Superman Returns Was Superman Returns the perfect movie?

[Angeloz]

But is hard to watch. I liked what it was trying to say though.

Angeloz

 

[SuperDaniel]

I agree with MegoJoe. THe concept of Superman IV was the best of all 5 films. THe CONCEPT. About Nuclear Disarmament. Not the movie itself. It was really like Superman Peace on Earth. Imagine if it was taken that seriously with great special effects?

The movie itself sucked but the story behind it, probably the part written by Chris Reeve, was really good, i thought. The execution sucked, of couse, as did Luthor`s plan, Lenny and the special effects. But it had a good heart. Superman speaking at the UN and the final speech, etc.

 

[Angeloz]

As I said I loved the Junior Novel of "Superman IV" that's why it was such a blow watching it.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I have the video too of "Batman & Robin" because it was heavily discounted and I wanted to see how bad it was (before we had DVD). I'll admit I don't really remember it much and I'm very thankful of that fact. I've only seen it once. I might one day watch the commentary with the director because I've heard he apologises. I got the Batman film tin with the four films. I haven't got around to watching them though. I almost wish I remembered enough to debate how bad the film was. But I can't. I will say it's the only Batman film I never saw in the cinema in the past 20 years (we never got "The Mask of the Phantasm" unfortunately but we got it on video and DVD thankfully). I'm glad I skipped it. Urgh.

I think if you watch Batman and Robin and think of it as a version of Batman from the late fifties you can enjoy it on some level, but for what we as fans want today it just misses the mark and badly.

By the way what little I remember of the sixties show I like. I used to love it as a kid. I got to see some of it again as a teenager. But they haven't shown it in the past ten years and unfortunately it'll probably never be on DVD unless two companies finally agree to make money from them. But from what I can remember it was much better than the film. Even with the camp. Because it had more than that (I grant you it's been awhile though).

Angeloz

The movie is available here on DVD for cheap, like $10. I still watched episodes I taped of the TV series when I was in high school. My kids, 9 and 4 love it. That IS Batman to them. WHen I was their age that WAS Batman to me also.

 

[mego joe]

Assume you're only including live action.
Ever see "Superman and the Mole Men"? The George Reeves feature film.
In some ways considering your take on the character, and your rule of thumb, it might make #1.
It's FX are understandably hokey, but it's portrayal of The Man of Steel sure fits our bill.

I sure have. I didn't include it b/c it's barely an hour in length and I really didn't consider it a 'feature' fim though it was released as such. I would definitely give it a 7.5 or 8 overall. It's portrayal of Superman is excellent though. Phyllis Coates is also my favorite Lois.

I wasn't including animated films you are correct. I was just focussing on live action for this series of ratings.

 

[mego joe]

I agree with MegoJoe. THe concept of Superman IV was the best of all 5 films. THe CONCEPT. About Nuclear Disarmament. Not the movie itself. It was really like Superman Peace on Earth.

Actually both those stories harken back to an older Superman comic, "Must THere Be A Superman." It explores some of the same themes, specifically SUperman's relationship to the world and how much good he can actually do IF people aren't accepting of it.

Imagine if it was taken that seriously with great special effects?

The movie itself sucked but the story behind it, probably the part written by Chris Reeve, was really good, i thought. The execution sucked, of couse, as did Luthor`s plan, Lenny and the special effects. But it had a good heart. Superman speaking at the UN and the final speech, etc.

It really missed the boat. Nuclear Man should have been Bizarro (see outtakes on the DVD featuring Lex's first attempt at cloning Superman) and he should have wanted to help Superman but actually messed things up worse and then sacrificed himself in the end.

Lenny was just stupid and had no place in the film.

 

[Angeloz]

I'll also admit I loved the sixties Batman series as a kid. I think I'd like it now as well for other reasons (entertainment mainly). Don't they repeat it where you live?

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I'll also admit I loved the sixties Batman series as a kid. I think I'd like it now as well for other reasons (entertainment mainly). Don't they repeat it where you live?

Angeloz

I don't watch a lot of TV, mostly PBS, but I don't think it is currently in reruns anywhere where I live. A few years ago it was on TV Land, as was The Adventures of Superman starring George Reeves.

It is still fun and enjoyable to watch for me.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It's funny you should say that because I thought his facial expressions were fairly poor. Particularly, in lacking that steely-eyed look of grim determination that Reeve had, the signature look that made him definitive as Superman IMO. The closest Routh came to it was when he was lifting NK, but to be honest, he just looked constipated to me at that point.

I don't know if you read my review (I posted it in one of the threads), but one thing I mentioned in there was that I can definitley see the potential in Routh to play a really good Superman, but I think he needs a few years to brush up his skills first.

I thought his facial expression were perfect, they told more of the story or his feelings at that point than his lines did IMO.

I'll be honest, I don't recall the American version, I have the DVD of the longer International Version. It's not horrible, it's fun and harmless stuff.

As for being harsh, it isn't a surprise is it? I've actually gone up a notch from a 0 to a 1 to account for the fact that it does look pretty. People like what they like. I'm sure I'm one of the few that likes Daredevil as much as I do. Here's the full list. Films not listed I haven't seen. I think I remember all the films I've seen, but I could be forgetting something.


Overall Ranking
Batman Begins 9.5
Spider-Man 9.0
Spider-Man II 9.0
The Rocketeer 8.5
The Phantom 8.5
Daredevil: The Director’s Cut 8.5
Superman: The Movie 8.0
X2: X-Men United 8.0
Daredevil 8.0
Spider-Man III 8.0
Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut 7.5
Batman (1989) 7.5
Batman Forever 7.5
Superman II 7.0
Batman Returns 7.0
Swamp Thing 7.0
X-Men 7.0
X-Men 3: The Last Stand 7.0
V for Vendetta 7.0
Ghost Rider 7.0
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer 6.5
Batman (1966) 6.0
Fantastic Four 5.0
Elektra 5.0
Superman IV: The Quest for Peace 4.0
Supergirl 4.0
Superman III 3.0
The Hulk 3.0
Batman and Robin 2.5
Superman Returns 1.0

I have never said this about one of your posts before MJ, but SR being below B&R is ridiculous.

I have told you i hate X3 more than you hate SR, but i wouldnt even put X3 below B&R.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Actually both those stories harken back to an older Superman comic, "Must THere Be A Superman." It explores some of the same themes, specifically SUperman's relationship to the world and how much good he can actually do IF people aren't accepting of it.


It really missed the boat. Nuclear Man should have been Bizarro (see outtakes on the DVD featuring Lex's first attempt at cloning Superman) and he should have wanted to help Superman but actually messed things up worse and then sacrificed himself in the end.

Lenny was just stupid and had no place in the film.

I have read that one, a great story.

 

[El Payaso]

I have never said this about one of your posts before MJ, but SR being below B&R is ridiculous.

He's trying to be dramatic.

 

[mego joe]

I thought his facial expression were perfect, they told more of the story or his feelings at that point than his lines did IMO.



I have never said this about one of your posts before MJ, but SR being below B&R is ridiculous.

I have told you i hate X3 more than you hate SR, but i wouldnt even put X3 below B&R.

It's all about taste. ANd like I said above. BandR may be bad, but SR feels wrong.

 

[buggs0268]

SR and was Bryan's attempt to make a chick flick masqeruading as a Superman film. Superman Doomsday, with it's flaws, is still lightyears ahead of SR.

 

[Angeloz]

Rub it in you get it before us ("Superman: Doomsday").

Angeloz

 

[Papa Burgundy]

FOr the record, here's my assesment of the Superman films on an out of 10 scale.

Superman: The Movie 8.0
Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut 7.5
Superman II 7.0
Superman IV: The Quest for Peace 4.0
Superman III 3.0
Superman Returns 1.0

Supergirl 4.0


It's not so much that SIV was 'good' it was just better than III and SR, but still far off the pace of S:TM and both versions of II.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOUR STILL KILLING ME!!!

 

[Papa Burgundy]

I'll be honest, I don't recall the American version, I have the DVD of the longer International Version. It's not horrible, it's fun and harmless stuff.

As for being harsh, it isn't a surprise is it? I've actually gone up a notch from a 0 to a 1 to account for the fact that it does look pretty. People like what they like. I'm sure I'm one of the few that likes Daredevil as much as I do. Here's the full list. Films not listed I haven't seen. I think I remember all the films I've seen, but I could be forgetting something.


Overall Ranking
Batman Begins 9.5
Spider-Man 9.0
Spider-Man II 9.0
The Rocketeer 8.5
The Phantom 8.5
Daredevil: The Director’s Cut 8.5
Superman: The Movie 8.0
X2: X-Men United 8.0
Daredevil 8.0
Spider-Man III 8.0
Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut 7.5
Batman (1989) 7.5
Batman Forever 7.5
Superman II 7.0
Batman Returns 7.0
Swamp Thing 7.0
X-Men 7.0
X-Men 3: The Last Stand 7.0
V for Vendetta 7.0
Ghost Rider 7.0
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer 6.5
Batman (1966) 6.0
Fantastic Four 5.0
Elektra 5.0
Superman IV: The Quest for Peace 4.0
Supergirl 4.0
Superman III 3.0
The Hulk 3.0
Batman and Robin 2.5
Superman Returns 1.0

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HE DID IT AGAIN!

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

It's all about taste. ANd like I said above. BandR may be bad, but SR feels wrong.

Come on though MJ, its not a worse movie than B&R

 

[mego joe]

Come on though MJ, its not a worse movie than B&R

BUt it is. I can't even watch it and enjoy it on any level. I can at least watch B and R and enjoy it in the same manner I enjoy the sixties Batman TV show. Yes, SR IS that bad and for more than one reason. In the end it's all about taste, right?

If I can't even watch it, if it felt like watching a train wreck the first time through, if I felt sick to my stomach sitting through it, it sounds pretty bad to me.

LIke I've said, B and R may be bad. It may be stupid. But SR feels wrong.

THe lack of cohesive backstory in SR kills any chance of it giving the characters any depth. WHile there's not much depth in B and R, it's not really trying to have a lot of depth, but SR desperately wants to be that kind of film and Singer totally missed the boat with the 'vague history' angle and forcing the audience to invent reason his story was plausible.

THe rehashing of the Donnerverse and the use of S:TM as a scene by scene template is boring.

THe pace is WAY too slow.

Luthor plot is even more boring than MR. Freeze's plan to freeze Gotham city.

SR is absolutely atrocious in my eyes. B and R is only a bit better. But it's better enough that I can watch it.

That's the dividing line. Can I watch it?

 

[mego joe]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HE DID IT AGAIN!

I'm glad you're so entertained by my insightful list of comic book movie ratings, what about some of the other films on the list?

 

[Angeloz]

I must admit it shocks me anyone that has some intelligence (I think you do mego joe) and likes the character(s) can rewatch "Batman & Robin". Unless they forgot how bad it was. I don't know if I can.

Angeloz

 

[Mr. Socko]

Superman Returns was far from perfect, but good production design, cinematography, and special effects as well as all around technicality certainly makes it 5/10 at least. Another point because Kevin Spacey was terrific and throw in one more because they handled Superman/Lois relationship well, so that brings it to a 7/10 in my view.

 

[mego joe]

I must admit it shocks me anyone that has some intelligence (I think you do mego joe) and likes the character(s) can rewatch "Batman & Robin". Unless they forgot how bad it was. I don't know if I can.

Angeloz

And I feel the same way about SR. Superman = dead beat dad? No,it just isn't right. And you know I'm not going with some technical definition of deadbeat dad right?

There's just no justification of plausibe/ believable story which is in character for Superman for the events of SR to have taken place. That is far worse than a remix of the Batman TV series which is essentially what B and R was/ is.

My system of rating films is like this.

Overall enjoyment.

(for comic films) Adherence to source material. First in characterization, tone and spirit and then in plot. ANd lastly accurate physical representation if the characters themselsves.

Next is general story, good, interesting, does it make sense.

Technical aspects of filmmaking.

In considering SR, I don't give any points until you get to technical aspects of filmmaking.

 

[mego joe]

double post

 

[mego joe]

Superman Returns was far from perfect, but good production design, cinematography, and special effects as well as all around technicality certainly makes it 5/10 at least. Another point because Kevin Spacey was terrific and throw in one more because they handled Superman/Lois relationship well, so that brings it to a 7/10 in my view.

You're far too generous in your assesment of SR. It sounds like you like it? I thought you didn't like it?

But seriously, how can you like the SUperman/ Lois relationship, but not like

The only thing that was out of character was Superman not being there for the kid, or even realizing he and Lois had conceived one. Just about everything else was in character of Supes. People with the stalking stuff are just going out on a limb to find something to piss about, and this is coming from someone who didn't even like Returns much.

When this is essentially the result of the Superman/ Lois relationship?

So you like that SUperman and Lois were involved sexually and she didn't know he was CLark? THat was handling their relationship well?

 

[Angeloz]

And I feel the same way about SR. Superman = dead beat dad? No,it just isn't right. And you know I'm not going with some technical definition of deadbeat dad right?

There's just no justification of plausibe/ believable story which is in character for Superman for the events of SR to have taken place. That is far worse than a remix of the Batman TV series which is essentially what B and R was/ is.

My system of rating films is like this.

Overall enjoyment.

(for comic films) Adherence to source material. First in characterization, tone and spirit and then in plot. ANd lastly accurate physical representation if the characters themselsves.

Next is general story, good, interesting, does it make sense.

Technical aspects of filmmaking.

In considering SR, I don't give any points until you get to technical aspects of filmmaking.

I thought you would say something like that about "Superman Returns". I think one of the things that destroyed the Batman film to me was the treatment of Mr Freeze. Especially when he was done very well as a tragic figure in the animated series. I just hated that he was treated as a joke. I'll admit it's pretty vague now (my memory of the film). So can't comment on other travesties they did. I believe there's Bane and others.

Ironically that source material thing could be argued with mego joe. I think you know how so will spare you (hint: El Payaso and the first two films).

Angeloz