Superman Returns Ugh! Watched STM then SR....

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

What is uplifting about seeing Superman realize he's just missed the first 4 years of his child's life, another man is raising his child as his own, his child thinks the other man is his real father, and that Superman cannot be a full-time everyday dad to his own son.

That to me is the opposite of uplifting. It's depressing, sad and the ultimate in irony. It's the worst nightmare for any parent.

As a responsible parent, I don't see how anyone could think this is uplifting. Please respond to the 'uplifting' elements of this ending.

If Superman didn't feel 'down' he obviously has yet to realize the full ramifications of what he has done. It is another example of SUperman being selfish if all he understands from this situation is that now there is someone else 'like him.' It does not take into account the greater veiw of the situation and the POV's of Jason and Richard, nor the aspects I outlined for Superman. This view of no longer being the only Kryptonian is one dimensonal and fails to address the broader ramifications of the situation.

It was uplifting to me because he had finally found someone he can truly connect with, he spent the whole movie feeling lonely, now he isnt. Not to mention the fact that he was still alive when he so easily could have died at the end.

 

[mego joe]

It was uplifting to me because he had finally found someone he can truly connect with, he spent the whole movie feeling lonely, now he isnt. Not to mention the fact that he was still alive when he so easily could have died at the end.

How is he not still lonely? Is Jason coming to live with him? Will he see Jason everyday? Will he rasie Jason as his own son? It seems like he went from a bad situation to worse. Now, he has someone 'like him,' but his son is being raised by another man? It is so close yet so far away. From a superficial understanding I can see what you are saying, but SUperman's not raising the child as his own and he won't be a regular everyday father to Jason. THat is Richard.

It is just such a one dimensional understanding of the situation. If all you see is the 'I've found another Kryptonian' angle, you're missing the big picture. If this is the only angle that Superman is aware of, he is viewing the situation selfishly. You don't have children just so you don't feel lonely. This points to a real misunderstnading of what it is to be a parent.

It also completely ignores the fact the he had already connected with Lois Lane before he left. I don't mean that to sound comical, but surely, if they were in love he and Lois had a connection. If they were in a sexual relationship then they, hopefully, had found meaning in each other's lives beyond a physical attraction. That is why it makes so little sense that he wouldn't communicate honestly with her before he left.

It then is laughable, he left the person he had a connection with to find others 'like him,' only to return and find that he had a child who was 'like him.' But he had a peson he connected with, whom he loved and loved him BEFORE he left. Therefore, he threw away his chance to have a life with someone with whom he already had a connection. If he had never left, he wouldn't have lost that connection with Lois. Or at least if he had been honest with her, she might have waited and been waitng for him with open arms upon his return.

The bigger picture overshadows any 'joy' that might be there in Superman finding someone 'like him.' Personally, I never really found that to be a strong theme in the movie. His loneliness seems to be based on the fact that he's lost Lois to another man. Finding other Kryptonians is never mentioned as a 'cure' for his lonliness, or even suggested, and the real conflict he seems to struggle with is not that there are no other Kryptonians 'like him,' but rather the woman he loves has moved on. Those seems like separate issues to me. Perhaps it's just poor movie making with all that stuff that was edited out. I don't know. But I don't think having another Kryptonian around is going to be a good substitute for losing the love of your life. He still doesn't have Lois. His love life is still unfulfilled and he will have to watch another man raise his child.

Additionally, I think Jason and Superman's situations are vastly different. Jason will grow up with his natural mother with him. He will grow up with Superman around to some degree, both of which are unlike Superman's own childhood. Jason is not the last of his kind. He's part human and part Kryptonian. There are plenty of other humans with whom he will be able to identify.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

How is he not still lonely? Is Jason coming to live with him? Will he see Jason everyday? Will he rasie Jason as his own son? It seems like he went from a bad situation to worse. Now, he has someone 'like him,' but his son is being raised by another man? It is so close yet so far away. From a superficial understanding I can see what you are saying, but SUperman's not raising the child as his own and he won't be a regular everyday father to Jason. THat is Richard.

It is just such a one dimensional understanding of the situation. If all you see is the 'I've found another Kryptonian' angle, you're missing the big picture. If this is the only angle that Superman is aware of, he is viewing the situation selfishly. You don't have children just so you don't feel lonely. This points to a real misunderstnading of what it is to be a parent.

It also completely ignores the fact the he had already connected with Lois Lane before he left. I don't mean that to sound comical, but surely, if they were in love he and Lois had a connection. If they were in a sexual relationship then they, hopefully, had found meaning in each other's lives beyond a physical attraction. That is why it makes so little sense that he wouldn't communicate honestly with her before he left.

It then is laughable, he left the person he had a connection with to find others 'like him,' only to return and find that he had a child who was 'like him.' But he had a peson he connected with, whom he loved and loved him BEFORE he left. Therefore, he threw away his chance to have a life with someone with whom he already had a connection. If he had never left, he wouldn't have lost that connection with Lois. Or at least if he had been honest with her, she might have waited and been waitng for him with open arms upon his return.

The bigger picture overshadows any 'joy' that might be there in Superman finding someone 'like him.' Personally, I never really found that to be a strong theme in the movie. His loneliness seems to be based on the fact that he's lost Lois to another man. Finding other Kryptonians is never mentioned as a 'cure' for his lonliness, or even suggested, and the real conflict he seems to struggle with is not that there are no other Kryptonians 'like him,' but rather the woman he loves has moved on. Those seems like separate issues to me. Perhaps it's just poor movie making with all that stuff that was edited out. I don't know. But I don't think having another Kryptonian around is going to be a good substitute for losing the love of your life. He still doesn't have Lois. His love life is still unfulfilled and he will have to watch another man raise his child.

Additionally, I think Jason and Superman's situations are vastly different. Jason will grow up with his natural mother with him. He will grow up with Superman around to some degree, both of which are unlike Superman's own childhood. Jason is not the last of his kind. He's part human and part Kryptonian. There are plenty of other humans with whom he will be able to identify.

I'm not missing any big picture, i understand the situation, its you who doesnt realise that Superman CANNOT be a proper father to Jason because in doing so he would endanger Jason's life. Imagine if the world knew Jason was Superman's son, EVERYONE, from the regular villains that show up to the government would want a piece of him and he would be harished and hunted for the rest of his life. Not to mention he would be a victim of many dastardly deeds.

Also, Superman WILL see him everyday, as Clark at the planet, and Superman reveal to Jason only that Clark is Superman.

Plus, Jason will be able to connect to Kal-El in a way even Lois could not, Jason will gain powers as he grows, he will feel like an outsider because of that just as Superman did, and Jason is half-Kryptonian also. Lois could never connect to Superman in this way, even thought they loved each a lot.

 

[Showtime]

What is uplifting about seeing Superman realize he's just missed the first 4 years of his child's life, another man is raising his child as his own, his child thinks the other man is his real father, and that Superman cannot be a full-time everyday dad to his own son.

That to me is the opposite of uplifting. It's depressing, sad and the ultimate in irony. It's the worst nightmare for any parent.

As a responsible parent, I don't see how anyone could think this is uplifting. Please respond to the 'uplifting' elements of this ending.

If Superman didn't feel 'down' he obviously has yet to realize the full ramifications of what he has done. It is another example of SUperman being selfish if all he understands from this situation is that now there is someone else 'like him.' It does not take into account the greater veiw of the situation and the POV's of Jason and Richard, nor the aspects I outlined for Superman. This view of no longer being the only Kryptonian is one dimensonal and fails to address the broader ramifications of the situation.

I didn't say the movie was uplifting, I said that personally I didn't feel down at the end and eitehr did Superman. I think he did realize his actions have consequences, I think that was the point, his character evolved. He realized that just because he is Superman things don't always work out the way he wants. I think he was content with the fact that he has a kid, and comfortable with the fact that Richard "is a good man" and a father to Jason.

I think the irony is in the fact he traveled 5 years to find a Kryptonian link and all along he was right on earth.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^More reasons it didnt get me down Showtime.

 

[Showtime]

^More reasons it didnt get me down Showtime.

I mean Superman did what he was supposed to, he protected Metropolis and in essence saved the world. He found out that he is not the last of the Kryptonian race and he is now content with his son being taken care of by two parents that love him. Things didn't work out the way he wanted, but nevertheless, they worked out. Superman changed, he evolved throughout the course of the movie.

 

[Dope Nose]

I mean Superman did what he was supposed to, he protected Metropolis and in essence saved the world. He found out that he is not the last of the Kryptonian race and he is now content with his son being taken care of by two parents that love him. Things didn't work out the way he wanted, but nevertheless, they worked out. Superman changed, he evolved throughout the course of the movie.

I wouldn't go that far. he only finds out about Jason in the last 20 minutes of the film.

 

[Showtime]

I wouldn't go that far. he only finds out about Jason in the last 20 minutes of the film.

I didn't say Jason was the direct reason for his change, you don't think finding out Lois has a fiance and a kid changed him?

 

[mego joe]

I'm not missing any big picture, i understand the situation, its you who doesnt realise that Superman CANNOT be a proper father to Jason because in doing so he would endanger Jason's life. Imagine if the world knew Jason was Superman's son, EVERYONE, from the regular villains that show up to the government would want a piece of him and he would be harished and hunted for the rest of his life. Not to mention he would be a victim of many dastardly deeds.

Also, Superman WILL see him everyday, as Clark at the planet, and Superman reveal to Jason only that Clark is Superman.

Plus, Jason will be able to connect to Kal-El in a way even Lois could not, Jason will gain powers as he grows, he will feel like an outsider because of that just as Superman did, and Jason is half-Kryptonian also. Lois could never connect to Superman in this way, even thought they loved each a lot.

The only person keeping SUperman from being a proper father to Jason is Bryan SInger by the way he was introduced. If Lois had known about Superman being Clark and they were in a relationship, there is no reason to think that they could not have a child to raise as their own. THe world would not know Superman had a child, only that Clark Kent had a child and that would not endanger the child. B/c the whole relationship between Lois and Superman is based on deception and Superman was unable to be honest with Lois, Superman cannot raise his son as his own. Sorry, that is sad and depressing.

As far as connecting, Jason will grow up with his biological mother, unlike Kal-El. The awkwardness will come from finding out that his father is really Superman and not Jason. If he grew up knowing Clark as his father and then learns at an appropriate age that Clark is Superman, he will not feel like an outsider. The only reason he WILL feel like an outsider in the stories as they are presented is because of the deception as to who his REAL father is.

If they really wanted to develop the idea that Superman feels alone and like an outsider b/c he is not human, they should have dealt with that in the movie. The movie is about Superman losing the love of his life. Not once does he indicate he is depressed and feeling alone b/c there are no other Kryptonians to relate to. He returns to Metropolis ready to start up where he left off, but he is shocked to learn of Lois's fiance and child. That is when he start being depressed and 'lonely.' He'd already lost Krypton years ago. The movie is not about being the only Kryptonian, it's about losing the love of his life and not being able to live a life with her.

 

[mego joe]

I mean Superman did what he was supposed to, he protected Metropolis and in essence saved the world. He found out that he is not the last of the Kryptonian race and he is now content with his son being taken care of by two parents that love him. Things didn't work out the way he wanted, but nevertheless, they worked out. Superman changed, he evolved throughout the course of the movie.

I didn't see it as contentment, but rather being resolved to the inevitability that he's screwed up so badly that he can't be an everyday father to Jason. Why else recycle Jor-El's dialogue that is delivered in a bitter-sweet moment when Jor-El realizes that his son's ONLY chance for survival is without him. That is the parallel in that final scene with Jason, right? I think Superman's speech is one of bitter-sweet understanding that the only way Jason will be able to be raised is without him. THere is no pure joy, whatever joy might be there in finding another Kryptonian is tinged with sadness at the knowledge that his own son will grow up with someone else as a father, thus the motivation for paralleling Jor-El's speech just before Kal-El is rocketed from Krypton.

He will never really be able to connect with Jason, he's not going to raise him, he's not going to be there everyday. He's not going to have that unconditional love that you get from your child, b/c Jason doesn't even know that Supreman is his father. How much of a connection do you have with someone else's child?

 

[mego joe]

I didn't say the movie was uplifting, I said that personally I didn't feel down at the end and eitehr did Superman. I think he did realize his actions have consequences, I think that was the point, his character evolved. He realized that just because he is Superman things don't always work out the way he wants. I think he was content with the fact that he has a kid, and comfortable with the fact that Richard "is a good man" and a father to Jason.

I think the irony is in the fact he traveled 5 years to find a Kryptonian link and all along he was right on earth.

Is Superman really an ironic character though? At least in terms of his actions and behavior as a man. I can see irony in the fact that he's an alien but just as human as you and I, but not in the situation presented here. This take on Superman really asks the viewer to believe that Superman is the type of person that doesn't know how to treat the ones closest to him though he can sacrifice himself for nameless millions. I think that is completely wrong. Maybe you see that as fundamental to the SUperman characeter, but I find it to be completely opposite of every other portrayal of the character.

 

[mego joe]

Also, Superman WILL see him everyday, as Clark at the planet, and Superman reveal to Jason only that Clark is Superman.

Seeing your child everyday in passing is not the same as raising your child in your home and experiencing all the incidental AND special moments of your child's life. Why is Jason going to be at the Planet everyday? Do your co-workers bring their kids to work everyday? He's not going to see much of Jason unless Lois makes it a point to get them together. Lois doesn't even know Clark as Superman, so she wouldn't have that as a reason to bring him around. It just doesn't make any sense to say that Superman will see Jason a lot, unless Jason finds out that Superman is his father.

Why would SUperman reaveal his identity only to Jason and not Lois? Why would SUperman reaveal his identity to any child? They don't understand the ramifications of revealing a secret identity? If Superman couldn't reveal his identity to Lois, an adult who is in love with him, why would he reveal it to a child? How careless would that be?

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The only person keeping SUperman from being a proper father to Jason is Bryan SInger by the way he was introduced. If Lois had known about Superman being Clark and they were in a relationship, there is no reason to think that they could not have a child to raise as their own. THe world would not know Superman had a child, only that Clark Kent had a child and that would not endanger the child. B/c the whole relationship between Lois and Superman is based on deception and Superman was unable to be honest with Lois, Superman cannot raise his son as his own. Sorry, that is sad and depressing.

As far as connecting, Jason will grow up with his biological mother, unlike Kal-El. The awkwardness will come from finding out that his father is really Superman and not Jason. If he grew up knowing Clark as his father and then learns at an appropriate age that Clark is Superman, he will not feel like an outsider. The only reason he WILL feel like an outsider in the stories as they are presented is because of the deception as to who his REAL father is.

If they really wanted to develop the idea that Superman feels alone and like an outsider b/c he is not human, they should have dealt with that in the movie. The movie is about Superman losing the love of his life. Not once does he indicate he is depressed and feeling alone b/c there are no other Kryptonians to relate to. He returns to Metropolis ready to start up where he left off, but he is shocked to learn of Lois's fiance and child. That is when he start being depressed and 'lonely.' He'd already lost Krypton years ago. The movie is not about being the only Kryptonian, it's about losing the love of his life and not being able to live a life with her.

Well i interpret the movie totally different than you do then!!!! IMO he went to Krypton to look for survivors AND because he felt like an outsider on Earth, Lois may have loved him, and made his life better, but she can never connect to him truly as he is not an earthling and he has an amazing power and responisibility that NO ONE else on earth has. Hence, HE WILL STILL FEEL LIKE AN OUTSIDER unless somelike grows up like he did, experiences his powers and the responsibilty required to use them. Jason will experience that, Lois NEVER will.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Seeing your child everyday in passing is not the same as raising your child in your home and experiencing all the incidental AND special moments of your child's life. Why is Jason going to be at the Planet everyday? Do your co-workers bring their kids to work everyday? He's not going to see much of Jason unless Lois makes it a point to get them together. Lois doesn't even know Clark as Superman, so she wouldn't have that as a reason to bring him around. It just doesn't make any sense to say that Superman will see Jason a lot, unless Jason finds out that Superman is his father.

Did you not wqatch the movie? Jason was at the planet vitually the whole time Clark was!

Why would SUperman reaveal his identity only to Jason and not Lois? Why would SUperman reaveal his identity to any child? They don't understand the ramifications of revealing a secret identity? If Superman couldn't reveal his identity to Lois, an adult who is in love with him, why would he reveal it to a child? How careless would that be?

Hhmmmm Superman may reveal his identity to Jason BECAUSE HE'S HIS SON! He could easily tell Jason to keep it a secret and i bet he would.

 

[Showtime]

Is Superman really an ironic character though? At least in terms of his actions and behavior as a man. I can see irony in the fact that he's an alien but just as human as you and I, but not in the situation presented here. This take on Superman really asks the viewer to believe that Superman is the type of person that doesn't know how to treat the ones closest to him though he can sacrifice himself for nameless millions. I think that is completely wrong. Maybe you see that as fundamental to the SUperman characeter, but I find it to be completely opposite of every other portrayal of the character.

I see every characterization of Superman in print, television, and film media as different. Every arc features a Superman with a subtle characteristic that adds to the lore. Superman changes but stays the same. I see Returns as an Elseworld story, just like every one of the Reeve films, which this was a continuation of.

 

[mego joe]

Did you not wqatch the movie? Jason was at the planet vitually the whole time Clark was!

Wow, how fulfilling, I get to see my child when his mother brings him to work. THat's not going to be a daily occurrance at any workplace. It was only a few situations we saw depicted in the movie. A newpaper office is not going to have little kids running around the whole time.

Hhmmmm Superman may reveal his identity to Jason BECAUSE HE'S HIS SON! He could easily tell Jason to keep it a secret and i bet he would.

How careless would that be? Revealing that secret to a 5 year old? THat's ridiculous. Jason would tell his parents immediately and anyone else he wanted to impress. Finding out that RIchard is not his real dad would only traumatize Jason. You really can't explain the situation until Jason is old enough to understand reproduction anyways.

 

[mego joe]

I see every characterization of Superman in print, television, and film media as different. Every arc features a Superman with a subtle characteristic that adds to the lore. Superman changes but stays the same. I see Returns as an Elseworld story, just like every one of the Reeve films, which this was a continuation of.

I don't think any of those Elseworlds stories fundamentally change the character the way SR does. The Donner films tweaked some of the details, but retained the essence of the character.

SR threw responsibility out the window in terms of Superman's character. THat is a fundamental difference that does more than change a subtle characteristic.

 

[mego joe]

Well i interpret the movie totally different than you do then!!!! IMO he went to Krypton to look for survivors AND because he felt like an outsider on Earth, Lois may have loved him, and made his life better, but she can never connect to him truly as he is not an earthling and he has an amazing power and responisibility that NO ONE else on earth has. Hence, HE WILL STILL FEEL LIKE AN OUTSIDER unless somelike grows up like he did, experiences his powers and the responsibilty required to use them. Jason will experience that, Lois NEVER will.

I suppose so. I think it's awfully strange that there could be such a vast difference in view of the point of the film. Perhaps that's becasue SInger did a horrible job in making the point clear. It is certainly unclear from the movie his motives for going to Krypton.

What elements of the film do you interpret as him feeling like an outsider? It seems like the whole film revolves around the fact that he's lost Lois and his place in he heart. He doesn't do anything to make me feel like being an outsider is his greatest concern.

No two people grow up exactly alike. Jason will have completely different issues b/c the man he's believed is his father really isn't. At some point Superman may be a help to him, but Jason will have bigger issues with Superman's absence from his like rather than relating positively to his absentee father.

 

[Showtime]

I don't think any of those Elseworlds stories fundamentally change the character the way SR does. The Donner films tweaked some of the details, but retained the essence of the character.

SR threw responsibility out the window in terms of Superman's character. THat is a fundamental difference that does more than change a subtle characteristic.

I don't see it that way, but we can agree to disagree. You're a good poster.

My opinion is that Donner and Singer are portraying Superman as an alien with human feelings. He "was raised as a human being", but he is still "not one of them." He has to juggle the good and bad attributes that come with being taught in the ways of a human. He is not a cold hearted alien like Brainiac, who things of people as "experiments".

If Singer's Superman wasn't responsible, what was Donner's? Lester's? Donner and Lester did more than tweak details, Superman gave up his powers for a love. He went against the wishes of his father and almost failed the entire world?

 

[X Knight]

well, I think the difference in our ( mine, mego's, and others like us ) opinion is this.......

Yes, the Donner / Lester Superman films ( Supes 1 and 2 ) did show a Superman with human feelings, who did act selfishly and irresponsibly, and who did make mistakes "of his own free will."

BUT, those movies, especially the new Donner Cut of S2, showed a Superman who REALIZED that he messed up, tried to RECTIFY his mistakes ( even if it meant Turning Back World or Amnesia Kiss ), and LEARNED from his mistakes ( "I'll never leave you again, Mr. President ).

And, there was a CLEAR, VISUAL indication of this, especially the Donner Cut scene where Superman is begging his father for help, admitting he messed up bad, and Jor-el sacrifices his energy to restore his son's powers.

THAT was a great scene.

IN SR, however, we never really got that CLEAR, VISUAL sense that Superman truly reflected on the mistakes he made and then tried to resolve them.

Sure, he told Lois he was sorry, and, true, he didn't find out Jason was his son until the end. But, that was also the problem, as it left alot of those issues unresolved.

So, I think for us who were dissappointed with SR, we never got that sense Superman was remorseful for all the pain he caused. maybe it was subtle, but it should have been more CLEAR.....

 

[Showtime]

well, I think the difference in our ( mine, mego's, and others like us ) opinion is this.......

Yes, the Donner / Lester Superman films ( Supes 1 and 2 ) did show a Superman with human feelings, who did act selfishly and irresponsibly, and who did make mistakes "of his own free will."

BUT, those movies, especially the new Donner Cut of S2, showed a Superman who REALIZED that he messed up, tried to RECTIFY his mistakes ( even if it meant Turning Back World or Amnesia Kiss ), and LEARNED from his mistakes ( "I'll never leave you again, Mr. President ).

And, there was a CLEAR, VISUAL indication of this, especially the Donner Cut scene where Superman is begging his father for help, admitting he messed up bad, and Jor-el sacrifices his energy to restore his son's powers.

THAT was a great scene.

IN SR, however, we never really got that CLEAR, VISUAL sense that Superman truly reflected on the mistakes he made and then tried to resolve them.

Sure, he told Lois he was sorry, and, true, he didn't find out Jason was his son until the end. But, that was also the problem, as it left alot of those issues unresolved.

So, I think for us who were dissappointed with SR, we never got that sense Superman was remorseful for all the pain he caused. maybe it was subtle, but it should have been more CLEAR.....

Superman not only apologized to Lois, he explained to her why he left, and also let her know what his life is like. "I hear everything..." He let Lois understand the responsibility of being Superman and how this responsibility wore on him, but now he realizes that it is indeed his reponsibility.

I understand your problem that Superman wasn't allowed to resolve the issues of fatherhood within the realm of the story.

 

[mego joe]

Superman not only apologized to Lois, he explained to her why he left, and also let her know what his life is like. "I hear everything..." He let Lois understand the responsibility of being Superman and how this responsibility wore on him, but now he realizes that it is indeed his reponsibility.

I understand your problem that Superman wasn't allowed to resolve the issues of fatherhood within the realm of the story.

I also think that in the Donner/ Lester film(s), Superman never treats being Superman as a burden. It becomes a challenge to decide between being super and being human, but he faces it with conviction and honesty. However, to me in SR, the whole "I hear everything bit" seems like he's going for pity from Lois. It also comes off as an excuse for having left, although it doesn't really make sense.

If as you say he's trying to let her know what his life is like, it seems that if they were in a sexual relationship they would have been over all this before. It seems like a real case of putting the cart before the horse in a relationship, and that is just the opposite of the way it was treated in Superman II. In that movie, all is on the table before they become involved. Perhaps, if Singer had been clearer on the context of their relationship before Superman left it would come off better, or at least more distinct without so many unresolved issues. It really seems like he skipped a whole movie before SR that needed to be told to really have a clear understanding of what's going on in SR. Personally, I can't imagine a scenario where Superman would be acting the way he does.

Lastly, I think the situation that SUperman put himself and Lois in is the kind of thing you can never really get redemption for. It is one of those life changing mistakes. A simple apology comes off as hollow and meaningless. "Gee, too bad you couldn't have said that before you left."

I think there are better ways to show Superman's humanity w/o making him the father of a child out of wedlock, an absentee father and an emotional weakling. Those issues of responsibility hurt those he is closest to. At least in Superman II, when he acts irresonsibly he is thinking of Lois. Those aspects of characterization are just polar opposites in my opinion.

Lastly, I don't think Donner's films were perfect or definitive of the character and I was really hoping for a Superman movie rooted more in the comics rather than the Donner films.

To me the biggest thing I would like to see done is have an origin that shows Clark making the decision to be Superman of his own volition with the guidance of his parents. It's been that way in every version of his origin. I've re-read the origins from Superman #1, 1939, Superman #53(I think, it's 1948), Byrne's Man of Steel and Birthright.

This is one aspect that is consistent in all of them. However, Donner has Jor-El as the guiding influence and raison d'etre for Clark being Superman. It works up to a point in Donner's films, but I think Jor-El's mandates also become an artificial conflict that is not necessary when it comes to having Superman choose to be human to be with Lois or stay super powered to be Superman. I know Donner was playing on a Silver Age theme of SUpreman not being in a serious relationship with Lois, but in the comics it was his own decision to do this in order to maintain his effectivenes and keep his focus on his role as Superman, a role he clearly believed to be the responsible and correct thing to do.

I think Singer has tried to extend this theme in SR, but his treatment of if just twists and warps the responsible and wholesome goodness of Superman's character into an unrecognizable 'bizarro' version.

 

[JamalYIgle]

I also think that in the Donner/ Lester film(s), Superman never treats being Superman as a burden. It becomes a challenge to decide between being super and being human, but he faces it with conviction and honesty. However, to me in SR, the whole "I hear everything bit" seems like he's going for pity from Lois. It also comes off as an excuse for having left, although it doesn't really make sense.

you really need to watch the Donner cut of Superman 2.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I suppose so. I think it's awfully strange that there could be such a vast difference in view of the point of the film. Perhaps that's becasue SInger did a horrible job in making the point clear. It is certainly unclear from the movie his motives for going to Krypton.

I think its made clear throughout the movie why he went to Krypton "I...thought......hoped.....it might still be there." The desperation in his voice and dissapointment at the outcome of the mission showed to me he was desperate to find Krypton still there.

Also "......but when astronomers thought they'd found it.....I HAD to see for myself." He had to see if it was still there, doesnt that sound like someone desperate to find others like him.

As for the rest of the paragraph i thought Singer did a great job with this movie.

What elements of the film do you interpret as him feeling like an outsider? It seems like the whole film revolves around the fact that he's lost Lois and his place in he heart. He doesn't do anything to make me feel like being an outsider is his greatest concern.

There is plenty of evidence of him feeling like an outsider to me:

The unconvincing way he says "I know" and the look he gives after Martha tells him "..even if you are the last....your not alone."

His eagerness to see Lois as soon as he returns to Metropolis

His gutted reaction to finding out Lois is heavily involved with someone and has a child (that he assumes isnt his).

His initial hesitancy to return as Superman when the plane/shuttle malfunctions on the news.

His desperation to explain to Lois and the world his reasons for leaving and not saying goodbye.

His smiling but obviously sad face when he observes a normal family life (admittedly at Lois' house).

His totally confused, then completely angry face when he realises that Jor-El's crystals are gone from the fortress and his father is possibly lost forever.

And most of all, his complete and utter joy at finding out Jason is his son and his immediate eagerness to see him.

Also, the sort of thankyou look he gives Lois right at the end.

No two people grow up exactly alike. Jason will have completely different issues b/c the man he's believed is his father really isn't. At some point Superman may be a help to him, but Jason will have bigger issues with Superman's absence from his like rather than relating positively to his absentee father.

No two people grow up the same, but no two people have super powers do they? Also people can grow up in similar circumstances and find a connection through that.

 

[mego joe]

you really need to watch the Donner cut of Superman 2.

I bought it and watched it the day it came out. What are you getting at?

I don't think it portrays being Superman as a burden, but as a responsiblitiy to embrace or choose to walk away from and be human.