The Dark Knight What 'departures from canon' are not acceptable to you?

[ultimatefan]

There are so many different takes on Batman in all the different versions over the years that it´s even hard to define what can be considered "canon". Let me just say that, as a fan, I wanna see preserved a certain essential core of the character. He has to be a dark and gritty creature of the night, a complex and angst-ridden man yet noble and heroic at the same time. His basic origin has to remain the same, even though some details and elements can be added/changed. I love things like the bat cave and batmobile and all the supporting characters and villains, but it doesn´t mean I´m completely close-minded to a fresh take on them, as long as that essential core is retained.

 

[The Batman]

Oh, I don't disagree. I just didn't see why Joker doing it was so ZOMG terrible.

I liked the idea somebody suggested that Joker orchastrated the whole thing but it was still Maroni that actually did the scarring.

It's not terrible....but the idea has been done in about every comic film, having every little thing connect somehow...and like someone else pointed out, its ok for joker to scar dent, but not ok for joker to kill batman's parents? My main problem with the idea is that its become so expected and wanted from fanboys, that when you see it on screen, you just go...."Ehhhhh".

I mean, people are treating maroni like hes utterly useless when hes not. He can easily be Gothams new crime boss. And the idea of Batman becoming so obsessed and focused on joker, forgetting how dangerous maroni can be until maroni throws that acid in dents face is alot more original than having everything connect....again...in a comic film

 

[Miranda Fox]

It's not terrible....but the idea has been done in about every comic film, having every little thing connect somehow...and like someone else pointed out, its ok for joker to scar dent, but not ok for joker to kill batman's parents? My main problem with the idea is that its become so expected and wanted from fanboys, that when you see it on screen, you just go...."Ehhhhh".

I mean, people are treating maroni like hes utterly useless when hes not. He can easily be Gothams new crime boss. And the idea of Batman becoming so obsessed and focused on joker, forgetting how dangerous maroni can be until maroni throws that acid in dents face is alot more original than having everything connect....again...in a comic film

That's a good point.

I still wouldn't consider it overkill though - certainly not of the kind seen in the Spidey films which, as good as they are, seem to have a standard formula involving every villian having a direct connection to Peter.

At least with a character like Roman, the connection is canon.

 

[The Batman]

That's a good point.

I still wouldn't consider it overkill though - certainly not of the kind seen in the Spidey films which, as good as they are, seem to have a standard formula involving every villian having a direct connection to Peter.

At least with a character like Roman, the connection is canon.

Either way, i just want it to look good on screen. and i just wish we had some confirmations by now. everything nowadays is speculation or leaked.

 

[GL1]

ALL departures from Canon are acceptable to me if they are done well and the spirit of the characters intact.

I hate it when people criticize one film for departing from canon and then love Batman Begins... the hypocrites. But I, personally, welcome any well done change that is realistic and does not change the main character's identity.

 

[strider]

ALL departures from Canon are acceptable to me if they are done well and the spirit of the characters intact.

I hate it when people criticize one film for departing from canon and then love Batman Begins... the hypocrites. But I, personally, welcome any well done change that is realistic and does not change the main character's identity.

Good job dude...The 1st page and a half of this thread was pure fan boy fantasy b!tching.

 

[Rynan]

It's not terrible....but the idea has been done in about every comic film, having every little thing connect somehow...and like someone else pointed out, its ok for joker to scar dent, but not ok for joker to kill batman's parents? My main problem with the idea is that its become so expected and wanted from fanboys, that when you see it on screen, you just go...."Ehhhhh".

Real life has connections. Nothing is random. There is no coincidence, only the illusion of coincidence.

Harvey just got into town. He'll have no enemies to begin with and the enemy of the District Attorney's office was The Roman, who is either bat**** or dead. The criminal element is reeling from Falcone's absence and are either killing each other for power or dealing with the threat of Batman. A District Attorney is not a threat at this time. No one's criminal power is secure or strong enough to focus it's attention on Dent. They need to focus on the now, which is destroying their enemies and taking over their territory. Once the power vacume is filled(which may take years) then they can fixate on the law. But now, it's war.

 

[blind_fury]

Ras spoon feeding Bruce into becoming Batman was a huge mistake. It simplified Batman's long process of becoming Batman and demystified the Batman.

Bruce has had dozens of mentors and he needed them all equally to become Batman. He needed to learn how to become a escape artist, detective, military tactitcal expert, all styles of fighting, and much more. In Batman Begins it seems like all Bruce needed to become batman was some mystical ninjitsu. What about the hundreds of other skills required to be Batman?

And I like the way Ras Al Ghul is introduced in Batman TAS much better. They should've saved Ras for 2nd sequel. When Batman is experienced and a worthy adversary for Ras.

 

[DA Harvey Dent]

Ras spoon feeding Bruce into becoming Batman was a huge mistake. It simplified Batman's long process of becoming Batman and demystified the Batman.

Bruce has had dozens of mentors and he needed them all equally to become Batman. He needed to learn how to become a escape artist, detective, military tactitcal expert, all styles of fighting, and much more. In Batman Begins it seems like all Bruce needed to become batman was some mystical ninjitsu. What about the hundreds of other skills required to be Batman?

And I like the way Ras Al Ghul is introduced in Batman TAS much better. They should've saved Ras for 2nd sequel. When Batman is experienced and a worthy adversary for Ras.

You do realize the limitations of a 2 hour feature film right?

People never cease to amaze me.

 

[The Batman]

You do realize the limitations of a 2 hour feature film right?

People never cease to amaze me.

and yet it only took 5 panels tops in Detecive Comics 33 to convey the idea that bruce got his learning from all sorts of different places.

 

[blind_fury]

You do realize the limitations of a 2 hour feature film right?

People never cease to amaze me.

I prefer an adaptation of Frank Miller's Year One than have Ras Al Ghul as Bruces mentor.

That does a disservice to both characters. Batman TAS handled their relationship much better.

 

[blind_fury]

and yet it only took 5 panels tops in Detecive Comics 33 to convey the idea that bruce got his learning from all sorts of different places.

Exactly, a few well placed flash backs could show Bruce thinking back to his training all over the world. This way the audience would see the many mentors he had and that his training since childhood was crucial for him to become the legendary Batman.

 

[MechaOrga]

Exactly, a few well placed flash backs could show Bruce thinking back to his training all over the world. This way the audience would how many mentors he had and that he was training hard since he was boy.

I think that may happen in the next film. I don't believe Nolan is done with his flashbacks.

Ra's said Bruce was good when he met him( he knew tiger, panther, etc...) but he could make him into a legend(summarizing)

It is possible that before he went to jail in the mountains he stopped off in other countries to learn some other fighting styles.

I personally thought that the idea of making bruce Ra's appentice was genius for a two hour movie. Its better than Ra's showing up in the middle of the film out of nowwhere with his agenda. This way, we all kinda knew what it was from the start of the film(extreme justice)

I also find it cool that Bruce was being trained to be in the league of shadows and that he took something terrible and made it into something good(Batman).

I also like the fact that it seems that Batman's Showing up in gotham, the way nolan seems to be taking it, actually makes gotham much worse than if bruce had just became a politician or something to fight injustice.I love that and I don't remember the comics taking that route.

I like the departures from "canon" as long as it tells a good story .....(and as long as (1)batman's parents are murdered in front of him, (2)alfred is his butler,(3)joker has pale skin, greenish hair and dark red/black lips, (4)gordon is a friend on the force, (5)batman wears a costume that has ears and a cape, (6)Batman drives a cool batmobile, (7)and the batsignal shines up high over gotham. AMEN.)

 

[blind_fury]

Begins makes it look like Bruce needed Ras in order to become Batman and that does a disservice to the character. It was Bruces drive to become the ultimate crime fighter that allowed him to become Batman. He used dozens of important mentors since he was 9 to become the worlds greatest detective. He didn't get most of his Batman skills from one source. He had to combine hundreds of learned skills and expertise to become the ultimate crime fighter.

In Begins Bruce is a thug until Ras comes along and enlightens him and gives him most of the skills he needs to become Batman. What a load of BS. Batman's training is far more extended and diversified than that.

 

[Cristo]

Eh...let's think about it a different way. I'm going to depart a bit from the ideas that have been thrown around this board and present me own ideas for what could be some good sequels.

First of all, I have to say I'm on the side of the people who say that Joker scarring Harvey Dent would feel too coincidental, too much of a way to connect everything.

Now, I know I'm going to be hanged for this, but what about not scarring Harvey Dent until the middle of the THIRD film? Now calm down...I'm not finished. My reasons for saying this are these: In TDK, we've got Joker killing innocent people and basically being a pain in the neck for Batman. We all know Joker's not going to die, so this story could be about like Christopher Nolan said, "things getting worse before they get better". Think about it: the Joker, Mr Zsaz, and Scarecrow causing havoc (with Joker being the primary and best villain of course). Then, we have the cure for this fear toxin, so they give it to Carmine Falcone in order to try him in court BUT he gets off on some technicality or because of some crooked judges and starts ruling Gotham again through his thugs. This could set up the rivalry between Falcone and the new mob boss Maroni, and it could also introduce Harvey Dent as the district attorney who tries to bring them both down. Meanwhile, Batman's dealing with the maniacal Joker and, done right, that could basically envelop the story of TDK ending with Joker getting shipped off to Arkham(albeit with some cryptic joke, of course) and Batman, Dent, and Gordon on the rooftop(just like the first movie) allying to stop crime in Gotham, leaving some hope for the future.

Now, the third movie focuses on the gangsters. Harvey Dent becomes obsessed with taking down Falcone, while Batman also tries to stop the gangsters from destroying Gotham City. The tagline could even be "I believe in Gotham City." Maroni is finally convicted, but he scars Harvey in court. Harvey goes to the hospital, Batman dealing with Joker escaping from Arkham, Harvey escapes, finds Falcone. Now we could have a stand down with Batman, Joker, Falcone, and Two-Face. Two-Face flips his coin; it lands on the scarred side. He shoots Falcone twice in the head and he escapes. Batman goes to pursue Two-Face, but Joker blocks him and starts lauging manically before saying something like "It's too late, Batman. Gotham belongs to the freaks now. Like him, me...and you." Batman and Joker fight; Batman takes down Joker (something symbolic of Batman conquering his fear) and pursues Two-Face only to find that he's turned himself in saying darkly that "Justice has been done." And, we find Batman standing alone on the building where the first two ended and saying "I believe in justice." "I believe in putting fear...into those who prey on the fearful." Then, we see flashbacks of Batman's father. Batman finally takes his mask off revealing Wayne's face as he looks out over the Gotham City skyline. "I believe in Gotham City." Cue credits.

Now, I think that that would be a good trilogy of Bat-films and I'd like to see what other people think.

 

[gambitfire]

It's not terrible....but the idea has been done in about every comic film, having every little thing connect somehow...and like someone else pointed out, its ok for joker to scar dent, but not ok for joker to kill batman's parents? My main problem with the idea is that its become so expected and wanted from fanboys, that when you see it on screen, you just go...."Ehhhhh".

I mean, people are treating maroni like hes utterly useless when hes not. He can easily be Gothams new crime boss. And the idea of Batman becoming so obsessed and focused on joker, forgetting how dangerous maroni can be until maroni throws that acid in dents face is alot more original than having everything connect....again...in a comic film

I actually like that idea.

 

[silentflute]

I wouldn't even mind if Joker has white skin and dark green hair, but put's bright red lipstick on to complete the illusion. infact i think that'd be creepy.

This in fact is how I've always viewed that Joker.The red lips as a result of his accident always seemed a little too contrived to me.

 

[The Batman]

I actually like that idea.

thank you, sir.

the interesting part about that idea is that it'd reflect real life too. Going by the posts, people dont think maroni's intergal to the story. why not show that in the film too?

 

[lujho]

Second, in regards of his origin, there is NO definate origin for him, except from the tidbits gathered from various Batman issues(I fully throw out TKJ as origin). All that can be safely assumed is that it involved some form of chemical bath unless he was born that way(which I doubt).

No definite origin? Nonsense! There IS a definite origin: Red hood (or ocasionally non-masked criminal) falls in chemical bath with Batman present.

That's a constant in every version of the joker. It's not some vague thing that Batman's not sure of. He's not unsure as to whether Joker was "born that way". He was there. He saw it happen. Joker has never been presented in the comics as someone who just came out of the blue with Batman not knowing a thing about how he came to be. He may not know a lot about Joker *before* that defining incident but he was there for it.

 

[souvlaki]

No definite origin? Nonsense! There IS a definite origin: Red hood (or ocasionally non-masked criminal) falls in chemical bath with Batman present.

That's a constant in every version of the joker. It's not some vague thing that Batman's not sure of. He's not unsure as to whether Joker was "born that way". He was there. He saw it happen. Joker has never been presented in the comics as someone who just came out of the blue with Batman not knowing a thing about how he came to be. He may not know a lot about Joker *before* that defining incident but he was there for it.

Has Batman ever actually definitively put two and two together regarding Red Hood, and the Joker? It's been a while since I followed the comics regularly, but I was always under the assumption that the only person that knew Red Hood and the Joker were one and the same post crisis was the Joker... and even he's not 100% certain about that. I remember Batman slowly connecting the dots in "Man Who Laughs", but never actually saying A definitely lead to B.

And yeah, the Joker has for the most part always been presented as someone that came out of the blue. His origin didn't appear until nearly 10 years after he was created if I remember correctly, and even in TKJ he points out that he's not certain that's what really happened. All we know for certain is someone calling themselves Red Hood fell into a chemical bath at some point. Whether or not that was definitively the Joker, we don't really know. Given the circumstances, that could just as easily be written out of continuity as it was written in. It just happens to be the more accepted origin for the Joker, but there is certainly nothing wrong with making the Joker's origins a mystery. To everybody except the Joker, and to a far lesser extant, Batman, his origins are a mystery.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I prefer an adaptation of Frank Miller's Year One than have Ras Al Ghul as Bruces mentor.

That's a poor example, as Year One contains no training whatsoever. If you take the book as a one-shot out of canon, Ra's could very well have been Bruce's mentor. No mentors are mentioned in Year One.

 

[blind_fury]

My point is it's better to have no mentors featured at all than give a single mentor too much credit for Bruce becoming Batman.

 

[Tojo]

THIS is Batman. What a great shot.

 

[Tojo]

This in fact is how I've always viewed that Joker.The red lips as a result of his accident always seemed a little too contrived to me.

And it also adds a theatrical aspect to Joker, if he even needs one.

 

[Tojo]

My point is it's better to have no mentors featured at all than give a single mentor too much credit for Bruce becoming Batman.

I see what you mean, but having Ra's teach Bruce and then obviously be the integral part to the story makes everything compact, poignant and purposeful. It suits the needs of a movie.

And then there is another thing Nolan changes;that Bruce is essentialy a lost sould of sorts until he meets Ra's, who gives him purpose and intent. He has basic skills and a basic desire, but does not know how to channel it.

However, it is heavily insinuated that Bruce HAS been trained before he meets Ra's. He knows various forms of martial arts and thievery, but Ra's compresses it all and takes him to the highest level. Having Bruce seek out all the best mentors in the world is abit general and for the purposes of a movie, THIS movie, i do not feel this direction would be engaging.