The Dark Knight What 'departures from canon' are not acceptable to you?

[Crooklyn]

Yeah, you know it's interesting... you're right that they made Bruce seem like a lost cause... and yet, the other stuff, the learning to understand the criminal mind, etc. etc... would seem to contradict that. It's almost as though they left us enough room to think what we want. Kind of odd.

Well when he left, I assume he was around his 20s, and during the flashbacks, it looks like he was a lot older. I just figured through time he found *some* sort of path that led him to seek the criminal underworld.

Really? I thought that was one of the often-discussed "missing" scenes from BB... along with Phase 2 Scarecrow. I've certainly heard it alleged many times here on the Hype...

Yeah, Phase 2 was definitely originally part of the film. The graveyard scene however, hasn't. I'm like 99.99% sure about that. Hoping it pops up somewhere in the franchise though. It's one of the few iconic images we have yet to see.

LOL, possibly. The ingredients were sorta there. He was afraid of Bats; his Dad taught him that all creatures feel fear - especially the scary ones. That's basically the theory behind Batman right there. And then Falcone puts whipped cream and sprinkles on it when he goes on at length about "da powah of feah." As in, "now dat's powah you can't buy. Dat's da powah of feah."

Sometimes I wish Goyer had a thesaurus at hand. God knows how many times 'fear' was overused.

Wait, that's the first I've heard of the rubber suit being WB mandated as well... I remember the rumors early on in the BB production that the suit would be cloth. I also remember hearing that they tested the cloth suit and for whatever reason it didn't work out to Nolan's satisfaction.

That was something from BOF I think, but then again a lot of those pre-production rumors weren't true. Who knows. I personally think it was a WB mandate considering what the costume designer said on the DVD.

I'm not on the defensive. I'm on the offensive.

I like going both ways.

Sure. But then you're making up stuff for Maroni to do just so he can scar Harvey. Which is fine, if there's other stuff that's important that he can do. What I remember hearing (again, the truth of it being debatable) was that there would be a mob presence in TDK, a mob boss with ties to Bruce's father. If he's gonna have ties to Bruce's father, that sounds more like Lew Moxon than Sal Maroni. Which would be cool because that story about Bruce's Dad, and Joe Chill possibly having been HIRED to do the killing... is always a good little story. Personally I'd favor that over Maroni.

Yeah, that could happen. But I'd still prefer Maroni over Moxon. If only for the fact that I feel if the Wayne's murder was pre-planned, it takes away from the tragedy that befell Bruce. Being random and all.

I know what you're saying, as well. But scarring Harvey is an important dramatic moment, and because of it being such a big event in Batman lore, and it happening in a story that involves the Joker... it just seems like that moment should be given to the star antagonist. I'm not saying Joker has to be responsible for EVERYTHING that ruins Batman's day, but something that major? Totally.The mob has plenty of other things to do.

There was talk of more corruption being uncovered in TDK. I'd say that's mob territory. If Commissioner Loeb were to turn out crooked, that would be mob territory. Or if the mafia decided to try and put their own guy in the Mayor's office, or in charge of the police force, get rid of Gordon... anything. Lots for the Mob to do. And any of those stories would give Gordon a good storyline and could involve Flass as well, perhaps in a Bullock-like role, where he is supposed to get rid of Gordon and winds up helping Gordon clean house... SOOOO many possibilities that are so much more interesting than having Maroni around just to scar Dent.

Those plots could work, but none of those are really *big* moves. If Harvey is to be a prime player in ridding Gotham of its criminals, then I see him being on the top of the mob's hit-list. Taking him out would serve a purpose, whereas with Joker, would be more like a spur-of-the-moment type of thing.

It can't be single-handedly, because there are two of us. But you're right, we probably could.

I say single-handedly because I feel we make up one whole.

Yeah, I just made that up.

That's what it means.

It was a rhetoric statement.

 

[The Batman]

Guard could say that the sky is green, that Kristen Kruek looks like a dog and that Batman is truly a pathetic wisp of a man and back it up with logic so foolproof that 40 people will send Ms. Kruek a dog collar the next day.

And at the end of the day, it'll still be nothing more than an opinion. an intelligent opinion, but opinion none the less.....

 

[Heretic]

I've got a package to send to Ms Kreuk

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, some opinions are facts. To some people. It's all a bit technical.

 

[batman7289]

as long as the joker has white skin,green hair. possible red lips would be great.
if not ill shall riot.
lol jj

 

[StorminNorman]

And at the end of the day, it'll still be nothing more than an opinion. an intelligent opinion, but opinion none the less.....

Yes, but Guard has a good way of making his opinion be your opinion after he talks to you, thus to you it would be fact.

 

[Crooklyn]

Yes, but Guard has a good way of making his opinion be your opinion after he talks to you, thus to you it would be fact.

Then that makes you a sheep.

 

[Darkest Knight]

Not acceptable? Nipples.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Well when he left, I assume he was around his 20s, and during the flashbacks, it looks like he was a lot older. I just figured through time he found *some* sort of path that led him to seek the criminal underworld.

Well, I think we agree on that. I think it's clear there was some sort of path, and not clear what sort of path it was. Ra's certainly gave Bruce a new path, which was the fastest track to Batman. I don't deny that. But it's quite possible that Bruce would have come to it on his own. I mean, in the comics he didn't choose the "Batman" persona until he got home to Gotham. The fear thing seemed to occur to him while he was chilling in his study. Like a light went on and he was all, "hrmmm... criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot." So basically I'm saying that if Ra's hadn't given that angle to him, it's still possible he would have come to it as he did in the comics.

Yeah, Phase 2 was definitely originally part of the film. The graveyard scene however, hasn't. I'm like 99.99% sure about that. Hoping it pops up somewhere in the franchise though. It's one of the few iconic images we have yet to see.

An open invitation to other posters on this board: I know I've heard it before, about the graveyard scene. If anybody knows anything about it, please share, because I'm going on a memory here, and if I can be proved conclusively right or wrong, I'd like it to happen so this particular issue can be settled... otherwise it's his opinion against mine, and it proves nothing either way.

Sometimes I wish Goyer had a thesaurus at hand. God knows how many times 'fear' was overused.

Hell, it didn't bother me. Fear is one of Batman's weapons. I know there's other words for it, but really, I'd find it more annoying if they kept alternating between fear, terror, horror... especially considering that each of those words really has a different connotation, pertaining to different levels of fear. Sometimes the simplest word is the one that is most appropriate.

That was something from BOF I think, but then again a lot of those pre-production rumors weren't true. Who knows. I personally think it was a WB mandate considering what the costume designer said on the DVD.

Been a while since I watched those features... what was it they said, exactly?

I like going both ways.

Waffler.

Yeah, that could happen. But I'd still prefer Maroni over Moxon. If only for the fact that I feel if the Wayne's murder was pre-planned, it takes away from the tragedy that befell Bruce. Being random and all.

Yeah, arguably. I'm sort of on the fence with this one. But I think the thing you gain with Moxon, even if you don't like it, is still better than what you gain with Maroni.

Those plots could work, but none of those are really *big* moves. If Harvey is to be a prime player in ridding Gotham of its criminals, then I see him being on the top of the mob's hit-list. Taking him out would serve a purpose, whereas with Joker, would be more like a spur-of-the-moment type of thing.

Why would it be a spur-of-the-moment thing with Joker? I guess it depends on the interpretation of the Joker. Personally I don't think Nolan's Joker is gonna a completely random force. The best Joker stories tend to be the ones where he has a plan.

Consider that Joker isn't going to be able to just carry acid into the courtroom. If he gets it in there, it's a premeditated act to smuggle it in there. And in true Joker fashion he'd probably smuggle it in in pieces that had to be mixed. Which means a LOT of very, very careful premeditation.

Which means that it's not a spur-of-the-moment decision. At all.

I say single-handedly because I feel we make up one whole.

LOL. Sorry, The Guard is the Bizarro-world me. You're more like the anti-me.

Yeah, I just made that up.

LOL!!!

It was a rhetoric statement.

Well, if anything it was probably a rhetorical question, but, anyway...

Yes, but Guard has a good way of making his opinion be your opinion after he talks to you, thus to you it would be fact.

Then that makes you a sheep.

That's not really what Norm meant. What he meant is that The Guard is smarter than nearly everyone, and so even when he is wrong, it is nearly impossible to prove it.

 

[StorminNorman]

Then that makes you a sheep.

Bah Bah?

 

[Crooklyn]

Well, I think we agree on that. I think it's clear there was some sort of path, and not clear what sort of path it was. Ra's certainly gave Bruce a new path, which was the fastest track to Batman. I don't deny that. But it's quite possible that Bruce would have come to it on his own. I mean, in the comics he didn't choose the "Batman" persona until he got home to Gotham. The fear thing seemed to occur to him while he was chilling in his study. Like a light went on and he was all, "hrmmm... criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot." So basically I'm saying that if Ra's hadn't given that angle to him, it's still possible he would have come to it as he did in the comics.

Like I said before, perhaps. Thought I wouldn't directly compare Bruce from the comics, and the one from BB. 2 different people I'd say. Bale's Bruce had the skill, but didn't really know what to do with it. The difference with comic book Bruce is he seemed focused from the beginning, and KNEW he wanted to be a vigilante, but just didn't know how to go about doing it. It wasn't until he f'd up on his first night out, and saw the bat, that he decided to put on a costume.

Hell, it didn't bother me. Fear is one of Batman's weapons. I know there's other words for it, but really, I'd find it more annoying if they kept alternating between fear, terror, horror... especially considering that each of those words really has a different connotation, pertaining to different levels of fear. Sometimes the simplest word is the one that is most appropriate.

True, but I wish the dialogue hadn't been so elementary at times. It wasn't so much the use of 'fear', but the multiple variations of 'this is fear/know your fear/use the fear/overcome the fear' and all that. Got tedious imo.

Been a while since I watched those features... what was it they said, exactly?

I can't give you a direct quote, but the designer mentioned how there were definitely more materials out there that were more useful than the rubber, but they just didn't have the time to experiment. Which tells me that there were no tests outside of the same ol' rubber. Probably because WB figured it would save a whole lotta time to just go with what's been working.

Yeah, arguably. I'm sort of on the fence with this one. But I think the thing you gain with Moxon, even if you don't like it, is still better than what you gain with Maroni.

I'd take that over the Joker/Dent scarring, that's for sure. But both? My head would explode, I don't think I could take that.

Why would it be a spur-of-the-moment thing with Joker? I guess it depends on the interpretation of the Joker. Personally I don't think Nolan's Joker is gonna a completely random force. The best Joker stories tend to be the ones where he has a plan.

Consider that Joker isn't going to be able to just carry acid into the courtroom. If he gets it in there, it's a premeditated act to smuggle it in there. And in true Joker fashion he'd probably smuggle it in in pieces that had to be mixed. Which means a LOT of very, very careful premeditation.

Which means that it's not a spur-of-the-moment decision. At all.

Funnily enough, I think it'll depend on what Joker wears to the courtroom. Assuming he's a crazed maniac and all that, I always figured Joker would be put in a straight-jacket and nothing more to avoid any sort of problems.

That's an advantage in using Maroni, a suit would be normal attire, and a bottle of acid can easily be concealed in one.

That's not really what Norm meant. What he meant is that The Guard is smarter than nearly everyone, and so even when he is wrong, it is nearly impossible to prove it.

Perhaps he could explain it, but it read pretty clear to me; if you argue with Guard long enough, you'll be convinced to change your own opinion in favor of his.

Bah Bah?

OMG....I have that puppet in my old room.

 

[StorminNorman]

Perhaps he could explain it, but it read pretty clear to me; if you argue with Guard long enough, you'll be convinced to change your own opinion in favor of his.

Well just everything I said was a bit tongue in cheek. He is a damn good debater and if you don't have your ducks in a row you are going to get dismantled by him. Chances are you will still have you will still feel the same way, but you will certain understand where he comes from and will look upon your stance with much less stability.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Like I said before, perhaps. Thought I wouldn't directly compare Bruce from the comics, and the one from BB. 2 different people I'd say. Bale's Bruce had the skill, but didn't really know what to do with it. The difference with comic book Bruce is he seemed focused from the beginning, and KNEW he wanted to be a vigilante, but just didn't know how to go about doing it. It wasn't until he f'd up on his first night out, and saw the bat, that he decided to put on a costume.

Hard to know. The fact that he was studying martial arts and the criminal mind seems to imply he had something in mind. His initial disdain for Ra's would seem to imply that he had no use for vigilantism - probably his talk with Rachel saw to that. But on the other hand, Bruce seems to be willing to stretch the definition of vigilante. Since as Batman, he is one, but he seems to like to say otherwise. LOL. I suppose he learned that from Ra's.

On the other hand, I humbly submit that Bruce would not have responded so quickly to Ra's offer if he did not have something along these lines in mind already. Ra's even approached it that way. He even told Bruce that "a vigilante is just a man lost in the struggle for his own gratification," which pretty much describes what Bruce was doing in a Bhutanese prison to begin with.

True, but I wish the dialogue hadn't been so elementary at times. It wasn't so much the use of 'fear', but the multiple variations of 'this is fear/know your fear/use the fear/overcome the fear' and all that. Got tedious imo.

But every usage of it was meaningful, they weren't just tossed in there randomly.

I can't give you a direct quote, but the designer mentioned how there were definitely more materials out there that were more useful than the rubber, but they just didn't have the time to experiment. Which tells me that there were no tests outside of the same ol' rubber. Probably because WB figured it would save a whole lotta time to just go with what's been working.

Well, that's one way to look at it. On the other hand, if you put it with what we heard here - that they tested the fabric suits and they weren't working - you could just as easily come to the conclusion that, given more time, they'd have perfected the fabric suit, but a film has a schedule and since the rubber had worked before, it was the fallback solution.

I'd take that over the Joker/Dent scarring, that's for sure. But both? My head would explode, I don't think I could take that.

My advice? Bring duct tape to the theater.

Funnily enough, I think it'll depend on what Joker wears to the courtroom. Assuming he's a crazed maniac and all that, I always figured Joker would be put in a straight-jacket and nothing more to avoid any sort of problems.

Probably. Which is why the Joker would have to do it in parts. Do you remember the TAS episode "The Laughing Fish"? It was partly the comic story of that name, and partly "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge." If you've read FWR or have seen the TAS "Laughing Fish" episode you have a basic idea of what I have in mind.

That's an advantage in using Maroni, a suit would be normal attire, and a bottle of acid can easily be concealed in one.

Joker wouldn't have to carry anything into the courtroom. Vs. Maroni who has to carry a bottle of acid in past security.

Perhaps he could explain it, but it read pretty clear to me; if you argue with Guard long enough, you'll be convinced to change your own opinion in favor of his.

Hyperbole. Look it up.

 

[Crooklyn]

Hard to know. The fact that he was studying martial arts and the criminal mind seems to imply he had something in mind. His initial disdain for Ra's would seem to imply that he had no use for vigilantism - probably his talk with Rachel saw to that. But on the other hand, Bruce seems to be willing to stretch the definition of vigilante. Since as Batman, he is one, but he seems to like to say otherwise. LOL. I suppose he learned that from Ra's.

On the other hand, I humbly submit that Bruce would not have responded so quickly to Ra's offer if he did not have something along these lines in mind already. Ra's even approached it that way. He even told Bruce that "a vigilante is just a man lost in the struggle for his own gratification," which pretty much describes what Bruce was doing in a Bhutanese prison to begin with.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that. Nothing more to say on that front.

But every usage of it was meaningful, they weren't just tossed in there randomly.

I don't know if it was useful. You'd have gotten the point across just fine if it had been cut in half. Albeit the point wouldn't have been clear-cut, but that isn't exactly wrong.

Well, that's one way to look at it. On the other hand, if you put it with what we heard here - that they tested the fabric suits and they weren't working - you could just as easily come to the conclusion that, given more time, they'd have perfected the fabric suit, but a film has a schedule and since the rubber had worked before, it was the fallback solution.

...eh, perhaps. I figure if they had wanted to debar the rubber suit, more time would have been planned out.

Probably. Which is why the Joker would have to do it in parts. Do you remember the TAS episode "The Laughing Fish"? It was partly the comic story of that name, and partly "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge." If you've read FWR or have seen the TAS "Laughing Fish" episode you have a basic idea of what I have in mind.

You mean infect/poison Dent before the courtroom, and then "activate" it with another agent?

Hyperbole. Look it up.

There was nothing to suggest he wasn't serious, so I took it as such.

 

[Keyser Sushi]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that. Nothing more to say on that front.

Progress.

I don't know if it was useful. You'd have gotten the point across just fine if it had been cut in half. Albeit the point wouldn't have been clear-cut, but that isn't exactly wrong.

Bruce announces his intentions: "...to turn fear against those who prey on the fearful." It's important that Bruce says that. Ra's says, what, "what you fear is inside you." Okay, maybe Ra's didn't have to say that, but it does give some insight into Bruce's character. "To conquer your fear, you must become fear. You must back in the fears of other men."

The only one I can think of that could easily have been left out was, "Breathe. Breeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeathe. Breathe in your fears. Feel terror cloud your senses. Feel it's power to distort. You must become a terrible thought... a wraith. You have to become an idea!"

I guess that was designed to add atmosphere. It sorta does, but it could have worked just as well without it. Although I love the little chuckle I get out of "breeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeathe." I'd miss it if it wasn't there.

...eh, perhaps. I figure if they had wanted to debar the rubber suit, more time would have been planned out.

They really only have as much time as Warners gives them. Which means they have x number of weeks to work out the fabric suit and if it doesn't work then they have to solve it another way. I think if they really do go with a fabricky suit for TDK it'll be because they've had time now to get it where they want it.

You mean infect/poison Dent before the courtroom, and then "activate" it with another agent?

Basically, yeah. If the acid can be broken down into multiple, seemingly innocuous elements and delivered seperately, yielding the same basic result, that's probably the way he'd have to do it.

There was nothing to suggest he wasn't serious, so I took it as such.

Your first clue should have been that it was Norm who said it.

 

[The Guard]

There are definite differences between the proactive Bruce of the comics and the "I'm lost and angry, someone show me what to do" Bruce of the film. And while it can be argued that he may have come upon the idea of Batman without Ra's Al Ghul's intervention, the movie makes it pretty clear that Ra's is more or less the impetus for the shadowy, stealthy more-than-a-vigilante concept.

That's not really what Norm meant. What he meant is that The Guard is smarter than nearly everyone, and so even when he is wrong, it is nearly impossible to prove it.

Can I help it is all my arguments stem from boundless logic?

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

There are definite differences between the proactive Bruce of the comics and the "I'm lost and angry, someone show me what to do" Bruce of the film. And while it can be argued that he may have come upon the idea of Batman without Ra's Al Ghul's intervention, the movie makes it pretty clear that Ra's is more or less the impetus for the shadowy, stealthy more-than-a-vigilante concept.

And I think, for the movie, it works.

Would it have been nice to see Bruce sampling from a wide variety of teachers across the globe? Surely. We are told he studied the criminal mind, we are shown that he integrated himself into criminal society to better understand it, and when we meet him in the Bhutan prison, he can certainly take care of himself much better than any little rich boy (implying he has learned something in his travels). I think the gaps in his travels may be deliberate, and could be filled in with future flashbacks.

But inevitably, he would reach the same conclusion as he did under Ra's instruction. Attributing it (almost) solely with Ra's simply streamlines his progress and tightens the narrative. Keeping the focus on Ra's/Ducard for that first act is deliberate, he must be the crucial figure in Bruce's past in order for the finale to work. The whole movie centers on that relationship; it either works for you or it doesn't. It works for me.

But I think it also has to be noted that Ra's looked down upon what he considered "vigilantism." He even later mocks Bruce's Batman persona. Clearly, despite his teachings, "Batman" in whatever form it would've developed, is not what Ra's had in mind for Bruce (which was, of course, to lead the League). Bruce essentially twisted Ra's teachings to suit his own idea of what his war on crime will be like, which implies that he likely had some idea of what he wanted to do; Ra's teachings only made it clearer.

 

[Nepenthes]

Does your average movie goer watch BB and say, 'Oh, Bruce Wayne would NEVER be Batman without that Ra's Al Ghul fella! Therefore, my respect for Batman is diminshed!"....No. They don't. They complain about corny dialogue instead.

I'll take a good movie that general audiences can appreciate over a fanboy adaption anyday.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Thing about a fanboy adapatation is....you never know what'd you get. It could be a Frank Miller film, and Loeb fans like me would *****. You do a Loeb Batman.....and Miller fans will *****. People WILL be pissed no matter what. It is inevitable.

 

[The Kid]

I think that's an aesop fable.

 

[StorminNorman]

There was nothing to suggest he wasn't serious, so I took it as such.

Though you are quite intelligent, though often very wrong, and are quite a person to debate with, you are not The Guard.

Guard could say that the sky is green, that Kristen Kruek looks like a dog and that Batman is truly a pathetic wisp of a man and back it up with logic so foolproof that 40 people will send Ms. Kruek a dog collar the next day.

???

 

[Crooklyn]

I wasn't responding to that post.

 

[Darkest Knight]

Yeah well, "The Guard" once told me he would rather have had Wes Bently play Batman / Bruce Wayne in the current re-start franchise. And, uhhh, after seeing him in Ghost Rider (he's a piss poor actor), I'm not taking anything he says too seriously.

 

[Crooklyn]

LMAO, dawg I saw that sh1t yesterday and expressed the same sentiment. But to be fair, the script was HORRENDOUS and I don't think *anyone* could've done better with those lines.

Wes has been good in his previous roles, and has the better comic book look, but yeah...can't say after GR, that he's on top of my list.

 

[Miranda Fox]

Yeah well, "The Guard" once told me he would rather have had Wes Bently play Batman / Bruce Wayne in the current re-start franchise. And, uhhh, after seeing him in Ghost Rider (he's a piss poor actor), I'm not taking anything he says too seriously.

Well, to be fair, he used to be my pick for Bats a very long time ago back when Wes Bently was a good actor.