being boring).

 

[Spider-Fan]

Its a silly argument to me yes, the Hulk as a character is a lot more than just 'Hulk Smash' and so I am glad Ang's movie decided to go into that. It makes the Hulk a lot more interesting as a character to have some depth to him and not just be a monstor. The action we did get in the movie was superb as well as you pointed out.

But how people cannot want depth in a movie is beyond me.

It's not a matter of not wanting depth, it is a matter of wanting depth that works, and in the case of Ang's film, it is mixed. That's the problem. It's not all everyone wants Hulk Smash! We want good Hulk movies, and for a movie to be good, it must succeed at what it strives to be. Ang's film has lofty goals but shoddy execution in many ways. See the terrible mutant poodles, the non-sensical plot points, etc. While aspects work, the film itself doesn't succeed on its goals. Other films that strive for depth and fail at it, such as Superman Returns, I also dislike for the same reason.

 

[Slushy]

What was his scene with Leonard about? I should watch that, I have it.

Leonard admits that

Spoiler

he wishes Bruce was dead. Not because he hates him, but so he could have Betty all to himself.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Interestingly, since the name "Leonard Samson" appears in the opening credits on a list of Banner's contacts, it turns out Betty must have been dating a different psychiatrist named Leonard.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I think a thoughtful and symbolic Hulk movie is fine.

The problem with Ang Lee's Hulk is it's too abstract for most people to get into. So no one appreciates the symbolism and thoughtfulness except for a handful of people. You are better off creating something less confusing and ambiguous that most people can enjoy.

I dont see how, I enjoyed the movie as a 21 year old in 2003 and didnt find it confusing either, most of the depth and symbolism really added to the story and characters for me.

It's not a matter of not wanting depth, it is a matter of wanting depth that works, and in the case of Ang's film, it is mixed. That's the problem. It's not all everyone wants Hulk Smash! We want good Hulk movies, and for a movie to be good, it must succeed at what it strives to be. Ang's film has lofty goals but shoddy execution in many ways. See the terrible mutant poodles, the non-sensical plot points, etc. While aspects work, the film itself doesn't succeed on its goals. Other films that strive for depth and fail at it, such as Superman Returns, I also dislike for the same reason.

There was ONE poodle in the movie and it was derived from the Hulk dogs who were in the comics. Plus I didnt see many non-sensical plot points. Most of the depth and symbolism worked for the story and characters and made us care about them. Non of this was evident in TIH, the characters were just there, going through the motions. There was barely any emotion in the movie either. Due the depth that worked in Ang's movie (not all of it did but no movie is perfect) I cared a lot about the characters, even the Hulk himself. In TIH i feel nothing for the Hulk or Banner, as they are just there and react to people. Hulk himself in TIH barely shows anything beyond anger either which doesnt help.

 

[Spider-Fan]

There was ONE poodle in the movie and it was derived from the Hulk dogs who were in the comics. Plus I didnt see many non-sensical plot points. Most of the depth and symbolism worked for the story and characters and made us care about them. Non of this was evident in TIH, the characters were just there, going through the motions. There was barely any emotion in the movie either. Due the depth that worked in Ang's movie (not all of it did but no movie is perfect) I cared a lot about the characters, even the Hulk himself. In TIH i feel nothing for the Hulk or Banner, as they are just there and react to people. Hulk himself in TIH barely shows anything beyond anger either which doesnt help.

Don't want to break down certain things again, but to summarize, the army letting his dad talk to him made absolutely no sense what so ever in the movie for any logical reasons. That's a big problem. I also disagree on TIH lacking any depth. I think people who love Ang's movie say it lacks any depth because it didn't try to be Ang's movie. I give Ang credit for being ambitious, yes. But, I give him no credit for success on said ambition.

 

[El Payaso]

Don't want to break down certain things again, but to summarize, the army letting his dad talk to him made absolutely no sense what so ever in the movie for any logical reasons. That's a big problem. I also disagree on TIH lacking any depth. I think people who love Ang's movie say it lacks any depth because it didn't try to be Ang's movie. I give Ang credit for being ambitious, yes. But, I give him no credit for success on said ambition.

I agree and have said so in this very thread. But that makes me think of TIH. What sense does it make that everyone saw Banner turning into the Hulk and then he was free to visit Betty, face Gen. Ross and leave the hospital. Isn't he supposed to be a fugitive? And Ross got him at the hospital and what? Just let him go?

 

[Spider-Fan]

I agree and have said so in this very thread. But that makes me think of TIH. What sense does it make that everyone saw Banner turning into the Hulk and then he was free to visit Betty, face Gen. Ross and leave the hospital. Isn't he supposed to be a fugitive? And Ross got him at the hospital and what? Just let him go?

I think he probaby snuck into that hospital in that opening montage, but you are right...Ross should have been able to grab him then, or show Bruce have to use his wits to escape. I give ya that. Difference for me though is that is part of a quick montage, while in Ang's film, that dumb piece of writing anchors the rest of the film. So, I am willing to forgive the short blip over the main set piece.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I think a thoughtful and symbolic Hulk movie is fine.

The problem with Ang Lee's Hulk is it's too abstract for most people to get into. So no one appreciates the symbolism and thoughtfulness except for a handful of people. You are better off creating something less confusing and ambiguous that most people can enjoy.

It's not just that, but, like Spifa said, I don't think the depth worked, and depth isn't everything. ALH tries to do to much and, to me it fails.

I'm not saying TIH is a classic, but as I said earlier, I think it's better movie because I believe it's more successful at being a summer blockbuster movie quality wise than Hulk is at being whatever it was going for. Personally I didn't think it succeeded at being either a blockbuster or an art film.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I agree and have said so in this very thread. But that makes me think of TIH. What sense does it make that everyone saw Banner turning into the Hulk and then he was free to visit Betty, face Gen. Ross and leave the hospital. Isn't he supposed to be a fugitive? And Ross got him at the hospital and what? Just let him go?

You do have point, but that's part of a pre-credit montage and I don't think that would distract from the movie in any way. It's one of those "I'll let it slide moments", almost like the "Joker's still in the room after Batman saved Rachel" thing, but to a lesser extent than that.

 

[El Payaso]

I think he probaby snuck into that hospital in that opening montage, but you are right...Ross should have been able to grab him then, or show Bruce have to use his wits to escape. I give ya that. Difference for me though is that is part of a quick montage, while in Ang's film, that dumb piece of writing anchors the rest of the film. So, I am willing to forgive the short blip over the main set piece.

Oh there IS a difference. I, for one, hated that whole rushed montage. It did nothing, just maybe telling you this is a different story than the Ang Lee film. But it was so damn rushed that narratively did nothing for the characters. I don't get why Banner and Betty love each other. I get that he winks at her, that's it. But it tells nothing valuable that's used in the movie.

You do have point, but that's part of a pre-credit montage and I don't think that would distract from the movie in any way. It's one of those "I'll let it slide moments", almost like the "Joker's still in the room after Batman saved Rachel" thing, but to a lesser extent than that.

I don't believe in 'let it slide moments.' I believe in moments that you decide to let go.

Now, Gral. Ross and the soldiers showed that behaviour throughout the whole movie. First he let Banner go just like that. Then, he faces Hulk at the campus and not even him and a group of soldiers can hold Betty for a while, the thin girl escapes. Then Hulk battles the jeeps and Betty manages to escape once again with no problem. And it was in such a moment that Hulk was being shot by the helicopter. Ross was "NOOOO." Sure man, maybe if you could hold your beloved daughter for 2 minutes straight! But she gets in the middle of everything so easily. Apparently the ferocious and determined general and his men can't keep a girl still.

About the Bruce and David dialogue. I get Ross and the army were being humanitarian. Both Bruce and David were probably going to be imprisoned forever so they gave them a chance to a last word since both were separated when Bruce was a child and had little chance to talk. As long as they take precautions I'm okay with it, and so they did. Problem is that the situation started to look and sound like it was getting ugly, with Bruce screaming and everything and they did nothing.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Oh there IS a difference. I, for one, hated that whole rushed montage. It did nothing, just maybe telling you this is a different story than the Ang Lee film. But it was so damn rushed that narratively did nothing for the characters. I don't get why Banner and Betty love each other. I get that he winks at her, that's it. But it tells nothing valuable that's used in the movie.

I'd argue why it was included, but I don't feel like it.

I don't believe in 'let it slide moments.' I believe in moments that you decide to let go.

It's the same thing.

If it bothers you that much, then fine. The whole movie's ruined.

And by the way, nice coat.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Oh there IS a difference. I, for one, hated that whole rushed montage. It did nothing, just maybe telling you this is a different story than the Ang Lee film. But it was so damn rushed that narratively did nothing for the characters. I don't get why Banner and Betty love each other. I get that he winks at her, that's it. But it tells nothing valuable that's used in the movie.

The wink shows they have a history. Yes, it is not expanded upon, but that is one area the film acts a bit as a sequel as opposed to a whole new origin itself.

I don't believe in 'let it slide moments.' I believe in moments that you decide to let go.

It's a minor plot point in the end. The montage glosses over Hulk's history.

Now, Gral. Ross and the soldiers showed that behaviour throughout the whole movie. First he let Banner go just like that. Then, he faces Hulk at the campus and not even him and a group of soldiers can hold Betty for a while, the thin girl escapes. Then Hulk battles the jeeps and Betty manages to escape once again with no problem. And it was in such a moment that Hulk was being shot by the helicopter. Ross was "NOOOO." Sure man, maybe if you could hold your beloved daughter for 2 minutes straight! But she gets in the middle of everything so easily. Apparently the ferocious and determined general and his men can't keep a girl still.

About the Bruce and David dialogue. I get Ross and the army were being humanitarian. Both Bruce and David were probably going to be imprisoned forever so they gave them a chance to a last word since both were separated when Bruce was a child and had little chance to talk. As long as they take precautions I'm okay with it, and so they did. Problem is that the situation started to look and sound like it was getting ugly, with Bruce screaming and everything and they did nothing.

It's not just them standing around like morons while his dad is yelling at the man that they are afraid of being angry/emotional that is dumb. General Ross wants Bruce's dad in a big way. Big time criminal for him. He also fears what Bruce becomes. Why on Earth would he allow him ANY time with his son? Ross knows it won't end well. It contradicts his character. It also makes him an idiot because he allows Bruce & David to escape, and David to allow the Hulk to come out. The entire sequence and set up to it is ridiculous.

 

[El Payaso]

The wink shows they have a history. Yes, it is not expanded upon, but that is one area the film acts a bit as a sequel as opposed to a whole new origin itself.

Which was bad. I think the movie had more to offer if we had known the full story from the beginning.

It's not just them standing around like morons while his dad is yelling at the man that they are afraid of being angry/emotional that is dumb. General Ross wants Bruce's dad in a big way. Big time criminal for him. He also fears what Bruce becomes. Why on Earth would he allow him ANY time with his son? Ross knows it won't end well. It contradicts his character. It also makes him an idiot because he allows Bruce & David to escape, and David to allow the Hulk to come out. The entire sequence and set up to it is ridiculous.

Well, as I said it's clear he did it because of humanitarian reasons etc. Plus he feels partially responsible for that situation, when he pushed David Banner to his over-reaction. No, Ross couldn't have predicted David was going to provoke a gamma explosion and kill his wife, but he feels responsible for not watching closer what he was doing with his own son.

But Ross took his precautions, they were ready to zap Banner if anything happened. But somehow they waited far too long.

But well, I gotta more reasons there than as to why on Earth Ross can't hold his daughter even whith the help of his soldiers. Hell, I don't even get how did he allow Betty to go with Bruce Banner to the open rear lockgate of the helicopter.

 

[SymbioteKal-El]

Wow, long-time no post but why I am not surprised to a threat like this doing the rounds

Anyway, Ang's movie is the superior one for me, I have always been more interested in what happens inside Bruce's/Hulk's mind and it was great to see Hulk delve into that. TIH didnt address this at all except for the odd 'Hulk-vision' scene's which really added nothing, just that Bruce experiences flash-backs from his Hulk-outs.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Which was bad. I think the movie had more to offer if we had known the full story from the beginning.

I can see why it was done that way, though. It was to avoid the origin story for another movie in such a short period after the last movie. On that front, I agree with that decision to gloss over it.

Well, as I said it's clear he did it because of humanitarian reasons etc. Plus he feels partially responsible for that situation, when he pushed David Banner to his over-reaction. No, Ross couldn't have predicted David was going to provoke a gamma explosion and kill his wife, but he feels responsible for not watching closer what he was doing with his own son.

But Ross took his precautions, they were ready to zap Banner if anything happened. But somehow they waited far too long.

But well, I gotta more reasons there than as to why on Earth Ross can't hold his daughter even whith the help of his soldiers. Hell, I don't even get how did he allow Betty to go with Bruce Banner to the open rear lockgate of the helicopter.

They took precautions in case something happened, and then did nothing. Totally stupid and lazily written. Also, Ross I don't feel would put his country at risk so his son could give his dad a hug, essentially (not trying to sound ruse or anything, but from a writer's perspective, that is how it looks to me). Not this version of Ross, at least. Yes, the character was doing something humanitarian, but it completely contradicted his character, IMO.

Ross may feel fault for what David did, and that is why he wants him so bad. However, the way Bruce has been screwed up I don't feel he ever felt was his fault, so why is he atoning for that? He wrote Bruce off as collateral damage, and then saw how his father messed him up. Why does he need atonement for that? Ross has no reason to give his dad what he wanted. The second he is in the army's custody, I feel he just says SEE YA! Takes him to prison (since he didn't know about his powers). Logically, that makes more since given how Ross was portrayed.

As far as why Ross can't hold his daughter in TIH, we see dumb things like that in many action movies, so I guess it is something I have grown numb to over the years. It's a writing cliche' that everyone uses, so I still feel Ang's film makes the larger mistake here.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Don't want to break down certain things again, but to summarize, the army letting his dad talk to him made absolutely no sense what so ever in the movie for any logical reasons. That's a big problem. I also disagree on TIH lacking any depth. I think people who love Ang's movie say it lacks any depth because it didn't try to be Ang's movie. I give Ang credit for being ambitious, yes. But, I give him no credit for success on said ambition.

David clearly says to Betty "If I turn myself in now, peacefully, that you ask your father, as a man, as a father himself, to let me see my son, one last time." That was the deal so they had to honour it, they didnt, sorry, couldnt know that David had super-powers, and they also saw that having Betty on hand would calm the Hulk down, hence why she was there at proceedings. I personally never had a problem with it. They didnt know what David was capable of had they not honoured the deal.

As for TIH, I liked that movie as well, I was it every now and again, but the lack of depth means i'm just not clamouring to re-watch it like I am with Ang's movie. IMO, depth is what makes movies more re-watchable.

 

[Spider-Fan]

David clearly says to Betty "If I turn myself in now, peacefully, that you ask your father, as a man, as a father himself, to let me see my son, one last time." That was the deal so they had to honour it, they didnt, sorry, couldnt know that David had super-powers, and they also saw that having Betty on hand would calm the Hulk down, hence why she was there at proceedings. I personally never had a problem with it. They didnt know what David was capable of had they not honoured the deal.

Why would he honor that deal? The man blew up a gamma bomb, experimented on people, including his son and made him a rage monster! Once again, Ross ALLOWING that meeting is completely and utterly stupid on all level. It's a major plot point that bugs me everytime I watch it.