The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea Lovers & Madmen is quite a interesting take on Joker and Batmans relationship. Batman actually asks a gang to kill Joker because he feels there is no way to stop him without resorting to murder, but he doesn't want to be the one who does it.

 

[Doc Samson]

Ok,valid points except your forgetting one big thing......WE NEVER SEE OR HEAR ABOUT HIS TRUE ORIGIN. We dont know what made him the way he was. Certainly the scarring wasnt what set him off. But we dont know for sure

Exactly! That's been my point the whole time. No matter what really happened, the comic Joker was set off from the point of his chemical bath, before that, we don't know who he was, but it doesn't seem like he was a criminal. TDK Joker is robbing by the end of Batman Begins, and leaving the card. He was who he was within weeks of Batman showing up. That's a pretty quick turnaround for someone who was "normal" beforehand. We don't know what set him off because its a strong possibility that nothing did in the first place. Because maybe he's just crazy, period. People act as if unreasonable acts of crime aren't what make the Joker who he is. If you take away the one miniscule sympathetic aspect of his character, doesn't that make him even more of a nutjob in your eyes?

I mean TDK version has a couple scars and thats it. If that's enough to turn him into the Joker, he was unhinged in the first place, for quite a while, which to me, makes him a more vile character, because he has really no basis for it. He might've had those scars most of his life, if it was that catastrophic of an event, he should've been robbing and killing since grade school. Instead, he waits for Batman to appear, and starts a reign of terror without provocation. No one knows him or recognizes him, and he's on TV quite a few times, so its safe to say this didn't just take place recently or that he's even from Gotham. This Joker is the kind of evil that Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer personified. Cold, ruthless, and without reason. If that makes him like a "regular everyday serial killer" then I dare anyone to go hang out with some, since they must be so wimpy in comparison to a permawhite Joker.

The comic Joker, although reprehensible, has a pretty good reason to be insane. His life as a normal person was destroyed, you won't live a normal life at all if you were stuck as a permanent clown, unless your part of the circus. TDK Joker isn't stuck whatsoever, and to me, if you slap makeup on your face and kill hundreds of people willingly, just to do it, something's deeply wrong with you, and chemical baths and facial scars ain't the reason

 

[gwynplaine]

yeah, i dunnow about the jewel thief part but i do know he liked to announce that he "would murder someone before midnight," and of course it fell to Batman/Robin to save whoever it might be

Thanks for answering. Cool username.
Heath would have made a magnificent Rasputin.

Funny to think that the Joker started out as a jewel thief and that the Nolans did a 360 and made him an agent of chaos who really has no interest in money, the exact contrary, as explained by Alfred in his wonderful "Burma speech".

What a great evolution for the character. And they still brillantly reference Batman #1 and 2 (Joker first appearances) by bringing him back to his dark roots and at the police parade (and the announcement beforehand of murders to come).
I think TDK Joker is my favorite incarnation of the character (in all media) because it homages everything that came before, is still very much the Joker and at the same time brings a fresh approach (including the "make-up take").

 

[Rasputin911]

Thanks for answering. Cool username.
Heath would have made a magnificent Rasputin.

Funny to think that the Joker started out as a jewel thief and that the Nolans did a 360 and made him an agent of chaos who really has no interest in money, the exact contrary, as explained by Alfred in his wonderful "Burma speech".

What a great evolution for the character. And they still brillantly reference Batman #1 and 2 (Joker first appearances) by bringing him back to his dark roots and at the police parade (and the announcement beforehand of murders to come).
I think TDK Joker is my favorite incarnation of the character (in all media) because it homages everything that came before, is still very much the Joker and at the same time brings a fresh approach (including the "make-up take").

Ledger+Rasputin would equal amazing. I still hope they make a movie about the guy - magic or not, he was pretty fascinating

I would disagree that it was a "360" for the Joker's character though. Yes he was a thief in the golden age, but still wore clown makeup and massacred people for no apparent reason, so there was a lot of dark stuff beneath the surface. And he may not care about money in TDK, but he still loves to steal it

Ledger is also my favorite incarnation, tied with Frank Miller's in TDKR (just plain creepy). The new "Joker" graphic novel by Bermejo/Azzarello looks sweet though

 

[Rasputin911]

Yea Lovers & Madmen is quite a interesting take on Joker and Batmans relationship. Batman actually asks a gang to kill Joker because he feels there is no way to stop him without resorting to murder, but he doesn't want to be the one who does it.

i liked Joker in that story but hated Batman. If you want someone dead, do it yourself for christ's sake!

 

[ab38416]

Funny to think that the Joker started out as a jewel thief and that the Nolans did a 360 and made him an agent of chaos who really has no interest in money, the exact contrary, as explained by Alfred in his wonderful "Burma speech".

If I remember correctly, the original Golden Age Joker wasn't in it for the profit either. He would steal and collect the jewels for fun. I think he mentions it in the second story.

 

[gwynplaine]

If I remember correctly, the original Golden Age Joker wasn't in it for the profit either. He would steal and collect the jewels for fun. I think he mentions it in the second story.

Even better. Nolan said Batman # 1 and 2 were the template for TDK Joker, he is a man of his wordt:.

 

[nickyg641]

I'll present my final thoughts on the Joker wearing makeup (of course, in my reviving this thread, it's bound not to be really final.)

I thought the makeup worked fantastically in the film. It was just fascinating to look at, and was a genuinely interesting take on the character.

But my problem with it, the only problem. I'm fine with the Joker removing his makeup, because for him, he's just putting on another disguise. His makeup's his real face. But when he's in captivity, there's nothing stopping the authorities removing it. That, to me, isn't the same as the Joker taking it off himself.

They're effectively disarming him, exposing him, and in my mind, making him vulnerable.

 

[Solidus]

I'll present my final thoughts on the Joker wearing makeup (of course, in my reviving this thread, it's bound not to be really final.)

I thought the makeup worked fantastically in the film. It was just fascinating to look at, and was a genuinely interesting take on the character.

But my problem with it, the only problem. I'm fine with the Joker removing his makeup, because for him, he's just putting on another disguise. His makeup's his real face. But when he's in captivity, there's nothing stopping the authorities removing it. That, to me, isn't the same as the Joker taking it off himself.

They're effectively disarming him, exposing him, and in my mind, making him vulnerable.

Yet again, respectfully I will disagree with you my old friend. I think yet again it is a superficial look. Nothing can disarm the Joker. His insanity, his, just personality can never be stopped. Taking off his makeup, either it be by him, or some one else will not stop him being who he is.

And after watching the movies countless times. I still wonder if maybe he does have some skin problem on his face. Because, during the Mayor attempt, it seems like his face was still discolored. So he may be slightly stained on his face, and may be bleached a little bit. And some make-ups may have that effect, if you wear it too much, it kinda soaks in. But its funny that this is still going . I remember I gave the name to this thread

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I sorta agree with both of you here.
I like the idea that the make-up is Jokers real face, and when he removes it thats his mask, it is another thing that links him to Batman IMO. Batman is Bruce's real face, and the Bruce Wayne we see in public is his mask.

 

[Bathead]

I would disagree that it was a "360" for the Joker's character though. Yes he was a thief in the golden age, but still wore clown makeup and massacred people for no apparent reason,

I'm fairly certain Joker has been perma-white in the comics from the beginning. The only makeup he wore was when he went "undercover".

 

[Rasputin911]

I'm fairly certain Joker has been perma-white in the comics from the beginning. The only makeup he wore was when he went "undercover".

my bad. i meant to type "getup" but am so used to typing "makeup" on this thread that i slipped.

 

[nickyg641]

Yet again, respectfully I will disagree with you my old friend. I think yet again it is a superficial look. Nothing can disarm the Joker. His insanity, his, just personality can never be stopped. Taking off his makeup, either it be by him, or some one else will not stop him being who he is.

And after watching the movies countless times. I still wonder if maybe he does have some skin problem on his face. Because, during the Mayor attempt, it seems like his face was still discolored. So he may be slightly stained on his face, and may be bleached a little bit. And some make-ups may have that effect, if you wear it too much, it kinda soaks in. But its funny that this is still going . I remember I gave the name to this thread

In a way, I find it does. He chooses to wear his makeup, not soley to scare his victims, but because that's just who he thinks he is. When he's taking it off, he's not really taking it off, just putting on another layer, and there's a reason for it. It's to service his plan.

But when it's forcably removed, it's like he's having something taken away from him. It's not his choice, and, because the makeup is part of his persona, he's being partially de-Jokered.

And for that reason, from the point of view of an audience member, there's something different about seeing him disguised as a cop without his makeup, and what would be seing him in Arkham all scrubbed up. So that's something they would have to work around if they were to show him in a sequel.

I've always been partial to the idea that he refuses to eat until they give him his makeup, or Regwec's idea of a scene like this:
"Why has no one thought to wash that crap?"
"Ask the nurse whose fingers he bit off."

 

[gwynplaine]

Yet again, respectfully I will disagree with you my old friend. I think yet again it is a superficial look. Nothing can disarm the Joker. His insanity, his, just personality can never be stopped. Taking off his makeup, either it be by him, or some one else will not stop him being who he is.

And after watching the movies countless times. I still wonder if maybe he does have some skin problem on his face. Because, during the Mayor attempt, it seems like his face was still discolored. So he may be slightly stained on his face, and may be bleached a little bit. And some make-ups may have that effect, if you wear it too much, it kinda soaks in. But its funny that this is still going . I remember I gave the name to this thread

Good name.

 

[Judson Caspian]

One detail here is pretty interesting. Nolan claimed to have picked the look of his Joker, because the character was a mystery in Batman #1. There was no origin and Nolan thought it could be possible that makeup was involved. What he appearantly didn't know, or just ignored, was that both Batman #1 and Detective Comics #168 – where the Red Hood falls into a vat of chemicals – was written by the same writer, Bill Finger.

What does that mean? The Joker was permawhite in Batman #1. He never had any makeup in the comic book universe.

It can easily be proven just by looking at the last frame in Batman #1 where the entire upper body of The Joker is chalk white. In The Dark Knight only his face is white. But that's not news anymore.

 

[gwynplaine]

Halfway through Bermejo's Joker and I don't know if I like it yet. I like that the Joker has proportioned features but he is not incredibly charismatic so far. We'll see and I'm still happy to have some comic book Joker to help me through my TDK detoxt:.

 

[CaptainClown]

He is pretty funny if you ask me. He reminds me more like Frank Booth from Blue Velvet.

 

[gwynplaine]

Yeah, that's true. But like I said I'm halfway through and I'm not blown away so far like I hoped I would be (Heath was better).
Bermejoker is not very scary, just strangely detached (which I wouldn't mind if he was scarier and more charismatic). But I reserve judgement for when I am done reading.

 

[CaptainClown]

I dunno Bermejoker seems scary in a realistic sense. reminds me of the nuts I know combined. Heaths Joker didn't come off as scary as this Joker since this one is much more sadistic.

 

[gwynplaine]

Yeah, anyway I'll take that Joker over Lee's or Sale's any day (no pointy nose, no crazy teeth) because he feels more real and he is creepy.
Funny to think that Bermejo allegedly came up with the look of the character before TDK, just for that he probably deserves some kudos.

 

[nickyg641]

One detail here is pretty interesting. Nolan claimed to have picked the look of his Joker, because the character was a mystery in Batman #1. There was no origin and Nolan thought it could be possible that makeup was involved. What he appearantly didn't know, or just ignored, was that both Batman #1 and Detective Comics #168 – where the Red Hood falls into a vat of chemicals – was written by the same writer, Bill Finger.

What does that mean? The Joker was permawhite in Batman #1. He never had any makeup in the comic book universe.

It can easily be proven just by looking at the last frame in Batman #1 where the entire upper body of The Joker is chalk white. In The Dark Knight only his face is white. But that's not news anymore.

Yeah, I was among the first people to point that out a while back. Very interesting point.

 

[nickyg641]

One detail here is pretty interesting. Nolan claimed to have picked the look of his Joker, because the character was a mystery in Batman #1. There was no origin and Nolan thought it could be possible that makeup was involved. What he appearantly didn't know, or just ignored, was that both Batman #1 and Detective Comics #168 – where the Red Hood falls into a vat of chemicals – was written by the same writer, Bill Finger.

What does that mean? The Joker was permawhite in Batman #1. He never had any makeup in the comic book universe.

It can easily be proven just by looking at the last frame in Batman #1 where the entire upper body of The Joker is chalk white. In The Dark Knight only his face is white. But that's not news anymore.

Yeah, I was among the first people to point that out a while back. Very interesting point.

 

[gwynplaine]

Not to bleach, not to bleach. I love the make-up angle, for many different reasons but also the fact that it evolves from one scene to another, like an evil kaleidoscope reflecting the emotions of the character.

 

[Judson Caspian]

Yeah, I was among the first people to point that out a while back. Very interesting point.

If only Nolan would have acknowledged this and said something like:

"Yeah, well... white neck, white arms – not so realistic."

Then I would probably understand better the direction of the character. But he doesn't. Maybe on the bonus disc. It doesn't seem likely, though.

 

[MrQuinn]

I think the makeup aspect adds a little more to the "chaos" aspect of Joker's character in the film...his makeup, not once I believe, was too fresh looking in the film, meaning he wore it constantly, didnt shower, who know's when he put it on, etc....Granted there were times when the makeup looked a little more neat, like the party scene. He even had the makeup on UNDER the clown mask in the beginning for god's sake.... It really glimmered 'insanity', in my opinion, and i loved it.