World Webbing formula - Part 1

[Spider-Phantom]

Currently I am working on the trigger so it looks more realistic. I kind of went all out with this web shooter and created my own nickel-plated annealed brass cartridges. : (!!! The best advise I can give you is to try the altoids idea. Besides, the thing your trying to do is create a working, shooting web shooter. Nothing major so far for me. For the heating "the battery connects to a copper wire, then to the chromium wire, back to a copper wire, to a switch, and back to the battery. The chromium wire gets really hot as the circuit is made. Insulate all the wires.", just like WW said. I personally haven't done it so I don't exactly know!!! I used a spray bottle nozzle to shoot!!!

 

[White_widow]

I'm now decently certain that PVA is our polymer. I'm starting to figure out the difference between:

-Pva powder
-Pva water soluble yarn
-PVa water soluble staple fiber
- PVA-ecc

The difference in tensile strength from pva powder to PVA-ecc is due to hydrolization.

the basic powder can be as flimsy as a glue. The PVA is as strong as steel.

The powder is barely hydrolized. The yarn is medium hydrolized. The PVA-ecc is 100% hydrolized.

Now I'm not sure if the strength has anything to do with the chemicals in the coagulation bath. I do know that the coagulation bath does help give it water proofing. How much help it gives is the key question.

Now the only two questions in my mind are:
1.) Is fully hydrolized PVA water soluble?
2.) How do I increase crystallization in a polymer.

 

[nolder]

1. Yes, CO2. It's strong and it shoots the web far. But I can't seem to make it go straight so I am working on that. : D!!!

2. Yes, I have created a spinneret but I want to keep it concealed for now. I will explain how it works somewhere in October.

3. I used a CO2 pressure vessel because it is small, (about the size of your thumb), and it fits nicely into my web shooter.

4. Yes, the vacuum annoys me so. It is loud. There is a small motor which activates a fan. When air particles are driven forward, the density of particles (and therefore the air pressure) increases in front of the fan and decreases behind the fan. This creates a suction. This suction is very slow. It takes around 30-50 seconds for it to retract.

Now, I am sorry to say. I am taking a break because I've been working on this for around five-six months. You won't see me much on the message board but I will come and see how everything is going. The tutorial date has changed to somewhere in October or November. I am deeply sorry. ; (!!! But if you all can come up with a better retracting system which isn't so noisy and bulky. Please don't hesitate to speak up. I will speak and discuss again somewhere in August. I enjoyed our short time together. I will still post pictures so stay "tuned" for that. : D!!!!!!!!!

ahhh you have me so excited! So many ideas!! and questions!!

what size and what kind of valve did you use to connect the co2 to the rest of the webshooter?

what is really fascinating to me is your vacuum part and how your getting it to retract. I have about a billion questions on the vacuum alone t:
can you explain where you vacuum part is? is it IN your pressure vessel?!?!?
the web fluid gets pressurized by the co2 then goes pass the valve, through the nozzle?!? does the vacuum then suck it back through the valve?
OH WAIT! you said you have a spinnerete! does it suck the web back through the spinneret?

metaphorically, you took a 1 way street, and made it 2 ways. the 1 way being the usual direction of the web from a webshooter and the 2 way being the addition of retraction

 

[spidey44]

I found 98% mol PVA is soluble in hot water around 96 degrees Celsius.

 

[White_widow]

That's pretty good Spidey!

I also found out more about the spinning processes. In dry spinning, the PVA is allowed to be wet as long as it's heated and cooled. CO2 and heated spinneret it is.

Edit: Dry Spinning
This process comprises extruding a high concentration aqueous PVA solution into conditioned air and drying the extruded streams to obtain fibers. Details of this process have been given (19, 20). In dry spinning, the extruded streams coagulate by cooling, rather than by evaporation of water. Figure 4 shows a flow diagram of the manufacture of filament yarn by dry spinning.This process starts with preparation of raw material PVA chips. Chip preparation is conducted for thepurposes of securing prescribed water content and improving operation efficiency during extrusion dissolution.Ordinary PVA, containing sodium acetate, is washed with cool water to reduce the sodium acetate content. After washing and squeezing off of excess water, the PVA is fed to a kneader, where it is kneaded to give aprescribed water content and then formed into chips having a prescribed size through a granulator.The chips are fed to an extruder, where they are dissolved and the air contained therein is mostly removedby backflow. The concentrated solution leaving the extruder is filtered and then extruded through orifices intoa vertical, several meter long spinning tube, where part of the water evaporates and the extruded filaments obtain the strength to withstand their own weight. The fluidity of the spinning solution is an important factorin fiber formation in spinning tubes, and a number of rheological studies have been conducted (21–24). Onedetermination (25) of the relationship between the apparent viscosity upon passage through an orifice and theshearing force indicates that higher shearing force is favorable insofar as it decreases apparent viscosity, butit increases ballooning (die swell) of the extruded solution, which damages spinnability. After being dried through a drier, the fiber is heat-drawn at a draw ratio of around 10, to obtain aserviceable strength. Various modifications have been applied to this process, to produce a variety of filamentyarns including a monofilament having a diameter of 200 to 700
µm (for seaweed cultivation material andfor reinforcing cement) and water-soluble yarns (26). Water-soluble yarns mostly use PVAs with low degree ofpolymerization, and the dissolution temperatures are adjusted by controlling the degree of hydrolysis of theraw material PVA and/or the heat-treatment conditions of the yarns

 

[nolder]

I'm now decently certain that PVA is our polymer. I'm starting to figure out the difference between:

-Pva powder
-Pva water soluble yarn
-PVa water soluble staple fiber
- PVA-ecc

The difference in tensile strength from pva powder to PVA-ecc is due to hydrolization.

the basic powder can be as flimsy as a glue. The PVA is as strong as steel.

The powder is barely hydrolized. The yarn is medium hydrolized. The PVA-ecc is 100% hydrolized.

Now I'm not sure if the strength has anything to do with the chemicals in the coagulation bath. I do know that the coagulation bath does help give it water proofing. How much help it gives is the key question.

Now the only two questions in my mind are:
1.) Is fully hydrolized PVA water soluble?
2.) How do I increase crystallization in a polymer.

ahh remember that Rayon video you posted? it said after coming out of the spinneret, the material could become fibrous with a warm column of air OR the chemical bath (I forget what it's called). Is that what you are looking into now?

 

[nolder]

That's pretty good Spidey!

I also found out more about the spinning processes. In dry spinning, the PVA is allowed to be wet as long as it's heated and cooled. CO2 and heated spinneret it is.

wait heated then cooled or cooled then heated? or does it not matter?

 

[White_widow]

look at the edit. It describes the entire process.

 

[nolder]

oh wow! where did you find that?
the only part I didn't understand is the relationship between shearing force and viscosity. is it saying a low viscosity (like water) would increase shearing force?

 

[spidey44]

So far for dry spinning I've found that after or while solvent is evaporating the polymer passes over rollers, and is stretched to orient the molecules and increase the fiber strength.

 

[Spider-Phantom]

ahhh you have me so excited! So many ideas!! and questions!!

what size and what kind of valve did you use to connect the co2 to the rest of the webshooter?

what is really fascinating to me is your vacuum part and how your getting it to retract. I have about a billion questions on the vacuum alone t:
can you explain where you vacuum part is? is it IN your pressure vessel?!?!?
the web fluid gets pressurized by the co2 then goes pass the valve, through the nozzle?!? does the vacuum then suck it back through the valve?
OH WAIT! you said you have a spinnerete! does it suck the web back through the spinneret?

metaphorically, you took a 1 way street, and made it 2 ways. the 1 way being the usual direction of the web from a webshooter and the 2 way being the addition of retraction

Ah the vacuum. The vacuum is in the front of the shooter, and in front of the pressure vessel. Basically, not giving too much away because it's not quite stable yet. The pressure goes through the valve and out the nozzle. Then, you turn on the vacuum and the webbing slowly returns through the valve back into the cartridge. You then replace the CO2 and do it again. My webbing is still to hard and also uses a PVG webbing. I'm sorry that I didn't answer everything you asked but I'm tired and I have a flight at 2:00 tomorrow and I'll go a little bit more in depth from at around 10:00 tommow. : D!!!

 

[Spider-Phantom]

* too much , not touch !!!

 

[nolder]

Ah the vacuum. The vacuum is in the front of the shooter, and in front of the pressure vessel. Basically, not giving too much away because it's not quite stable yet. The pressure goes through the valve and out the nozzle. Then, you turn on the vacuum and the webbing slowly returns through the valve back into the cartridge. You then replace the CO2 and do it again. My webbing is still to hard and also uses a PVG webbing. I'm sorry that I didn't answer everything you asked but I'm tired and I have a flight at 2:00 tomorrow and I'll go a little bit more in depth from at around 10:00 tommow. : D!!!

Ahh so it sucks the webbing through a separate part once it leaves. that's brilliant! so you get 1 web per co2 cartridge? that kinda stinks. maybe we could improve that.

oh and have fun in France! I'm glad you'll return to us atleast once

 

[Spider-Phantom]

Ahh so it sucks the webbing through a separate part once it leaves. that's brilliant! so you get 1 web per co2 cartridge? that kinda stinks. maybe we could improve that.

oh and have fun in France! I'm glad you'll return to us atleast once

Actually, I'm going to England. : D. I just major in French. Did I say change CO2 vessel? My mistake. I meant change the web fluid cartridge once it's used up!!! My mistake!!!!!! Oh. And I officially changed my CO2 cartridges to nitrogen!!!!!!!!!!

 

[nolder]

Actually, I'm going to England. : D. I just major in French. Did I say change CO2 vessel? My mistake. I meant change the web fluid cartridge once it's used up!!! My mistake!!!!!! Oh. And I officially changed my CO2 cartridges to nitrogen!!!!!!!!!!

WE'RE HAVING TWO DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS ON 2 DIFFERENT THREADS!! we're kinda breaking the "webbing in the webbing forum and webshooter in the webshooter forum" rule, but that's ok, I'm running out of time to access your wealth of knowledge .

Nitrogen huh? I haven't looked to far into it, (I'm about to go to bed after this post) but it seems, online atleast, that they're crazy expensive! its like 5 12g for 100 bucks? you must've gotten em cheaper.

EDIT: oh and how did you make your "nickel-plated annealed brass cartridges"? did you use commercially available metal containers? or maybe you did some metal working?

 

[Spider-Phantom]

WE'RE HAVING TWO DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS ON 2 DIFFERENT THREADS!! we're kinda breaking the "webbing in the webbing forum and webshooter in the webshooter forum" rule, but that's ok, I'm running out of time to access your wealth of knowledge .

Nitrogen huh? I haven't looked to far into it, (I'm about to go to bed after this post) but it seems, online atleast, that they're crazy expensive! its like 5 12g for 100 bucks? you must've gotten em cheaper.

EDIT: oh and how did you make your "nickel-plated annealed brass cartridges"? did you use commercially available metal containers? or maybe you did some metal working?

Actually. My friend's dad own's a Hot Air Balloon business and I got like 20 from him. For my cartridges😜. Hand made them in biology/chemistry/wood shop room. Got a design of the Internet and it looks nice!!!!!!! I'm kindo also breaking my rule of discussing the web-shooter with all of you, but I still have half of it concealed!!!!!!!!!! : D!!!!!!!!!!!! But I'm not going to discuss the webbing until it is completely finished. By looking at my blue print's, my final design will be at least as thick as 2-3 sweater sleeve's. After this message/post/what-ever-you-call-it, Going to go work on it some more. I literally just woke up!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[White_widow]

To spidey44: In our case, that is what the spinneret was for. The molecules align, when forced through an opening. I like it though, we should make that a point.

To Nolder: I posted it back on the first webbing formula. http://www.scribd.com/doc/30130164/Fibers-Poly-Vinyl-Alcohol

look particularly at pages 5-7 according to Page seven the WEAKEST PVA fiber (ignore staples, because we want continuous filaments) is 190 MPa. The strongest that cellulose acetate gets is about 110 MPa. This is of course with extruding, a perfected process, and a high quality material, but you get my point. We can pretty much ignore cellulose now, until nanocellulose becomes available.

Now according to that paper, the Filament PVA yarn doesn't even have to be dry, it just has to be heated and cooled. As long as it's cold, water doesn't even dissolve it.


according to another website (http://www.nitivy.co.jp/en/products/solvron/index.html) PVA loses solubility when it is forced into alkalization. That is to say, if you want the fiber to be soluble, dry spin. The wet spinning has salts in the coagulation bath that make it resistant to water.

 

[Spider-Phantom]

Ok. I am officially leaving for the airport. It's been fun. But I've. Packed away my web shooter for now. Good-bye one and all. This is the real-deal.'see you soon, I guess. And WW, when I come back, I want to see ALOT of progress. To nolder, it's a shame you weren't online today at this time. I would've liked to discuss with you more. To spidey, keep up the good research. I will miss you all for the time being because you people are probably the only people in the world actually trying to create a web shooter. To MarvelFan, : D!!!!!!!!!!! I'll see you all
After then. Perhaps at that time. A web shooter will be complete and we will all be our own Spider-Men in New York or London or something. : )!!!!!!!!! I wish you all luck and a farewell from me. Goodbye everyone!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MSaleem]

Ok. I am officially leaving for the airport. It's been fun. But I've. Packed away my web shooter for now. Good-bye one and all. This is the real-deal.'see you soon, I guess. And WW, when I come back, I want to see ALOT of progress. To nolder, it's a shame you weren't online today at this time. I would've liked to discuss with you more. To spidey, keep up the good research. I will miss you all for the time being because you people are probably the only people in the world actually trying to create a web shooter. To MarvelFan, : D!!!!!!!!!!! I'll see you all
After then. Perhaps at that time. A web shooter will be complete and we will all be our own Spider-Men in New York or London or something. : )!!!!!!!!! I wish you all luck and a farewell from me. Goodbye everyone!!!!!!!!!!!

You forgot me

Anyone looking for cheap NO2 (Nitrogen) Cartridges???
Tadaaaa:
http://www.store.homebrew4less.com/No2-Nitrogen-Cartridges-8-Grams-Ea-Box-Of-24/productinfo/BPTAPNI/

Plus, can I use a Bike Shock Pump (The one you use with CO2) with a nitrogen cartridge?

 

[Spider-Phantom]

I'm so sorry MSaleem. It was fun talking to you too. Thanks for the cheap ones. I'll be sure to use it!!!!!! Good bye everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Black_Widow]

WW. Now that you web shooter is unjammed, can you make a video of it actually shooting you current formula?

 

[spidey44]

Does anyone know of a way to make micrometer sized rubber particles , besides electrospinning.

 

[Black_Widow]

Does anyone know of a way to make micrometer sized rubber particles , besides electrospinning.

There is no other possible way unless electro spinning. -.-. Sorry.

 

[nolder]

There is no other possible way unless electro spinning. -.-. Sorry.

don't say that. there could be another way. maybe someone else knows it

 

[Black_Widow]

Why do you want it anyway¿