The Dark Knight To Bleach or Not to Bleach? That is the Question

[Ace of Knaves]

yea thats why i hate the whole chemical bath thing, it adds sympathy to the Joker. oh some unfortunate soul fell into a vat of chemicals and came out a phychopathic twisted clown mass murderer, errrrrrr no.

 

[CaptainClown]

Again in lovers and madmen, Joker was a monster before and after the chem bath. It just gave him a theme to counter Batmans. Joker doesn't always have to be sympathetic just because of a chem bath. It is like the scars, he could have always been a monster the scars just added to the look.

 

[ronny]

Again in lovers and madmen, Joker was a monster before and after the chem bath. It just gave him a theme to counter Batmans. Joker doesn't always have to be sympathetic just because of a chem bath. It is like the scars, he could have always been a monster the scars just added to the look.

Exactly. That's the beautiful part of there being no fixed origin. But how is Batman positive that the man under the Red Hood was The Joker?

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

The biggest drawback to the makeup Joker is that in Arkham he will just be a guy with scars

Just a guy with a scar shaped smile, who looks, acts, talks, and is known as the guy who almost ripped Gotham apart. Who gets extra attention from guards for brutally killing police officers, etc.

He's not just a "guy" in Arkham.

... no green hair or purple suit or anything.

Well you don't get to wear your belongings when imprisoned, so there would be no purple suit anyway. And why need green hair to be the Joker? The audience would know it's the Joker, and so would the people within Arkham. You don't need green hair to distinguish him as the Joker in a cell.

The thing about Nolan's Joker was that he wasn't clinically insane.

Where do you get that from? LOL ... He's a mass murdering, psycophathic who dresses in clown makeup and slaughters people not just for a living, but for the pure enjoyment of it. Hangs out of stolen cop cars, like a dog riding in a car. Blows up police stations. Kills district attorney's, burns millions and millions of dollars in cash. Robs mob enforced banks for the thrill of it. Is not only sadistic, but masochistic.

We didn't see Joker sit down with a psychiatrist in the movie, but it's obvious the guy is clinically insane.

He was just very demented and evil.

Along with being nuttier than bat guano.

If he had a pathological need to have the white face etc. it would tip over into the "clinically insane" catagory. I could just see the psychiatrists jumping all over that and it would take away from his psychological power over others.

How would that make him clinically insane, but nothing else he's done not make him insane? That doesn't make a lick of sense. He could've already potentially self inflicted the vicious wound on his face. He applys clown makeup on to accentuate his look. He's insane. No ands / ifs about it.

The thing about this Joker that I find so strong, potentially stronger than the comic book Joker. Is that he understands the power of iconography. He isn't handed the look of a clown through fate. He truly is the opposite of Batman, and is inspired to create this vicious image of a killer crazy clown.

The only reason to make him perma-white in Arkham is to make us feel better about having the chalk faced, green haired villain we're used to at all times

What would honestly make you FEEL better about that? What need does having to see him be perma-white tape into? You'd know it's the Joker but the horrific cut on his face. You'd know it's the Joker based on his mannerisms and voice. In the movie, if there was to be a sequel with Heath Ledger as the Joker in a cell, there would've been no need. You KNOW it's the Joker without any of that crap.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

Again in lovers and madmen, Joker was a monster before and after the chem bath. It just gave him a theme to counter Batmans. Joker doesn't always have to be sympathetic just because of a chem bath. It is like the scars, he could have always been a monster the scars just added to the look.

I wouldn't call pre-Joker a "monster" yet before the chemical bath. He was a bad guy. I like the sense that psychologically he was lost and depressed. A talent he had at waist cause he was bored with it. But then Batman's theatrics took him to the next level, revived him, then the chem bath officially made him a monster. I thought Lovers and Madmen was a very good story, to be honest. With that said, I have no problem with Nolan's Joker not being permawhite. Because essentially there is no need for it at all, other then to please a few fans nutty problem of not being able to accept his look outside of how they only envision him to be.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

don't get lemon son, or i'll open you up like a can of baked beans!!!

I'm not salty, bruh ... it was just stupid and pointless.

but yea thinking about it now it is a pretty stupid idea, i think it would be quite interesting to see joker without make up anyway. i think the make-up is deffs part of the character, but i feel just his scars also represent the twisted clown persona.

Exactly. Permawhite doesn't define the character. As TDK so expertly shows. It has little to do with anything really. Joker is a stronger, more defined, and actually frightening character considering he does put on makeup and let it rot off. It represents the rotting structure of his twisted mind. Nolan's Joker truly is the flipside to Batman, in a way that doesn't make him tragic or sympathetic. But crazy and evil. He understand the extreme power of iconography and what it can do to instill fear in people.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea i also read a interview with Nolan or Goyer cant remember now, that said the Joker actually gets crazier as the film progresses, the make-up rotting away could also represent this.

 

[Saint]

Where do you get that from? LOL ... He's a mass murdering, psycophathic who dresses in clown makeup and slaughters people not just for a living, but for the pure enjoyment of it. Hangs out of stolen cop cars, like a dog riding in a car. Blows up police stations. Kills district attorney's, burns millions and millions of dollars in cash. Robs mob enforced banks for the thrill of it. Is not only sadistic, but masochistic.

No. Dressing like a clown does not make one insane. Being a sadist or a masochist does not make one in insane. Thrill seeking in unusual ways--like ripping of the mob or hanging out of moving cars--does not make one insane. Combining these does not make one insane.

The Joker certainly suffers from one or more mental disorders. Insanity is sometimes used as a blanket term for the mentally unsound, but this is usually avoided in medicine, in favour of more specific terms, as the word "insanity" is ill-defined and useless. Insanity is now, chiefly, a legal term. Legally speaking, to be insane one must not understand the consequences of one's actions, must not understand the right or wrong of one's actions, or must not be aware of one's actions. None of these apply to the Joker. The Joker is not insane, nor should he be. He is always aware and always in control.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

yea i also read a interview with Nolan or Goyer cant remember now, that said the Joker actually gets crazier as the film progresses, the make-up rotting away could also represent this.

Yes, this is physically represented in the makeup. And IDK about you, I mean great minds think alike (looks at avatar) ... that scene of him hanging out the cop car with rotting messy paint is one of the creepiest Joker images I've ever seen. Hanging out a stolen cop car, crazier than bat **** after just BLOWING UP a major GPD crime lab.

What was the most frightening image of the Joker in B89? Right after Viky Vale splashes water on his face and you can see the mixed flesh tones with the white make up and the paint is dripping.

It's disturbing. Joker wearing this makeup in TDK is no different. I definetely think it's way more frightening than some albino looking dude. And like I said, I think it is world's crazier for someone to conciously put on makeup and never remove it. It's like he sleeps in it and does everything in it. Only taking it off when he needs to be in disguise. This Joker doesn't accept his fate by falling in a chemical bath. He MAKES his fate, by choosing to be a murderous, psychopathic killer clown. Way more frightening.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

No. Dressing like a clown does not make one insane. Being a sadist or a masochist does not make one in insane. Thrill seeking in unusual ways--like ripping of the mob or hanging out of moving cars--does not make one insane. Combining these does not make one insane.

The Joker certainly suffers from one or more mental disorders. Insanity is sometimes used as a blanket term for the mentally unsound, but this is usually avoided in medicine, in favour of more specific terms, as the word "insanity" is ill-defined and useless. Insanity is now, chiefly, a legal term. Legally speaking, to be insane one must not understand the consequences of one's actions, must not understand the right or wrong of one's actions, or must not be aware of one's actions. None of these apply to the Joker. The Joker is not insane, nor should he be. He is always aware and always in control.

Hmm thanks for the short lesson or whatever, but yeah interesting take. I've heard it debated as such. Either the Joker to you can be "insane" or he can be viewed as the most rational person in the world. Which to me makes the character so interesting. One can view his actions as the act of a mad man. The other can say well he knows us as people better then we ourselves do ... so he's the ultimate rationalist.

But, I was replying to someone who said because Joker would be permawhite he'd be insane, where as because TDK Joker just puts on makeup ... he's just evil.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yes, this is physically represented in the makeup. And IDK about you, I mean great minds think alike (looks at avatar) ... that scene of him hanging out the cop car with rotting messy paint is one of the creepiest Joker images I've ever seen. Hanging out a stolen cop car, crazier than bat **** after just BLOWING UP a major GPD crime lab.

What was the most frightening image of the Joker in B89? Right after Viky Vale splashes water on his face and you can see the mixed flesh tones with the white make up and the paint is dripping.

It's disturbing. Joker wearing this makeup in TDK is no different. I definetely think it's way more frightening than some albino looking dude. And like I said, I think it is world's crazier for someone to conciously put on makeup and never remove it. It's like he sleeps in it and does everything in it. Only taking it off when he needs to be in disguise. This Joker doesn't accept his fate by falling in a chemical bath. He MAKES his fate, by choosing to be a murderous, psychopathic killer clown. Way more frightening.

haha yes our avatar is my favourite moment in the movie, when Gordon realises Joker wanted to be caught so he can get to Lau then it cuts to him hanging out of the cop car with that eerie silence. I think that silence isn't just to make it seem cool, but shows that the Joker doesn't give a toss about anyone or anything, its like he is in a little dream world, savouring every moment of it. its just so iconic, i could imagen it being used on them top 50 movie clip shows or summin.

yea i was saying this before the film even came out, it just shows how truly demented and horrific he is. Heres a guy who is hideosly disfigured but actually accentuates his deformities with the make-up. truly horrifying.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

No. Dressing like a clown does not make one insane. Being a sadist or a masochist does not make one in insane. Thrill seeking in unusual ways--like ripping of the mob or hanging out of moving cars--does not make one insane. Combining these does not make one insane.

With that said, Joker's actions in the film still could be viewed as him being insane.

It's like the difference in what some people consider to be "photographic memory" and what actual "photographic memory" is described as clinically.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i dont know, i wouldn't call him clinically insane because he clearly knows what he is doing is not normal or right. but he just doesn't give a monkeys about who he hurts as long as he gets his way, which could be considered a form of insanity. i think thats much more frightening than someone who doesn't know what they are doing is wrong. it all comes back to choices, Joker CHOOSES to be this.......thing. its quite admirable in a twisted way, his intentions, to him at least, are so clear and crystaline, he knows what he has to do and doesn't let anything, including morals, get in his way of achieving his goals.

 

[Saint]

With that said, Joker's actions in the film still could be viewed as him being insane.

If one wished to be incorrect, yes.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

Edited

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

So he's the ultimate sociopath?

Cause mob bosses themselves, their nature is sociopathic, and they too are sociopaths and they look like choir boys to the Joker.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

what is the definition of a sociopath? i'm not too knowledgable about these things.

 

[The Joker]

If one wished to be incorrect, yes.

So why does Batman think Joker should be in a padded cell?

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

If one wished to be incorrect, yes.

Why does every post I see of yours focus on people being correct or incorrect? What's with the holier than thou attitude all the time? You need to find an outlet in real life outside of these message boards, bro.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea i was under the impression there is many forms of insanity? one is that the person in question doesn't know wrong from right, another is that the person knows wrong from right but isn't bound by these feelings?

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

There is multiple meanings Ace of Knaves. There is alot of different theories in any kind of clinical field. Joker admittedly in The Dark KNight has conceeded to "madness" ... that definetely isn't "sanity" ...

 

[Doc Samson]

Yes, this is physically represented in the makeup. And IDK about you, I mean great minds think alike (looks at avatar) ... that scene of him hanging out the cop car with rotting messy paint is one of the creepiest Joker images I've ever seen. Hanging out a stolen cop car, crazier than bat **** after just BLOWING UP a major GPD crime lab.

What was the most frightening image of the Joker in B89? Right after Viky Vale splashes water on his face and you can see the mixed flesh tones with the white make up and the paint is dripping.

It's disturbing. Joker wearing this makeup in TDK is no different. I definetely think it's way more frightening than some albino looking dude. And like I said, I think it is world's crazier for someone to conciously put on makeup and never remove it. It's like he sleeps in it and does everything in it. Only taking it off when he needs to be in disguise. This Joker doesn't accept his fate by falling in a chemical bath. He MAKES his fate, by choosing to be a murderous, psychopathic killer clown. Way more frightening.

Thats been my exact stance on the whole idea from the beginning. The comic Joker did not choose to be that way, he's stuck like that, and Batman is partially responsible. TDK Joker can be normal if he wanted to, all kinds of people have scars much worse and lead a regular life. This Joker chose this path for whatever reason, and to me, is much more of a psychopathic maniac for doing so. He chooses Batman as the target of his viciousness, he doesn't have Batman to blame for his physical situation, like the comic Joker does. Not saying it makes it right, but it makes it a little understandable.

I also do believe the Joker is insane, anybody that can kill so freely is pretty nutty to me, it has nothing to do with his level of intelligence or his ability to strategize. I do agree with Saint to a certain extent that insanity is more or less used as a blanket term legally, but throughout history we've seen real life men who were smart and cunning and IMO, also insane. To me, it means mental instability, although not a pure scientific explanation. Psychotic, or outside of normal thinking, is what this Joker is all about.

Yeah, he maybe able to explain or come up with all these reasons for why he does what he does, but in the end, killing people isn't normal or rational or anything someone in their normal state of mind enjoys to do. Add to that, the manner in which he does it, theatrically, with the visage of a clown no less, and its apparent to me that he's not really normal at all. Depending on your views, you may feel he's the only one who makes sense, but therein lies the beauty of the character, and is one of the many reasons that he's the greatest villain of all time. It's also why he's correct on one thing, and that is the fact that Batman isn't so different after all himself...

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea i think he might not be insane in the clinical sense, but is deffinatly not sane !!!

 

[The Shape]

If one wished to be incorrect, yes.

Let's not do this again. The Joker is insane. If you don't think so, then you might be just as insane as he is.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Thats been my exact stance on the whole idea from the beginning. The comic Joker did not choose to be that way, he's stuck like that, and Batman is partially responsible. TDK Joker can be normal if he wanted to, all kinds of people have scars much worse and lead a regular life. This Joker chose this path for whatever reason, and to me, is much more of a psychopathic maniac for doing so. He chooses Batman as the target of his viciousness, he doesn't have Batman to blame for his physical situation, like the comic Joker does. Not saying it makes it right, but it makes it a little understandable.

I also do believe the Joker is insane, anybody that can kill so freely is pretty nutty to me, it has nothing to do with his level of intelligence or his ability to strategize. I do agree with Saint to a certain extent that insanity is more or less used as a blanket term legally, but throughout history we've seen real life men who were smart and cunning and IMO, also insane. To me, it means mental instability, although not a pure scientific explanation. Psychotic, or outside of normal thinking, is what this Joker is all about.

Yeah, he maybe able to explain or come up with all these reasons for why he does what he does, but in the end, killing people isn't normal or rational or anything someone in their normal state of mind enjoys to do. Add to that, the manner in which he does it, theatrically, with the visage of a clown no less, and its apparent to me that he's not really normal at all. Depending on your views, you may feel he's the only one who makes sense, but therein lies the beauty of the character, and is one of the many reasons that he's the greatest villain of all time. It's also why he's correct on one thing, and that is the fact that Batman isn't so different after all himself...

you're right in saying that, but Batman is responsible to a certain extent. i think joker was just a stick up guy ripping off the mob(as alluded in the interrogation). but when this mysterious "batman" came onto the scene it gave him the motivation to plan his reign of terror and embrace the "freak" persona.