World Webbing formula - Part 1

[Krinkleneck]

No, the freeze and fire phenomenon will affect the spinneret. The freeze and fire will be determined by the propellant and the pressure vessel. If you use bag-on, it won't do that.

I don't see why so many of you are so opposed to using normal air. If you were to use any other propellant, it will be for another use. For example, CO2 will freeze the fluid. Butane will act as a solvent to some polymers. However, since it's been established that so many people don't know what the formula is, we shouldn't be choosing a gas with an effect.

BTW I'm not picking on you parker. I'm trying to make it so people recognize WHY I do the things I do. Every factor plays a part.

I am against normal air because it will react with it causing a difference in the webbing. Also compression of normal air is different then concentrated co2. The less dense gases will diffuse first giving a difference in the webbing as you slowly empty the chamber from the different aerial reactions. I say we work with argon, nitrogen, and c02, and helium. These are the more readily available gases on the market, but I am leaving oxygen out right now considering how much more reactive it is with more substances. We also need to make sure the C02 isn't affecting the acidity so if we were to make temporary straps to a ceiling with this it won't over time etch concrete.

 

[White_widow]

750 PSI?!?! WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYONE PRESSURIZE THE FLUID AT 750 PSI?

The flammability would actually be useful in certain compositions that crosslinks at high temperatures. It would only be in certain glues.

The butane would replace the need for a heating system.

 

[White_widow]

I am against normal air because it will react with it causing a difference in the webbing.

We also need to make sure the C02 isn't affecting the acidity so if we were to make temporary straps to a ceiling with this it won't over time etch concrete.

What reaction? Everything is pre-crosslinked. Air won't effect it at all.

The formula doesn't contain any acids. CO2 is rather inert, that's why it's so popular... *raised eyebrows*

 

[Krinkleneck]

Have you seen the pressure levels in the average cartridge of co2? It averages 800 for 70 degree weather for the little tiny ones you get for tiny air pistols. Nitrogen ones get up to 4500 psi on a cool day. Those are the pressures required for distance and power shots of anything for the forces we need. We are not shooting something that is a tiny little pellet, but we are shooting a continuous string which requires more pressure. As for heat you could use a small arcing electrical field to heat it with plasma. It can be compact if you use stuff from a taser, but all in all unless you can find something that can heat faster I wouldn't keep a flamethrower that close to my skin. The only exception is if you have asbestos or a flexible aerogel. The heat you are calling for at the distance to either a flammable clothing or skin isn't a good mix, and it would melt Kevlar. Find a better method or skip the heat.

 

[White_widow]

800psi is within a specific space/area. Within the confines of a larger pressure vessel, it will max at about 150 psi.

The heat you are describing is way too high. We aren't putting a lighter to it. It's a heated coil, and that, with controlled voltage and length of resistance wire will be easy enough to control. Also, it will be insulated, as to not effect the skin.

If you lower the viscosity 150 psi will do the trick.

You are acting upon assumptions of extreme factors. The only gas that will combust is butane. If that gas is used, it is single handedly to remove the heating system.

The only material that will combust is the acetone, however by combining the acetone with water, it will raise the boiling point and the flash point.

 

[nolder]

Have you seen the pressure levels in the average cartridge of co2? It averages 800 for 70 degree weather for the little tiny ones you get for tiny air pistols.

It can be 800 psi in the cartridge, but you have to consider the size of the pressure vessel. In a 10 cubic inch pressure vessel, pressure from a 12g co2 cartridge will be 420 psi.



http://www.spudfiles.com/spud_wiki/index.php?title=CO2_cartridge

 

[Krinkleneck]

That also means it increases the time factor, heat required and energy consumption. With a less viscous mixture we move more and more to a less stable strand. Not only that it limits our potential for the length of the strand by lowering the pressure, and limits the amount of shots and fluid to pressure ratio. I am not saying that heating isn't a good idea I am just saying that its implementation isn't. Also if you are running at 150 psi you have two possibilities if the butane or acetone ignite. The butane will blow itself out and freeze the effectiveness of the heating coil, or you will have a flame thrower. Have you ever refilled a lighter? When you do you would be lucky for even that at its lower pressure not to freeze over. When I refill a lighter I have to shift my hands around so I don't get frost bite. I mean another option would be to plate the pressurized gas behind a plate which forces the fluid out instead of sending it hurdling through with it. Then your heating coil could work, but you would have to get it good and hot for every shot, and then you would have to wait for it to reheat. If I used it for temporary building and construction or to only shoot it once or twice in a 20 second interval for a good shot. That would be great, but I need to make sure I can push the limits and give an extreme to shoot for beyond what anyone could use this for. It is a good thing to see on the extremes to see potential failures. If you can make the most extreme accident less harmful you make the most extreme less harmful if you can afford it.

 

[Krinkleneck]

It can be 800 psi in the cartridge, but you have to consider the size of the pressure vessel. In a 10 cubic inch pressure vessel, pressure from a 12g co2 cartridge will be 420 psi.



http://www.spudfiles.com/spud_wiki/index.php?title=CO2_cartridge

We are not talking about a 10 cubic inch vessel. I am talking if the pressure tank fails and pops a hole or springs a leak. Even 420 psi has potential to do damage. In the shop if a 1000 psi tank pops a leak we take broom sticks to see where the leak is. We find it by the broom stick getting cut by the pressure from the leak. Don't underestimate air pressure. 420 is enough to send shrapnel through eighth inch steel plate, and Kevlar is weak against blades because it will window through the threads.

 

[White_widow]

And that's why we will stick with 100-150 psi.

Let me ask you a question then. What formula are you using?

The amount of heat I'm using will be the equivalent of a hair dryer. If you look at cellulose acetate it only requires a stream of warm air to remove the acetone. Now all of this can depend on the design of the spinneret, the type of valve you are using, and the material you are heating.

Now let's assume that you add water in a formula that uses acetone that acts as a solvent, you have to heat it.

I feel though that you are assuming that we are using the equivalent of an oven. We aren't even adding enough heat to boil water, unless we are using it to remove water.

 

[spidey44]

If you use too much pressure you'll blow the strand apart before it's formed, and why would you use plasma? and what's the point of using a plate to push the fluid out, we're using a bag on valve design?

 

[Krinkleneck]

a hair dryer isn't good enough when discharging 100-150 psi. The only thing that might solidify will be frozen on the edge or is touching the heating element. When discharging butane from that pressure you are creating a cold spot. You said yourself we would add water to the mixture to counteract the acetone igniting which would mean you would have to get rid of the water. That is adding to the fact on how cold the butane is when you vent it, but considering that it only takes a hair dryer then you could put the pressurized gas in a fashion that it doesn't vent, but pushes the fluid out. You would need to increase the heating to maintain the hotspots temperature, and the hotspot should be in a funnel with holes so you can get as much out in the final moments as possible. But if you vent the butane with the mixture you will come out with it being inconsistent. The butane would be quick chilling the mixture at the time you want it to be heating up creating warm and cold spots. This alone will destabilize the final product. Anything that comes out that remains in string form would be a fraction of the strength of something that didn't have the chilling factor. If it only needs a little heat then why do you need the butane. Butane burns hot that's why they use it in lighters.

 

[Krinkleneck]

heat the funnel, but don't let the fluid come in contact just heat the air.

 

[Krinkleneck]

If you use too much pressure you'll blow the strand apart before it's formed, and why would you use plasma? and what's the point of using a plate to push the fluid out, we're using a bag on valve design?

1. Not if you use a regulator which you can pull out of most if not all air rifles 2. Plasma gets hot fast and heats everything up quickly hence you could arc some plasma and the air would be hot fast in between shots to evaporate the acetone (just a thought nothing concrete) 3. explain your bag design

 

[spidey44]

that's pretty much what we're already working on.

 

[spidey44]

if you use a regulator what is the point of having so much pressure to begin with, the plasma would catch it on fire, the fluid is in a bag connected to a valve, and the bag is surrounded by a propellant that pushes on the bag from all sides.

 

[White_widow]

Ok... I see the disconnect. You are assuming I am using butane as the propellant.

I am using normal air as the propellant. I suggested that butane may be a propellant, only under the condition it was a solvent, but seeing as though it doesn't work on our current blends, we aren't using it. The butane, as I've said repeatedly (though it seems you can't take a hint) would be a solvent, therefore removing the need for a heating system. If we were to use it, we certainly wouldn't light it.

Acetone by itself evaporates quickly. The heating in that system is only for the removal of that acetone in the Cellulose acetate formula.

The water is to be used with the pva formula, but that's not necessarily the formula we will use. Certainly it's worth a shot, but so far, Cellulose acetate is our best bet. Right now I'm testing PVA water and acetone blends to see if I can obtain strength. PVA can have the tensile strength ranging from liquid adhesive to construction fiber. If we can make the PVA strong by freezing it out of the water, then CO2 could be the propellant, and PVA would be the main polymer.

BTW what is your formula?

 

[White_widow]

It averages 800 for 70 degree weather for the little tiny ones you get for tiny air pistols. Nitrogen ones get up to 4500 psi on a cool day. Those are the pressures required for distance and power shots of anything for the forces we need.

http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/peacemaker-mk2-water-cannon-t17884.html

50 psi without any nozzle to increase pressure or direct flow.

 

[Krinkleneck]

if you use a regulator what is the point of having so much pressure to begin with, the plasma would catch it on fire, the fluid is in a bag connected to a valve, and the bag is surrounded by a propellant that pushes on the bag from all sides.

1. The regulator would be so you could have more shots without wasting excess gas if you fired it.
2. You don't fire the mixture through the plasma. You fire it through the plasma heated air, and if you did fire it though the plasma it would burn the front end of the formula, stop the arcing (depending on its conductivity) and if you're lucky break it from an over discharge.
3 the bag is an inefficiant form. I use something like that before either you will leave to much in, pop it, or have the bag get sucked into the valve rip or not rip.
As for my formula I am compiling a new one to act like yours which drys quickly, but it's backbone would be a rubber/carbon fiber mixture with a contact bonding solution.

 

[Krinkleneck]

But I am just now beginning to make the formula. So I know that is more ****** then dealing with hillbillies after swimming in the Georgian river.

 

[Krinkleneck]

I also plan on using powerlets because normal air diffuses differently for every shot you take. So every shot is minutely different from the last

 

[Krinkleneck]

http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/peacemaker-mk2-water-cannon-t17884.html

50 psi without any nozzle to increase pressure or direct flow.

In a potato gun yes, but that doesn't define what I am using.

 

[White_widow]

Nice formula. How do you plan to dissolve it though?

The bag that you are describing as inefficient is due to a low quality material. The bags that are used are 4 layers of tempered aluminum.

I think that a regulator is actually a splendid idea. It will allow for the pressure to last longer, and it can even control how quickly the webbing comes out.

 

[Krinkleneck]

Plus his is a 1.5" ball valve ours won't have the size or slop that has.

 

[Krinkleneck]

Nice formula. How do you plan to dissolve it though?

The bag that you are describing as inefficient is due to a low quality material. The bags that are used are 4 layers of tempered aluminum.

I think that a regulator is actually a splendid idea. It will allow for the pressure to last longer, and it can even control how quickly the webbing comes out.

I plan on suspending whatever I am using in my rubber or adhesive and have it bond when it dries quickly. This in itself would be tacky and all it needs is a little adhesive. If I do it right I can bungee jump with it.

 

[spidey44]

I guess a regulator wouldn't be too bad, but I don't think I'll use it, It seems like your formula is similar to some of ours, Oh yeah and welcome to the forums.