Villains who should have never turned good

[Nokio]

As we all know, there's always been a trend in comics of turning villains good; redemption is a cornerstone of hero comics, dating back to Hawkeye, the Silver Surfer etc. But sometimes, characters just should not turn good.

I love Emma Frost as a character. She's manipulative, she's sexy, she's intelligent. But am I the only one who still finds her being a good guy incredibly forced, 13 years later? I loved The White Queen when I was young because she was incredibly unlikeable and cruel, serving as a foil to the noble X-Women such as Storm. her being a hero still bothers me years later.

So which villain turned hero bothers you the most?

Well I can't agree with you. I like her better as a hero, although i don't really put her as hero. She's doing what she can to help mutants. Frost was never a main villian, she was never behind any major schemes. She was part of the Hellfire club and was a tool for Shaw. He was always the main villian. Frost did show up in some titles doing the solo thing, but she was never as i recall doing terriable things like say Doom, Magneto, Kang, Loki and so forth. I remember her showing up in the New warriors to reclaim Firestar, but that's it. She was an underling and nothing more.

I'm sure you've read Emma's back story and it really does explain her character a lot and give you a better understanding of her. Again even though Emma is with the Xmen she's just not what I consider a hero. Ms Marvel is a hero, Wasp is a hero, Photon is a hero, She hulk is a hero, but Frost is more so doing what she can to help and protect mutants.

Getting technical about it the Xmen themselves has never been what I would call heroes. They do protect Mutant kind and fight for mutants rites, so i can see why they are seen as heroes to some, but teams I call real heroes are The Avengers, JLA, heck even The Authority. These guys do everyday saving of the planet and protecting it for major threats, while the smaller guys like spiderman protect the local public. The Xmen are always fighting other bad mutants who is bent of destroying them or taking something from them, or the Government or mutant hating orginazations. Yeah the Xmen has helped to save the planet at times, but it's been few and far between.

 

[Nokio]

I guess i would say Sabretooth or Juggs, but no real major villian has ever gone good.

 

[Manic]

Getting technical about it the Xmen themselves has never been what I would call heroes. They do protect Mutant kind and fight for mutants rites, so i can see why they are seen as heroes to some, but teams I call real heroes are The Avengers, JLA, heck even The Authority. These guys do everyday saving of the planet and protecting it for major threats, while the smaller guys like spiderman protect the local public. The Xmen are always fighting other bad mutants who is bent of destroying them or taking something from them, or the Government or mutant hating orginazations. Yeah the Xmen has helped to save the planet at times, but it's been few and far between.

What, really? Because they protect the mutant community, they don't count as real heroes? Racist.

Seriously, though, the X-Men don't just fight for other mutants. They've always been about protecting humans just as much as mutants. They've saved the Earth multiple times. Other planets, as well. Asgard, too. Then there's the multiple timelines they've saved. They didn't always fight for mutant rights. Sometimes they fought because it was the right thing to do.

Not to mention the fact that I'm sure some teenager with green skin somewhere who was saved from an unruly mob considers the X-Men heroes.

 

[Hypestyle]

I'm way late to the party, but I have to chime in:

Juggernaut
Sandman (though of course, he's back to bad.. I guess)

 

[Damiean Dark]

I read that somewhere he is back to full power yes, i pray he is evil again you cant beat him crashing into the X mansion and kicking all thier asses

 

[Anubis]

From the way he was acting during that last ish of WWH X-Men, he's back to his roots of fighting for the sake of fighting. Not evil per say. He's likely not to go robbing any banks anytime soon.

 

[The Overlord]

Part of the problem with Sabretooth was that he was supposed to be an "evil Wolverine" during a time when Wolverine battled his inner rage and tried not to kill everyone he faced to sort of strive for some sort of Zen. Those sorts of stories haven't been done much in a decade so ever since Creed became "guy who slaughters innocent or good people as well as occasionally the usual soldier types" and Wolverine became "guy who kills bad people whenever he can". And then of course the 90's were full of big ideas like giving everyone a series who had any sort of fame, which included some of the figures here (Venom, Sabretooth) and usually readers can't root for stars who are total villains.

In terms of Venom, I actually liked the Lethal Protector bit when I was in Junior High. Years later, I see it as something that as an idea had potential, but in execution was botched. The main reason being, just because Venom decided to go out and fight crime doesn't mean he couldn't have been there to fight Spider-Man. His defense of "the innocent" could have included, say, deeming Gwen Stacy an "innocent" and blaming Peter for that because it was his webline. Even not, Spider-Man shouldn't have just done a collective shrug with Venom. He could have fit into that gray zone where Punisher is. But instead it was botched and overdone and Venom as a character has never been the same since, and in a way he was far better off a villain. I mean they had to shove Gargan into the symbiote because they felt Brock was so dead-end.

My issue with the Thunderbolts is they took a lot of reliable B and C listers off the table and no effort was made to replace them. Now that the book stars Ellis' psycho squad it seems even more pointless.

Juggernaut also had more punch as a villain then yet another megaton hero. He was a contrast of Xavier, back when writers wanted to actually write him as a moral person.

I disagree most of the villans that became T-bolts in 97 were total goobers before that. Are there any great Screaming Mimi stories before 97 or did they ever explain why Beetle was a villain in the first place? I think most of those characters better as t-bolts because as villians they either sucked or made nosense. Seriously how many times can a jewel thief with a gimmick get his butt kicked by Spidey before he gets sick of it and quits?

In real life some criminals reform and others don't. Its kinda nice that marvel has a mixed bag in that regards.

But there villians who will never reform:

Purple Man a psychopathic rapist. Bullseye wil never reform, he is not hero, he is psychopath on a government leash. Scarecrow is a child killer, so he is out. Frankly anyone who iis a serial killer/rapist/child killer type will not reform.

There are tons of B-list villains who reform: Controller is too much of a psychopath, Ghost is too much of an ideologue, typhoid mary is hopelessly insane, etc. i like when villains have reasons for being villains. This why I don't characters like the trapster, IMO, there was no reason for him to be a villain in the first place.

 

[The Question]

Purple Man a psychopathic rapist. Bullseye wil never reform, he is not hero, he is psychopath on a government leash. Scarecrow is a child killer, so he is out. Frankly anyone who iis a serial killer/rapist/child killer type will not reform.

Why? There are people in the real world who have psychological disorders that lead them to murderous acts and are eventually cured of them. Scarecrow is obviously legally insane, but he could get treatment. In theory, anyway.

 

[The Overlord]

Why? There are people in the real world who have psychological disorders that lead them to murderous acts and are eventually cured of them. Scarecrow is obviously legally insane, but he could get treatment. In theory, anyway.

Yeah do you think anyone would want to see a super hero Scarecrow, after they find out he killed a mother and her baby in the 80s? In real life a guy like Scarecrow would be locked away forever or put to death, so why should he become a civilian or even a hero?

That's like making a movie where Ted Bundy is a hero.

 

[The Question]

Yeah do you think anyone would want to see a super hero Scarecrow, after they find out he killed a mother and her baby in the 80s? In real life a guy like Scarecrow would be locked away forever or put to death, so why should he become a civilian or even a hero?

That's like making a movie where Ted Bundy is a hero.

No, The Scarecrow is obviously insane under the legal definition. In real life, he'd be sent to a mental institution to receive treatment. Besides, having a character with sins to atone for has been a staple of fiction for centuries.

 

[The Overlord]

No, The Scarecrow is obviously insane under the legal definition. In real life, he'd be sent to a mental institution to receive treatment. Besides, having a character with sins to atone for has been a staple of fiction for centuries.

You can prove he can't tell the difference between right and wrong? What does he have?

Besides its not like he robbed bank or something, he is a child killer, most readers don't want an ex-child killer as a hero or a supporting cast member.

 

[3dman27]

that is CORRECT overlord

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Ex-child killers are so oppressed.

 

[KangConquers]

Well I can't agree with you. I like her better as a hero, although i don't really put her as hero. She's doing what she can to help mutants. Frost was never a main villian, she was never behind any major schemes. She was part of the Hellfire club and was a tool for Shaw. He was always the main villian. Frost did show up in some titles doing the solo thing, but she was never as i recall doing terriable things like say Doom, Magneto, Kang, Loki and so forth. I remember her showing up in the New warriors to reclaim Firestar, but that's it. She was an underling and nothing more.

I'm sure you've read Emma's back story and it really does explain her character a lot and give you a better understanding of her. Again even though Emma is with the Xmen she's just not what I consider a hero. Ms Marvel is a hero, Wasp is a hero, Photon is a hero, She hulk is a hero, but Frost is more so doing what she can to help and protect mutants.

Getting technical about it the Xmen themselves has never been what I would call heroes. They do protect Mutant kind and fight for mutants rites, so i can see why they are seen as heroes to some, but teams I call real heroes are The Avengers, JLA, heck even The Authority. These guys do everyday saving of the planet and protecting it for major threats, while the smaller guys like spiderman protect the local public. The Xmen are always fighting other bad mutants who is bent of destroying them or taking something from them, or the Government or mutant hating orginazations. Yeah the Xmen has helped to save the planet at times, but it's been few and far between.

She wasn't evil evil. But neither was Juggernaut....yet people still complain about him going good.

I don't know that Magneto is completely evil on the level of Doom or Kang. Kang destroys worlds for the sport of conquest; because it amuses him, and because he can. Magneto is a traumatized jewish holocaust survivor, who's seen persecution of his people, and doesn't want to see another group he belongs to be persecuted; Mutants.

on the "Evil" scale, Kang, Doom and Loki would get 10s, Magneto would get about a 7 1/2, Juggernaut and Emma would (back when they were bad guy's) get about 3s or 4s.

A big part is I quit reading comics for 5 or so years in the 90s, and suddenly, not only was she good, she was an X-Man...

 

[Kitsune]

I guess i would say Sabretooth or Juggs, but no real major villian has ever gone good.

Yes Magneto was never a major villain. :P

 

[The Question]

You can prove he can't tell the difference between right and wrong? What does he have?

He seems to be pretty obviously dillusional to me.

Besides its not like he robbed bank or something, he is a child killer, most readers don't want an ex-child killer as a hero or a supporting cast member.

Why not? It'd make for great character stuff.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It worked in Little Children. Kind of. Nah, not at all. Forget I said anything.

 

[The Overlord]

He seems to be pretty obviously dillusional to me.



Why not? It'd make for great character stuff.

Most of the people on this board have already said they don't want an ex-child as a hero or a supporting cast member. In a market like this the majority rules. Besides there is certain lines a character crosses after which they become completely unlikeable, child killing is one of those lines.

 

[Abaddon]

maybe he wouldn't have to be a "hero" per se, but a man seeking redemption for things he's done that are unforgivable.

 

[KangConquers]

maybe he wouldn't have to be a "hero" per se, but a man seeking redemption for things he's done that are unforgivable.

The World needs some villains though who are just plain bad.

 

[Abaddon]

The World needs some villains though who are just plain bad.

The world doesn't. Comics maybe.

and there are already plenty of those. Apocalypse, Kang, Doom, etc

 

[The Question]

Most of the people on this board have already said they don't want an ex-child as a hero or a supporting cast member.

Okay. I didn't really notice that, but whatever.

In a market like this the majority rules.

So that should dictate what I think would make a good story?

Besides there is certain lines a character crosses after which they become completely unlikeable, child killing is one of those lines.

Which would make a quest for redemption on his part an interesting character arc.

 

[KangConquers]

The world doesn't. Comics maybe.

and there are already plenty of those. Apocalypse, Kang, Doom, etc

Kang is a teenager now...Apocalypse is getting ***** slapped by Celestials...Magneto is depowered...Zemo is a Thunderbolt

At least we have Doom and Red Skull.

 

[The Question]

Kang is a teenager now...Apocalypse is getting ***** slapped by Celestials...Magneto is depowered...Zemo is a Thunderbolt

At least we have Doom and Red Skull.

I really don't see Doom as a villain who's pure evil. I mean, he's a nasty bastard, and he plays the part of the villain more often than not, but he's fought on the side of the Angels before, and he's proven that he is in fact an effective and, relatively speaking, kind ruler.

 

[KangConquers]

I really don't see Doom as a villain who's pure evil. I mean, he's a nasty bastard, and he plays the part of the villain more often than not, but he's fought on the side of the Angels before, and he's proven that he is in fact an effective and, relatively speaking, kind ruler.

True. Though there are parralel's between the men (hell they might be related), Doom is nowhere near Kang in terms of the vicious monarch category.