Villains who should have never turned good

[Nokio]

Yes Magneto was never a major villain. :P

Was Magneto truly good?? Answer that? Did you see him performing heroic duties like say Thor? No. Yes Magneto did at some point join Xavier to help him run the school and work with Mutants, but Mags never went good on the level like FF or Cap.

 

[Nokio]

She wasn't evil evil. But neither was Juggernaut....yet people still complain about him going good.

I don't know that Magneto is completely evil on the level of Doom or Kang. Kang destroys worlds for the sport of conquest; because it amuses him, and because he can. Magneto is a traumatized jewish holocaust survivor, who's seen persecution of his people, and doesn't want to see another group he belongs to be persecuted; Mutants.

on the "Evil" scale, Kang, Doom and Loki would get 10s, Magneto would get about a 7 1/2, Juggernaut and Emma would (back when they were bad guy's) get about 3s or 4s.

A big part is I quit reading comics for 5 or so years in the 90s, and suddenly, not only was she good, she was an X-Man...

Agreed. Like I said I just don't consider Emma neither evil or a hero. She's a complex character with a morality issue. She cares, but doesn't let emotions stop her from doing what needs to be done. She likes power and wealth, which was the reason she was on board at the Hellfire club, as well as other issues. How many of us would be so different from Emma? I think she just puts hersels first and will switch sides so to speak to suit her needs.

I can't comment to much on Juggs. I don't know a lot of his back story except for the well known. I never knew exactly why he was on boad with the xmen all of a sudden. I didn't read what went down. He was thug who got power. I wouldn't call him evil neither. He hated Prof X and blamed him for his problems in life. Yeah he tussled with other heroes but Juggs has never been a major villian with complex plans and schemes. It matters not to me which side he's on. He been more so an underling or a d list villian.

I think both Emma and Juggs can do bad things but they aren't evil.

 

[Manic]

I never knew exactly why he was on boad with the xmen all of a sudden. I didn't read what went down. He was thug who got power. I wouldn't call him evil neither. He hated Prof X and blamed him for his problems in life.

Simply put, Juggernaut switched sides because he and Charles made up. Just after Cain's powers started to wane, the X-Men had to come to his rescue. They brought him back to the mansion, where he and Charles finally talked, had a good cry over daddy beating them, and finally buried the hatchet.

Like I've always said, Juggernaut is an old man. You can only hold a grudge for so long, when you're pushing 70.

 

[CombatRock319]

Doom isnt evil for the sake of evil. Doom loves conquest, control, and revenge. Theres nothing sadistic to his nature, the only thing evil about Doom are the methods he employs to gain his desires: revenge and power.
Juggernaut was never smart enough to be totally evil, and after Emma Frost saved the astonishing team's asses I felt that it was a heartfelt action of true heroism. She's ok in my book.
The problem is when they make characters who are so purely evil join the good side. Sabretooth. Mystique. Green Goblin. these are characters who are so evil that their turn to good refutes the psyches that made these characters so intriguing. If they need new heroes, they need to just create some, stop tapping into the awesome evils that made our heroes so classic.

 

[The Overlord]

Okay. I didn't really notice that, but whatever.



So that should dictate what I think would make a good story?



Which would make a quest for redemption on his part an interesting character arc.

Comic books are a business ultimately and they don't want to make stories that most readers would find unappealing. That's bad business.

Besides it doesn't matter if he was mental ill (you still haven't proven he is criminally insane) most of the characters wouldn't want hang out with him. Killing children is a huge stigma, in prison child killers have to kept away from the cons or they get killed. It doesn't matter if he was mental ill, that stigma does not go away. Yeah that would make for some great stories

Scarecrow: Hey Reed, I have reformed. Let's go fight Doom and then can I can baby sit your children some time.

Reed Richards: That's okay Scarecrow. Wow, wouldn't you know it, I have to wash hair tonight and every night for the next 20 years.

 

[The Question]

Comic books are a business ultimately and they don't want to make stories that most readers would find unappealing. That's bad business.

And I'm not talking about business. I'm talking about what I think would make a good story. Besides, where has it been stated that a vast majority of readers would refuse to buy a book where The Scarecrow was trying to reform?

Besides it doesn't matter if he was mental ill (you still haven't proven he is criminally insane) most of the characters wouldn't want hang out with him. Killing children is a huge stigma, in prison child killers have to kept away from the cons or they get killed. It doesn't matter if he was mental ill, that stigma does not go away. Yeah that would make for some great stories

Yes, it would make for some great stories. I wouldn't expect every Marvel character to welcome him with open arms and just forget about the past. I'd expect there to be conflict, and people hating him while he tries to make amends. That could be a very good story.

 

[The Overlord]

And I'm not talking about business. I'm talking about what I think would make a good story. Besides, where has it been stated that a vast majority of readers would refuse to buy a book where The Scarecrow was trying to reform?



Yes, it would make for some great stories. I wouldn't expect every Marvel character to welcome him with open arms and just forget about the past. I'd expect there to be conflict, and people hating him while he tries to make amends. That could be a very good story.

Common sense says most people wouldn't like it. Why don't we just have a reformed Green Goblin, Purple man or Bullseye while we are at it. This is fiction and in fiction when a character crosses line they should stay in the villain camp, making them heroes or supporting cast would be stupid. Characters who have no redeeming qualities and commits the most brutal crimes imaginable, making them into heroic or even reformed characters would be illogical and bad story telling that would go against everything we knew about the characters before that point.

That is why it wouldn't make for a good story.

 

[The Question]

Common sense says most people wouldn't like it. Why don't we just have a reformed Green Goblin, Purple man or Bullseye while we are at it. This fiction and in fiction when a character crosses line they should stay in the villain camp, making them heroes or supporting cast would be stupid. Characters who have no redeeming qualities and commits the most brutal crimes imaginble, making them into heroic or even reformed characters would be illogical and bad story telling that would go against everything we knew about the characters before that point.

That is why it wouldn't make for a good story.

So, in other words, you're just assuming that no one would like it.

Anyway, it's called character developement. You know, when you take a character and have them grow and change in some positive and/or negative ways. Green Goblin or Bullseye reforming wouldn't work, simply because they're too popular amung fans for a genuine stab at redemption to be a success. Maybe giving them a few redeeming or admirable qualities would, but people would still want them to be amoral killers. These days, I'd say the same for Purple Man. But Scarecrow's perfect for that. He's a lesser known character who most people are probably indifferent to.

Besides, this arguement is a tad pointless: Scarecrow is now working for the Government and is an Initiative recruit.

 

[The Overlord]

So, in other words, you're just assuming that no one would like it.

Anyway, it's called character developement. You know, when you take a character and have them grow and change in some positive and/or negative ways. Green Goblin or Bullseye reforming wouldn't work, simply because they're too popular amung fans for a genuine stab at redemption to be a success. Maybe giving them a few redeeming or admirable qualities would, but people would still want them to be amoral killers. These days, I'd say the same for Purple Man. But Scarecrow's perfect for that. He's a lesser known character who most people are probably indifferent to.

Besides, this arguement is a tad pointless: Scarecrow is now working for the Government and is an Initiative recruit.

Well I bet if you asked most people on this board if they want an ex-child killer as a heroic character, most would say no.

You forgot Purple man, should they make him into a hero.

Wait second, you argued against Trapster reforming before because he killed some drug dealer, but Scarecrow can reform after killing a baby?

Besides Scarecrow already has character developed, he went from goofy villain to evil psychotic monster. That is where the development should say, to reform him would go against the previous development.

Also the fact the government is employing guys like Gobby, Bullseye and Scarecrow shows that they are completely stupid.

 

[Kitsune]

Was Magneto truly good?? Answer that? Did you see him performing heroic duties like say Thor? No. Yes Magneto did at some point join Xavier to help him run the school and work with Mutants, but Mags never went good on the level like FF or Cap.

By that argument (or lack thereof) none of the X-Men are heroes.

 

[Manic]

By that argument (or lack thereof) none of the X-Men are heroes.

Saving the world doesn't count as heroism, anymore?

 

[Kitsune]

Saving the world doesn't count as heroism, anymore?

Apparently not, if Magneto is doing it.

 

[The Question]

Well I bet if you asked most people on this board if they want an ex-child killer as a heroic character, most would say no.

I'd bet that most would be indifferent, myself.

You forgot Purple man, should they make him into a hero.

I mentioned Purple Man. I personally wouldn't care if he did or not, depending on how well it's written, but odds are it wouldn't happen because he's much too popular these days.

Wait second, you argued against Trapster reforming before because he killed some drug dealer, but Scarecrow can reform after killing a baby?

Different arguements, my friend: The Trapster, who is legally sane and a wanted criminal, would be unable to make a stab at reforming simply because he's still wanted for his crimes. It might be an interesting story if he tried to, but he wouldn't be able to make a life for himself, at least not using the name of Peter Petruski, because he is on the run. Under an alias, perhaps. Scarecrow, on the other hand, is insane, and seemed fairly dillusional in the last story I read with him in it, so probably legally insane. If he were cursed of his insanity, then he could be released back into the world and try to make amends. Obviously, plenty of people would still hate him, and folks like The Punisher or Scourge would try and kill him, but as long as he didn't commit another crime, the police wouldn't be looking for him.

Besides Scarecrow already has character developed, he went from goofy villain to evil psychotic monster. That is where the development should say, to reform him would go against the previous development.

Yeah, but he's a fairly unused character, and hasn't been looked at with any depth in ages. Wouldn't hurt to take a stab at having him regain his sanity.

Also the fact the government is employing guys like Gobby, Bullseye and Scarecrow shows that they are completely stupid.

Not completely. People are capable of being inteligent in some ways and stupid in others. Especially when we're talking about a government as big as America's, which is made up of thousands of people.

 

[KangConquers]

Simply put, Juggernaut switched sides because he and Charles made up. Just after Cain's powers started to wane, the X-Men had to come to his rescue. They brought him back to the mansion, where he and Charles finally talked, had a good cry over daddy beating them, and finally buried the hatchet.

Like I've always said, Juggernaut is an old man. You can only hold a grudge for so long, when you're pushing 70.

Exactly...That's why I liked him going good. It was two brothers making up...it made a lot of sense.

 

[Anubis]

You know, Osborne actually could, reform. As far as I know he's still got that whole split personality thing going on. It's just that the Goblin persona's been in control ever since, well, ever since freakin' Gwen Stacy got offed. (Killed, not "got off" )

 

[The Question]

You know, Osborne actually could, reform. As far as I know he's still got that whole split personality thing going on. It's just that the Goblin persona's been in control ever since, well, ever since freakin' Gwen Stacy got offed. (Killed, not "got off" )

I thought his psychological problems with closer to schizophrenia than a split personality, and his inability to remember his crimes was just him blocking out the memories because he couldn't deal. Now, he's come to accept his inner homicidal maniac.

 

[PhotoJones]

You know, Osborne actually could, reform. As far as I know he's still got that whole split personality thing going on. It's just that the Goblin persona's been in control ever since, well, ever since freakin' Gwen Stacy got offed. (Killed, not "got off" )

Osborn's evil. It's got nothing to do with his Goblin persona. Both his personalities are less than noble. The Goblin identity just fuels what's already there.

 

[Anubis]

Maybe, maybe not. Osborne was a business man. He screwed people over here and there, but what successful business man hasn't right?

Besides, what is a crazy person if not somebody who doesn't have that thing in their head that tells, them "Hey! You shouldn't do that."?

 

[The Question]

Besides, what is a crazy person if not somebody who doesn't have that thing in their head that tells, them "Hey! You shouldn't do that."?

It's a bit more complex than that. Some have that, but they're perception and awareness of their actions is so skewed that they do bad anyway.

 

[Anubis]

Maybe I generalized it too much. In the case of Osborne, he developed another persona that's devoid of conscience. Now if he had done the kinda stuff he's doing now as the Goblin, before the gas, and the explosion and the crazy, then I'd say you guys were right. The Worst I think he's done as Osborne was when he screwed the Tinkerer out of some doe or something, and that's about it. That's a pretty big leap from being a dirty suit, to putting on a rubber mask and throwing chicks off bridges. Unless theres something you know he's done that I don't.

 

[PhotoJones]

Maybe I generalized it too much. In the case of Osborne, he developed another persona that's devoid of conscience. Now if he had done the kinda stuff he's doing now as the Goblin, before the gas, and the explosion and the crazy, then I'd say you guys were right. The Worst I think he's done as Osborne was when he screwed the Tinkerer out of some doe or something, and that's about it. That's a pretty big leap from being a dirty suit, and putting on a rubber mask and throwing chicks off bridges. Unless theres something you know he's done that I don't.

He screwed the Tinkerer out of a female deer?

 

[The Question]

He screwed the Tinkerer out of a female deer?

That sounds nasty.

 

[PhotoJones]

Anubis is a nasty dude.

 

[Anubis]

He screwed the Tinkerer out of a female deer?

At least it wasn't his tea with milk and bread.

That sounds nasty.

Prude.

 

[PhotoJones]

Prude.

Deviant, predator.