The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[ronny]

The Batman Confidential origin is really a varient on the Jack Napier story, which is my favorite background for the character. Joker origins rest on him being either an innocent twisted out of shape by events, or a bad man turned into a monster by a kind of evil baptism. The latter has the most powerful purchase on my imagination.

Same here, I always liked Napier in '89 and the Jack character from Confidential is excellent despite some of the (well deserved) criticism that series gets. I do not doubt that the accident tipped him over the edge. But the issueI have is when comic writers suggest that he wasn't already there. By the point of the bleaching I really can't imagine him being a nice guy, perhaps he was already as bad as The Joker we all know but his little skin complaint made sure that he didn't need to remain masked anymore.
But hey, this is the reason we got the "multiple choice" line in The Killing Joke right? So we would never truly know who he was.
I'd love to see this idea taken further, so that even the Red Hood story could be in doubt.
In actual fact, I've always wanted a graphic novel where three or so writers take a stab at how The Joker came to be.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I actually have no preference between them, except for that Moore's variant is more in line with my philosophy on the Joker's character. I've not seen an interpretation of the Napier origin that imparts to Joker his view of the universe, as I've described it, the way it is imparted in TKJ. It could certainly be done, and now that I think about it, I'd really like to see that.

TKJ was brilliant in that it completely merged the psychology of the character, his philosophical wold view, and a relentless plot without any separation between them. The plot was Jokers dismal philosophy, and every response of the heros was their ideological argument.

Few stories can feed you the moral of the tale so seamlessly within the action.

 

[regwec]

Well, that's Alan Moore for you.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Well, that's Alan Moore for you.

Yes, not only is he a genius, but a vetted eccentric.

 

[itsthebatman]

I love TKJ, and Alan Moore. I don't understand people who don't like TKJ, I just don't get it .
*shakes head*

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I love TKJ, and Alan Moore. I don't understand people who don't like TKJ, I just don't get it .
*shakes head*

There are such people?

Bring them here!

 

[itsthebatman]

There are such people?

Bring them here!

I can't do that. You might get angry, and I don't want you to break your one rule.
Specifically, a fair few people hate the ending, with Batman laughing. I love it.

 

[regwec]

TKJ is a fantastic story, and anyone who fails to enjoy it should have their genitals attached to live wires. But it isn't my favorite imagining of The Joker's past. My dream comicbook would probably be Alan Moore's interpretation of the "Jack Napier" paradigm. Possibly featuring a Catwoman who looks a bit like Sienna Guillory. And Alfred's tasting notes for Petrus '61.

Something for everyone, m'thinks.

 

[itsthebatman]

TKJ is a fantastic story, and anyone who fails to enjoy it should have their genitals attached to live wires. But it isn't my favorite imagining of The Joker's past. My dream comicbook would probably be Alan Moore's interpretation of the "Jack Napier" paradigm. Possibly featuring a Catwoman who looks a bit like Sienna Guillory. And Alfred's tasting notes for Petrus '61.

Something for everyone, m'thinks.

Donald Rumsfeld? Is that you?

 

[regwec]

That's a known unknown.

 

[itsthebatman]

That's a known unknown.

That is a genuinely brilliant retort. So it's not Rumsfeld, then.

 

[regwec]

Heheh!

 

[Crook]

Specifically, a fair few people hate the ending, with Batman laughing. I love it.

I've had the chance to reread it, and I'm gonna have to agree with those that "hate" the ending. I mean, I totally get why Bats is laughing and it's significance, but it truly is so out-of-character that I really can't see it happening.

 

[regwec]

Which is presumeably one of the reasons Professor Sir Alan Moore KG QC Ma didn't want the story to form a cornerstone of DC comics continuity.

Like Arkham Asylum, it's important in terms of what it is trying to say about the nature of characters, rather than what could happen to them.

 

[StylishHokie21]

I've had the chance to reread it, and I'm gonna have to agree with those that "hate" the ending. I mean, I totally get why Bats is laughing and it's significance, but it truly is so out-of-character that I really can't see it happening.

Same here.

 

[itsthebatman]

True, Crook, but I agree with Regwec, it's what it says about Batman, his mentality, and the nature of his relationship with Joker, that is so great. I can let Bats away with the odd chuckle now and again. He deserves it, dontcha think?

 

[Crook]

Not with Joker.

Again, I "get" it. But if there was no reason to follow certain blueprints of the character, then a lot of times it kinda ruins the point of being an essential story.

 

[regwec]

As long as it's a disarming chuckle, rather than a scarily pervy Frank Miller style chuckle, which might occur if he discovered Leslie Thompkins had been sodomised by The Ultra Humanite.

 

[deathfromabove]

And Alfred's tasting notes for Petrus '61.

"...even though by 1982 it had matured quite nicely i felt it was largely overrated. this was the wine of the 20th century? i still prefer merlots bearing the vintage of 1959 to 61. and after opening a few choice bottles in the name of philanthropy at a tasting sponsered by the wayne industries book club in the fall of 1989 i felt the vineyard had topped itself since that crop..."


are you a big wine fan reg?

 

[itsthebatman]

I know you 'get' it, I'm not disputing that. I just feel that this out-of-character moment caps the story very well, and I don't think it does tremendous damage to Batman's character for him to laugh. Once.

 

[regwec]

are you a big wine fan reg?

I'm a fan of nearly all still-legal-bad-habits, from fine wine to internet message boards.

 

[Crook]

I know you 'get' it, I'm not disputing that. I just feel that this out-of-character moment caps the story very well, and I don't think it does tremendous damage to Batman's character for him to laugh. Once.

Well see, taken in the context of the entire story, it seems odd. If it was in any other story, then I might agree. But this is arguably one of Joker's most mischievous schemes. He's tortured Gordon, but not before paralyzing Barbara and violating her immensely.

Doesn't it seem juuuust a bit weird he'd laugh on the same day all this has occurred? Even after it's a joke?

 

[itsthebatman]

Well see, taken in the context of the entire story, it seems odd. If it was in any other story, then I might agree. But this is arguably one of Joker's most mischievous schemes. He's tortured Gordon, but not before paralyzing Barbara and violating her immensely.

Doesn't it seem juuuust a bit weird he'd laugh on the same day all this has occurred? Even after it's a joke?

Damn good joke, though.
But I think this is when he would laugh. It's been possibly the worst day of his career, and the release of his tension and grief in this manner is the only way he can get through this day.
IMO.

 

[Bat-Mite]

Well see, taken in the context of the entire story, it seems odd. If it was in any other story, then I might agree. But this is arguably one of Joker's most mischievous schemes. He's tortured Gordon, but not before paralyzing Barbara and violating her immensely.

Doesn't it seem juuuust a bit weird he'd laugh on the same day all this has occurred? Even after it's a joke?

That was always my problem with the ending. If it was one of the Joker's goofier pranks where hardly anyone was harmed, I could see Bats maybe having a laugh at one of his bad jokes. But not after he'd so brutally attacked two of Batsy's closest friends. I also thought the beginning of the story was awkward. Batman going to Arkham to have a heart to heart with the Joker? Wow. Don't get me wrong, I love TKJ. But while I think its characterization of the Joker was spot on, the characterization of Batman left something to be desired.

 

[Crook]

Damn good joke, though.
But I think this is when he would laugh. It's been possibly the worst day of his career, and the release of his tension and grief in this manner is the only way he can get through this day.
IMO.

I'll have to take a look at how he laughed, oddly enough.

I can see your explanation working if he gives one of those "heh, that was good one old chum!" type of laughs. But if it was one of those hysterical knee-slapping laughs...then no. Batman, I do not excuse that behavior.