Was watching B89 again...

[RobC]

Hahahaha. Love that, but it's true.

Also true that the officials were incompetent. It was a mixture of incompetence and good old fashioned gangster cleverness that kept Grissom out of trouble.

 

[Cain]

Keep in mind, it seemed like he had only been Batman for a short period in the movie too. Batman was still considered a myth to some in Gotham

Word but on the flipside in the last movie Batman took down the city's greatest crime boss on his first day in the suit. Uh oh I've throw wood into the fire now

Seriously though this is something I thought about as far back as I could remember if Grissom had high ranking cops like Eckhardt in his back pocket who's to say he didn't have politicians and other city officials paid off as well. After all why else would the mayor go through trouble to bring in a new DA to the city and all that. It's a possibility that the last one was corrupt. I'm glad there is no clear cut answer though, I hate spoonfed cinema.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

Burton's Batman films certainly entice thought. The questions left unanswered keep many fans coming back to watch them.

 

[RobC]

There is a hell of a lot implied through simple semiotics and by a clever script in the Burton movies, but a problem with a lot of it is that most people don't get it. Not starting a BB spoonfeed debate here, just saying that a hell of a lot of really un-obvious stuff is left to the viewer.

 

[Cain]

^ if it doesn't work for some it just doesn't work personally as a pretty imaginative film goer I absolutely love subtext in my movies. I think it suits Batman brilliantly too because the comics themselves never seem to elaborate on many things. There is a certain element of mystique within the mythos that I value a great deal.

Burton's Batman films certainly entice thought. The questions left unanswered keep many fans coming back to watch them.

True indeed that's part of what makes them timeless.

 

[RobC]

Yeah I mean, I count myself as one who can read subtext, well with my degree in film and tv production currently in it's 1st year I hope I can! But seriously, there was a lot that was left to the viewer. I guess it's more of a Year Two to BB's Year One almost.

 

[Mr. Socko]

Alas, the question here is why didn't Batman apprehend Grissom...along the same lines as he did Falcone in Begins?

I can only imagine Batman was more interested in going after the men who committed Grissom's crimes instead of Grissom himself. Or maybe he was trying to find Grissom's whereabouts, it's never stated otherwise, we're just not shown.

There's really nothing that points to any side of the argument or speculation in the film so we'll never have a right answer, all we can do is stab at a guess or go with whatever we like best- which is really what I love about the movie. What we don't see we patch together ourselves.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Yeah I mean, I count myself as one who can read subtext, well with my degree in film and tv production currently in it's 1st year I hope I can! But seriously, there was a lot that was left to the viewer. I guess it's more of a Year Two to BB's Year One almost.

I would call it a year 4 or so B89 batman/bruce is a more troubled soul then BB the obsession and duality have really taken hold by then imo.

 

[RobC]

Yeah i'll give you that, it's a lot later in his career as Batman, yet obviously very early in terms of being in Gotham. For instance, he has the cave, the suit, the car, the know-how, the skills, the gadgets, everything.

However he doesn't have any friends, allies etc... B89 really shows Bruce Wayne how he should be, totally alone. Even Gordon doesn't trust him...

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

He was establishing his urban legend status among street criminals, certainly; he was still pretty new. Grissom and Napier seemed unaware of him at that point; Grissom was mostly concerned about Harvey.

But I think it's pretty safe to say that Batman probably had Grissom in his crosshairs. He seemed aware of Napier, certainly.

But yeah, most likely he was going for a slow, methodical burn through the criminal underworld. In Begins, he kind of does the opposite - going right for the big cheese on his first night out, making as big a splash as possible.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Yeah i'll give you that, it's a lot later in his career as Batman, yet obviously very early in terms of being in Gotham. For instance, he has the cave, the suit, the car, the know-how, the skills, the gadgets, everything.

However he doesn't have any friends, allies etc... B89 really shows Bruce Wayne how he should be, totally alone. Even Gordon doesn't trust him...

Gordon doesn't trust him, Vicki is frightened of him, and Alfred thinks he's going to get killed. I love it.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

But yeah, most likely he was going for a slow, methodical burn through the criminal underworld.

I don't think it's even that. It's more straight forward. Napier hit Axis Chemicals, therefore Batman turned up to spoil the party. In the movie, Batman is more of a street crime vigilante, he turns up when he can find someone red handed with an ass that needs kicking.

 

[RobC]

Yeah he only went for Napier 'cause of Axis, he just turns up at crime scenes and sorts it out, he doesn't seem to be targeting anyone in particular.

B89 shows a lot about his sense of alienation in the world he's in, BB showed it differently, he almost shuns the help in BB, in B89 it pure doesn't exist...

 

[Mladen]

B89 shows a lot about his sense of alienation in the world he's in, BB showed it differently, he almost shuns the help in BB, in B89 it pure doesn't exist...

? I'm not sure you've seen the film??
Rewatch B89 and tell me he doesn't express alienation, its pretty much the driving force behind his character (when he's not Batman, he sits in his mansion with no other purpose but to brood). He doesn't have to say, "I am alienated", its entirely implied by his wierd dialogue (that 'this isn't exactly a normal world is it' line is a good example). The fact that he invites a date over to his house to have dinner in an enormous dining room should be another clue. That, and how strange he acts during the party.

 

[RobC]

Um, read what I just said, you know the bit where I say 'B89 shows a lot about his sense of alienation'

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I really think he was interested in Napier. I just got that impression, especially when he says to Alfred "I just found out Jack Napier's still alive." I don't think he would've had the same reaction had he seen Johnny Gobs walking around all of a sudden. And this is before he's even realized the dangerous extent of Napier's new life.

 

[RobC]

I dunno, to me he turns up at Axis because of the police, not because of Napier. But you know, thats just my opinion...

 

[LyleHeckendorf]

i've had a similar situation tonight like the thread starter, when they re-ran Batman Returns on the tele. i hope its okay to ask my questions here although its not B89, i didnt want to create an extra thread -

there are two things i never really got when watching BR before and which really stuck out to me tonight -

1. when did Batman figure out Penguin's lair being the abondoned zoo and how did he and Alfred already know about Penguin's ultimate improv plan with the armed penguin army when Batman is approaching the lair with his boat? the penguins had just begun swarming out and Alfred already had tracked them...

2. the remote Batman produces in the battle with Penguin triggers (apparently) both the missiles and the breakaway panel releasing the bats from the boat (its depicted that way in the shooting draft as well)
so did Batman anticipate Penguin's reaction and 'brought backup' in the form of bats?

what do you guys think, are both things simple plot holes / laziness in the writing department for the sake of convenience and forcing the developments needed for the climax, or did i miss something there? i tend to think of it as the former, but i'm interested in other thoughts.
thanks.

 

[Mladen]

Um, read what I just said, you know the bit where I say 'B89 shows a lot about his sense of alienation'

ah, misread you. thought that didn't make a whole lot of sense
still, how do you mean no help offered in B89? what about alfred?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

i've had a similar situation tonight like the thread starter, when they re-ran Batman Returns on the tele. i hope its okay to ask my questions here although its not B89, i didnt want to create an extra thread -

there are two things i never really got when watching BR before and which really stuck out to me tonight -

1. when did Batman figure out Penguin's lair being the abondoned zoo and how did he and Alfred already know about Penguin's ultimate improv plan with the armed penguin army when Batman is approaching the lair with his boat? the penguins had just begun swarming out and Alfred already had tracked them...

2. the remote Batman produces in the battle with Penguin triggers (apparently) both the missiles and the breakaway panel releasing the bats from the boat (its depicted that way in the shooting draft as well)
so did Batman anticipate Penguin's reaction and 'brought backup' in the form of bats?

what do you guys think, are both things simple plot holes / laziness in the writing department for the sake of convenience and forcing the developments needed for the climax, or did i miss something there? i tend to think of it as the former, but i'm interested in other thoughts.
thanks.

It's not exactly laziness per se.....Burton is the opposite of Nolan when it comes to explaining Batman's methods and equiptment. Nolan will show you why he has it, where it comes from and what it does. Burton just shows you it.

 

[LyleHeckendorf]

yes, i know, that is one of the reasons why i love the Burton movies so much, BR in particular. yet, i didnt 'see' anything in the film that would answer my questions, so what are your thoughts on the lair and the bats?

 

[The Joker]

I dunno, to me he turns up at Axis because of the police, not because of Napier. But you know, thats just my opinion...

I think the fact that he heard Gordon say "If we get our hands on him we can get Grissom", was also a big incentive to go to Axis.

 

[Catman]

organised crime worked because those highest in the food chain always keep their hands clean. They conduct crimes under the guise of regular business practice and social get togethers. you still need proof to charge somebody with a crime.

Batman WAS doing his detective work by tackling the little fish and hoping for a lead on the big fish.
He could have just gone ahead and killed Grissom, but he's smart enough to know that somebody else would just take his place. he has to take apart the entire empire piece by piece.

Well said.

It's not exactly laziness per se.....Burton is the opposite of Nolan when it comes to explaining Batman's methods and equiptment. Nolan will show you why he has it, where it comes from and what it does. Burton just shows you it.

Leave it up to the imagination.

 

[RobC]

Yeah maybe, I dunno, it seemed mostly that he was just going for criminals, with no co-ordination behind it. Maybe he was going for Grissom, but again, maybe he was just going after a criminal.

Alfred helped a little, but outside of him, Bruce seemed to shun anything. He even ignores Alfred most of the time, like when he brings him soup and stuff. Just my opinion though...

And you know, I don't think it's a case of Burton 'just showing it' it's more likely the sign of a lazy script. He did just turn up at Penguin's headquarters with the exact tools, know-how and skills to ruin everything Penguin had to throw at him. It's just a sort of, well, let down.

But hey, who am I to point fingers? It's the same in all the Batman movies, BF where he turns up at the island with the sonar equipment so he can throw better, and then SURPRISE he has to use it... You know>

 

[Cain]

There are minute things that I felt Burton should've kept though. Subtle things that would've made a difference like this bit that was in the shooting script but ommited from the film from when Selina first checks her answering machine

Onto the next message:

GRUFF WOMAN
Selina ... We've missed you at the
rape prevention class ... It's not
enough to master martial arts. Hey,
Elvis knew those moves, and he died
fat. You must stop seeing yourself
as a vict--