The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[the GRIN Reaper]

Batman is responsible in that he INSPIRED the Joker. But Joker not having direct BLAME on him by saying he pushed him into a vat of chemicals makes what TDK Joker does all the more frightening. It's a weird relationship him and Batman have. And quite entertaining. He beats his ass with a lead pipe, but WANTS to confront Batman before he blows up two ferry boats. He literally finds their cat and mouse game to be fun. No matter what lives are given up inbetween. Not clinically insane by definition? But he's a ****ing nut ball. Even though at times he can described elequently the flaws and rationale of humanity. That's why he's such an interesting character.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Batman is responsible in that he INSPIRED the Joker. But Joker not having direct BLAME on him by saying he pushed him into a vat of chemicals makes what TDK Joker does all the more frightening. It's a weird relationship him and Batman have. And quite entertaining. He beats his ass with a lead pipe, but WANTS to confront Batman before he blows up two ferry boats. He literally finds their cat and mouse game to be fun. No matter what lives are given up inbetween. Not clinically insane by definition? But he's a ****ing nut ball. Even though at times he can described elequently the flaws and rationale of humanity. That's why he's such an interesting character.

agreed. his commentary on human nature is very agreeable which also makes him more frightening IMO.

 

[nickyg641]

So why does Batman think Joker should be in a padded cell?

I don't think Batman was making a real psychological evaluation of the Joker's mental health. Just an insult.

Anyway, while the Joker may be in full control of his faculties, which I believe he is, it's not at all hard to imagine that a cunning lawyer could convince a jury that he's insane. Plus, do you really want to be on the jury convicting the man who blows up buildings and brutally murders people?

And, as for a solution to makeup in Arkham, I like Reg's original idea:
"Why has no one thought to wash that stuff of his face?"
"He bit two fingers off the nurse who tried."

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea imagen how dangerous Joker could be when hes cornered, like a wild dog attacking everything.

 

[The Joker]

I don't think Batman was making a real psychological evaluation of the Joker's mental health. Just an insult.

I don't think so. Especially considering Batman said Thomas Schiff, a paranoid schizophrenic, a former Arkham patient, is the kind of mind the Joker attracts. Madness attracts madness.

 

[Doc Samson]

Batman is responsible in that he INSPIRED the Joker. But Joker not having direct BLAME on him by saying he pushed him into a vat of chemicals makes what TDK Joker does all the more frightening. It's a weird relationship him and Batman have. And quite entertaining. He beats his ass with a lead pipe, but WANTS to confront Batman before he blows up two ferry boats. He literally finds their cat and mouse game to be fun. No matter what lives are given up inbetween. Not clinically insane by definition? But he's a ****ing nut ball. Even though at times he can described elequently the flaws and rationale of humanity. That's why he's such an interesting character.

Agreed. While inspiration is one thing, someone physically having something to do with you falling into chemicals is quite another

 

[nickyg641]

Batman does not necessarily have to be responsible for his transformation in the "chemical dip". I'd love to see an origin written in which that is true. In fact, I've yet to read a Joker origin that totally fits in with my ideas.

Anyway, I do like the idea that the Joker becomes so of his own volition. But, also, I like the idea that comes with permawhite that he doesn't necessarily choose to be this way, any more than a shark chooses to be a shark. He just is. It's not about revenge, because whoever he was before is dead and gone. He was simply "born" this way, and went about doing what monsters do.

 

[Saint]

So why does Batman think Joker should be in a padded cell?

Because the Joker has one or more psychological conditions. Simply speaking, being insane means you're mentally unsound, but being mentally unsound doesn't necessarily mean you're insane.

Why does every post I see of yours focus on people being correct or incorrect?

Because you do not read enough of my posts. I'm afraid this isn't really my problem. As for the frequency of posts where I point out mistakes, well, I do that because correcting mistakes seems desirable.

What's with the holier than thou attitude all the time? You need to find an outlet in real life outside of these message boards, bro.

I'm afraid I'm not particularly swayed by your rudimentary analysis of my character.

yea i was under the impression there is many forms of insanity? one is that the person in question doesn't know wrong from right, another is that the person knows wrong from right but isn't bound by these feelings?

The reason you are under the impression that there are many forms of insanity is because, as I said earlier, the term "insanity" has become a blanket term used by we laymen to describe a variety of mental conditions. This use of the term is, frankly, meaningless. It's sort of like slang, if you understand my meaning. The only meaningful definition of insanity is the legal definition, which Joker does not fulfill.

Let's not do this again. The Joker is insane. If you don't think so, then you might be just as insane as he is.

No. Yes, the word insanity has entered our lexicon as a general blanket term for the mentally unsound, just as everybody calls their tissue a Kleenex and their photocopier a Xerox--but none of those terms are technically correct, nor is their usage. Using the general definition of insanity when determining whether or not someone is insane is useless, because it's has no solid criteria. The legal definition is the only useful version, because it has specific criteria that must be met in order for the label to apply. These criteria are not met by the Joker, so he is not insane.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

Agreed. While inspiration is one thing, someone physically having something to do with you falling into chemicals is quite another

Right, that's just a pretty sane revenge driven mind. That's NATURAL, an expected emotional response.

Seeing stories of how much power a man dressed up as a Bat has over a city, then willing (whether its true or not) cutting a vicious smile in your face and going around wearing clown makeup frightening the hardest of the hard criminals in Gotham is something totally insane.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

I'm afraid I'm not particularly swayed by your rudimentary analysis of my character.

...

As for the frequency of posts where I point out mistakes, well, I do that because correcting mistakes seems desirable.

LMAO ... thanks for making my point.

Try this behavior in normal social setting, without hiding behind a computer screen. Tell me how far it gets you.

Either way shows what type of person you are to take joy in something like that, quite pathetic actually.

 

[Saint]

LMAO ... thanks for making my point.

The points were not related. First you claim that I "need an outlet" besides the internet, now you say that my behaviour would not be appropriate outside the internet--and if that were true (which it is not), the internet would be my outlet for behaviour not appropriate elsewhere. You could at least keep your rudimentary analysis consistent.

Try this behavior in normal social setting, without hiding behind a computer screen. Tell me how far it gets you.

I do, and it works out fine. Reasonable people are not offended when you correct their mistakes, and fortunately I have no interest in associating with the unreasonable, so I am not bothered if they become offended.

Either way shows what type of person you are to take joy in something like that, quite pathetic actually.

I don't see how. If somebody told you that two plus two is five, you'd correct him. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with "taking joy." It is simply better that the mistake be corrected. When people say things at are wrong, it benefits everyone that their mistakes are corrected. It benefits the person who made the mistake more than anyone. I wouldn't want to go around saying things that are wrong with nobody to tell me--that would just perpetuate the problem. Not only would I be wrong, but other people would assimilate my mistake and be wrong, too.

Moreover, I am always alarmed when people act as if it is some great offense to enjoy what I do. When a scientist submits a theory to a peer-reviewed scientific journal, his or her peers test it to the breaking point--to try and find flaws, to find mistakes. If they find a mistake, the theory is rejected. They enjoy this work, and nobody calls them "pathetic" for it. They enjoy learning about the truth, and they like telling other people what the truth is when they think they've figured it out. You'll understand if I don't give a crap about the attitude that paints this as a bad thing.

Or, to put this much more concisely: I corrected you, and apparently you didn't like it, so know you're going "Boo hoo, Saint is so pathetic!" This really seems like your problem, not mine.

 

[MrQuinn]

woah, pepperoni bagel bites are good.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I wonder at what point Nolan decided to abandon Joker's perma-whiteness, because I remember wayyyyy back when, when (I think it was Mirdanda Fox) was saying that she had been told Joker would be Perma-white.

It never really crossed my mind that he wouldn't until the first offical set pics started leaking out. I mean, the first Released picture of the Joker made him seem like he would be perma-white to me. You think Nolan was toying with the idea, or that he decided it would be makeup from the get-go?

 

[SheldonLevene]

I think it is exceedingly strange that this thread survived the release of the film. After seeing it 7 times I can honestly say I did not let the thought of un-permawhiteness (if thats a word) cross my mind in all my viewings. This is by all accounts the greatest superhero movie of all time, and the fact that the villain is not 100% accurate should not affect the way history views TDK. I'm not saying anyone on this page or recent pages for that matter is saying that, b/c I didn't read them. I'm just giving my 20 cents. Yeah thats right 18 cents more than the normal.

 

[nickyg641]

I wonder at what point Nolan decided to abandon Joker's perma-whiteness, because I remember wayyyyy back when, when (I think it was Mirdanda Fox) was saying that she had been told Joker would be Perma-white.

It never really crossed my mind that he wouldn't until the first offical set pics started leaking out. I mean, the first Released picture of the Joker made him seem like he would be perma-white to me. You think Nolan was toying with the idea, or that he decided it would be makeup from the get-go?

I don't know. It seems like all of the preliminary Joker concepts in the TDK Production Book were permawhite, so I would assume that makeup was a choice made a little later on.

I would hate to hear that it was simply a case of Nolan or someone going right off the bat "Well, obviously he's going to wear makeup, there's no other way." I'd like to think that some thought went into the change.

And, it is funny that you should mention it, because, you're right, it never really even occured to anyone that he might wear makeup. If anyone even mentioned it, they'd be ridiculed and poo-pooed off the board.

 

[gwynplaine]

I wouldn't want it in the comics but in the context of Nolan's movie, I think I prefer make-up.
Plus Nolan had the intelligence to never show the Joker apply his make-up a la the Crow, so it works great for me, probably my favourite Joker ever since Brian Bolland's and of course Bob Kane's, (even though we're talking different mediums.)

 

[gwynplaine]

Does anyone know what's up with that great Joker pic in the back of the car with his goon in the front, the "driving Miss Joker" pict: ? Is that a deleted scene or was it just a viral gift ?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Does anyone know what's up with that great Joker pic in the back of the car with his goon in the front, the "driving Miss Joker" pict: ? Is that a deleted scene or was it just a viral gift ?

its a deleted scene, its after the fundraiser at Bruce's penthouse

 

[gwynplaine]

its a deleted scene, its after the fundraiser at Bruce's penthouse

Cool, thank you.

 

[MrQuinn]

I wouldn't want it in the comics but in the context of Nolan's movie, I think I prefer make-up.
Plus Nolan had the intelligence to never show the Joker apply his make-up a la the Crow,

maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the Crow is seen applying his make up in the movie....I believe they were playing the Cure in the background, or it was the scene with NIN in the background when he jumps rooftops. Either way, it's shown.

 

[gwynplaine]

maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the Crow is seen applying his make up in the movie....I believe they were playing the Cure in the background, or it was the scene with NIN in the background when he jumps rooftops. Either way, it's shown.

I meant it was shown in the Crow, which was fine for that movie but I wouldn't have liked to see it done with the Joker in TDK, because it humanizes the character and it's been done before (to great effect in the Crow)

 

[MrQuinn]

I meant it was shown in the Crow, which was fine for that movie but I wouldn't have liked to see it done with the Joker in TDK, because it humanizes the character and it's been done before (to great effect in the Crow)

ah. gotcha, sorry for being an idiot.

 

[gwynplaine]

ah. gotcha, sorry for being an idiot.

You're not, no you're nott.t: My first post probably wasn't very clear.

 

[gwynplaine]

Just bringing this thread back for nostalgia sake. Also I'm glad the Joker was wearing make-up in TDK.

 

[Beanjuice]

Yeah,while i still want to see a completely comic accurate joker on film one day. Something new didnt hurt,and was really enjoyable